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  #61  
Old 10-01-2015, 09:47 PM
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RavYak RavYak is offline
 
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Originally Posted by xmastree View Post
Do you think they would fall in "by accident" on purpose. You have to prevent the accident or be liable, that's why a physical barrier is required.
The law does not state that you have to prevent a person from falling in.

The law states you have to prevent a person from accidentally falling in.

It is the exact same as the second point of that law regarding excavations. If you walk into a ribboned off excavation it wasn't an accident and the contractor who made the excavation will not be held liable.

ACA just needs to do their due diligence in making the aerator locations known and providing proper signs warning of thin ice in proximity to the aerator. If it is done right there is no way to fight it, just like you can't fight a speeding ticket by claiming you didn't read the sign...
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  #62  
Old 10-02-2015, 07:51 PM
xmastree xmastree is offline
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Originally Posted by RavYak View Post
The law does not state that you have to prevent a person from falling in.

The law states you have to prevent a person from accidentally falling in.

It is the exact same as the second point of that law regarding excavations. If you walk into a ribboned off excavation it wasn't an accident and the contractor who made the excavation will not be held liable.

ACA just needs to do their due diligence in making the aerator locations known and providing proper signs warning of thin ice in proximity to the aerator. If it is done right there is no way to fight it, just like you can't fight a speeding ticket by claiming you didn't read the sign...
There are pages of loopholes in your synopsis......just ribbon it off! All's well.
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  #63  
Old 10-03-2015, 12:20 AM
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There are pages of loopholes in your synopsis......just ribbon it off! All's well.
You don't believe signs and some sort of visible barrier is enough to protect against accident and warn people?

These methods are not new theories... They are standard practices seen every day in construction and traffic control etc... If you have a valid reason and explanation as to why aeration holes are any different then construction excavations and dangerous situations arising from roadwork etc I would love to hear them...

Don, do you have any info on the actual court case that has spurred these thoughts/actions? I would be interested to know what went down, my guess is that this is either an overreaction or that case must have been mishandled and if so hopefully was appealed.
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  #64  
Old 10-03-2015, 03:54 AM
Don Andersen Don Andersen is offline
 
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Originally Posted by RavYak View Post
You don't believe signs and some sort of visible barrier is enough to protect against accident and warn people?

These methods are not new theories... They are standard practices seen every day in construction and traffic control etc... If you have a valid reason and explanation as to why aeration holes are any different then construction excavations and dangerous situations arising from roadwork etc I would love to hear them...

Don, do you have any info on the actual court case that has spurred these thoughts/actions? I would be interested to know what went down, my guess is that this is either an overreaction or that case must have been mishandled and if so hopefully was appealed.
RayYsk,

All I heard it involved a snow machine. If and when I get details, I'll share.

But that begs the point. All that is require is exclusion fencing.


Don
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  #65  
Old 10-03-2015, 10:43 AM
xmastree xmastree is offline
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Originally Posted by Don Andersen View Post
RayYsk,

All I heard it involved a snow machine. If and when I get details, I'll share.

But that begs the point. All that is require is exclusion fencing.


Don
Right! - defining acceptable "exclusion fencing" will be the trick and then being able to apply it, hardly hang some ribbons - some people simply don't get it! Thankfully the ACA does seem to get it and is proceeding properly.
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  #66  
Old 10-03-2015, 12:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Don Andersen View Post
RayYsk,

All I heard it involved a snow machine. If and when I get details, I'll share.

But that begs the point. All that is require is exclusion fencing.


Don
Why do you have to go that far when no other industry does even when involving the same law?

Roadwork uses signs, cones and barricades to control open roadwork that could easily damage your vehicle and cause injury if you choose to ignore them and drive around them.

Construction excavations usually only have a red ribbon with tag if that is even done properly...

All 3 of these instances fall under the same law. A law that clearly states you only need to avoid accidents. Not that you have to fully defend against all levels of stupidity(something that can't be done)...

Most aerated lakes already have the odd warning sign near main access but very few have a visible warning system surrounding the aerators themselves. Add the visible warning system(think on par to construction ribbon, traffic cone, ocean buoy etc) and make sure everything is signed well and there is no way the ACA could be found liable given the legal wording of the law and its emphasis on the word accident.

Or maybe we need to build bunkers around the aerators and surround them with armed guards... That might work, someone would probably still find a way in though...
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  #67  
Old 10-03-2015, 01:11 PM
Don Andersen Don Andersen is offline
 
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[QUOTE=RavYak;2984582)

Or maybe we need to build bunkers around the aerators and surround them with armed guards... That might work, someone would probably still find a way in though...[/QUOTE]

W/O exception, laws and regulations are formulated to keep some of the population alive that Darwin would have dealt with. Till we face the fact that doing so is not only costly but reduces the possibility of human survival will we change.

Don
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  #68  
Old 10-03-2015, 04:25 PM
xmastree xmastree is offline
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Sure glad you are not in any position of authority there rav yak. Can't believe your thoughtless attitude.
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  #69  
Old 10-04-2015, 07:54 AM
SNAPFisher SNAPFisher is offline
 
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Sure glad you are not in any position of authority there rav yak. Can't believe your thoughtless attitude.
Hey all, just reminding everyone of the report feature to point out the rude trolls to admins. A quick look at the list of a users posts and/or glance at the date created on the account to back that up.

Back to topic:
Don, I think you posted elsewhere when/where ACA will be summarizing their thoughts/findings. Could you repost that here? Thanks!
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  #70  
Old 10-04-2015, 09:42 AM
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Once upon a time in a land far away a young boy named Todd lived with his mother near a beautiful lake that teemed with speckled trout during the summer. They were very poor and relied on the fish for food together with a few chickens and one cow that lived with them in the small ramshackle hut that was their home. But despite the sparseness of their existence they were happy and content.
Winter came early that year and the lake froze over quicker than usual depriving mother and boy of the food from the lake on which they had come to rely. Then the cow became sick and wolves from the surrounding hills came at night and carried off the family's chickens.
"Come, Todd," said his mother, "let us chip a hole through the ice and you can catch us a fish for our dinner."
"But mother," said Todd, "I am afraid that if we make a hole in the ice then the rich children who play hockey on the ice may fall in and be killed."
"You are a very thoughtful boy," said his mother. "Then we must build a fence around the hole and you can write a sign to warn the children." And so they set to work and by nighttime the hole was made, the wooden fence built and the sign made. "I'll just put some of the red ribbon from your sewing box on the fence too mother, so that everyone can see it."
"First thing in the morning you must catch us a fish, Todd," said his mother as they lay down to sleep.
That night Travis, a rich boy from the other side of the lake, snuck out of his bedroom to practise his hockey on the lake. He skated around shooting his puck and chasing after it. Then he saw the fence that hadn't been there before and shot the puck at it. But unfortunately for Travis there was a small hole at the bottom of the fence and the puck slid through.
"No," thought Travis, "I can't lose my puck," and so he scrambled over the fence in search of it. He wasn't very good at reading so he ignored the sign that Todd had made. But before he knew it he tripped on a board and fell through the thin layer of ice where the hole had been made.
Travis' body was found by the police early the next day after his parents had reported him missing in the night.
The police went to see Todd and his mother and Todd told them why they had made the hole in the ice and about the fence and the sign. "We did everything we could to make it safe," said Todd.
The policeman was an unkind grump of a man. "The law," he shouted, "is the law. You had a legal duty to guard that hole in a manner that is adequate to prevent persons from falling in by accident and is adequate to warn them that the opening exists. You clearly failed!"
And so Todd and his mother were both taken off to jail to face charges of manslaughter under Section 263 of the Criminal Code.
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  #71  
Old 10-04-2015, 10:04 AM
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Thank you for putting our world in proper prospective... an excellent post
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  #72  
Old 10-04-2015, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by PeterSL View Post
Once upon a time in a land far away a young boy named Todd lived with his mother near a beautiful lake that teemed with speckled trout during the summer. They were very poor and relied on the fish for food together with a few chickens and one cow that lived with them in the small ramshackle hut that was their home. But despite the sparseness of their existence they were happy and content.
Winter came early that year and the lake froze over quicker than usual depriving mother and boy of the food from the lake on which they had come to rely. Then the cow became sick and wolves from the surrounding hills came at night and carried off the family's chickens.
"Come, Todd," said his mother, "let us chip a hole through the ice and you can catch us a fish for our dinner."
"But mother," said Todd, "I am afraid that if we make a hole in the ice then the rich children who play hockey on the ice may fall in and be killed."
"You are a very thoughtful boy," said his mother. "Then we must build a fence around the hole and you can write a sign to warn the children." And so they set to work and by nighttime the hole was made, the wooden fence built and the sign made. "I'll just put some of the red ribbon from your sewing box on the fence too mother, so that everyone can see it."
"First thing in the morning you must catch us a fish, Todd," said his mother as they lay down to sleep.
That night Travis, a rich boy from the other side of the lake, snuck out of his bedroom to practise his hockey on the lake. He skated around shooting his puck and chasing after it. Then he saw the fence that hadn't been there before and shot the puck at it. But unfortunately for Travis there was a small hole at the bottom of the fence and the puck slid through.
"No," thought Travis, "I can't lose my puck," and so he scrambled over the fence in search of it. He wasn't very good at reading so he ignored the sign that Todd had made. But before he knew it he tripped on a board and fell through the thin layer of ice where the hole had been made.
Travis' body was found by the police early the next day after his parents had reported him missing in the night.
The police went to see Todd and his mother and Todd told them why they had made the hole in the ice and about the fence and the sign. "We did everything we could to make it safe," said Todd.
The policeman was an unkind grump of a man. "The law," he shouted, "is the law. You had a legal duty to guard that hole in a manner that is adequate to prevent persons from falling in by accident and is adequate to warn them that the opening exists. You clearly failed!"
And so Todd and his mother were both taken off to jail to face charges of manslaughter under Section 263 of the Criminal Code.
Another good reason to check your traplines early...
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  #73  
Old 10-04-2015, 04:31 PM
Don Andersen Don Andersen is offline
 
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Folks,

I am hoping to attend the Provincial Fisheries Rpindtable meeting Oct. 17 providing I can wrangle an invitation.
Todd Zimmerling the ACA CEO promised a handout detailing ACA activities. When I know what they plan, I will post the info. Hopefully to derail all the conspiracy issues that arise, the ACA will also
post to their web site the information.

The ACA is not alone in derailing aeration systems. The one @ Alford Lake was disabled some time ago by the Govt.

As the ACA and ESRD are responsible for this issue, it would strike me that both would detail their responses to the problem outlining both activities and time lines.

And to make matters worse, due to the lack to attention by the Govt. to the illegal perch stocking issue for the past 40 years, at least in the Rocky area there is no much left after the aeration lakes are toast.

A ****ty situation.


While PeterSL little story is somewhat true, during your travels admire all the "on land" holes that are barricaded with exclusion fencing to protect little Johhny from falling into a hole. The law is ECXACTLY THE SAME AND FOR LAND HOLES AND WATER HOLES.
Mind you, a sky diver could plunge into the hole. Oh My God, we gotta put a roof on things.

And now I can't wait for the carnage @ Gull Lake when the ice fishermen got to build exclusion fences around all them holes.

Enough idiocy, for the day.

Hope Trudeau legalizes weeds so we got something to do.


Don
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  #74  
Old 10-05-2015, 07:40 AM
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I'll come by & pick you up Don,for oct 17 mtg. Brian
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  #75  
Old 10-05-2015, 01:08 PM
Don Andersen Don Andersen is offline
 
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Brian,

I'll call ya.

Don
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  #76  
Old 10-06-2015, 12:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Don Andersen View Post
While PeterSL little story is somewhat true, during your travels admire all the "on land" holes that are barricaded with exclusion fencing to protect little Johhny from falling into a hole. The law is ECXACTLY THE SAME AND FOR LAND HOLES AND WATER HOLES.
Mind you, a sky diver could plunge into the hole. Oh My God, we gotta put a roof on things.
For every hole/trench that is exclusion fenced there is a multitude of ones that aren't.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterSL View Post
Once upon a time in a land far away a young boy named Todd lived with his mother near a beautiful lake that teemed with speckled trout during the summer. They were very poor and relied on the fish for food together with a few chickens and one cow that lived with them in the small ramshackle hut that was their home. But despite the sparseness of their existence they were happy and content.
Winter came early that year and the lake froze over quicker than usual depriving mother and boy of the food from the lake on which they had come to rely. Then the cow became sick and wolves from the surrounding hills came at night and carried off the family's chickens.
"Come, Todd," said his mother, "let us chip a hole through the ice and you can catch us a fish for our dinner."
"But mother," said Todd, "I am afraid that if we make a hole in the ice then the rich children who play hockey on the ice may fall in and be killed."
"You are a very thoughtful boy," said his mother. "Then we must build a fence around the hole and you can write a sign to warn the children." And so they set to work and by nighttime the hole was made, the wooden fence built and the sign made. "I'll just put some of the red ribbon from your sewing box on the fence too mother, so that everyone can see it."
"First thing in the morning you must catch us a fish, Todd," said his mother as they lay down to sleep.
That night Travis, a rich boy from the other side of the lake, snuck out of his bedroom to practise his hockey on the lake. He skated around shooting his puck and chasing after it. Then he saw the fence that hadn't been there before and shot the puck at it. But unfortunately for Travis there was a small hole at the bottom of the fence and the puck slid through.
"No," thought Travis, "I can't lose my puck," and so he scrambled over the fence in search of it. He wasn't very good at reading so he ignored the sign that Todd had made. But before he knew it he tripped on a board and fell through the thin layer of ice where the hole had been made.
Travis' body was found by the police early the next day after his parents had reported him missing in the night.
The police went to see Todd and his mother and Todd told them why they had made the hole in the ice and about the fence and the sign. "We did everything we could to make it safe," said Todd.
The policeman was an unkind grump of a man. "The law," he shouted, "is the law. You had a legal duty to guard that hole in a manner that is adequate to prevent persons from falling in by accident and is adequate to warn them that the opening exists. You clearly failed!"
And so Todd and his mother were both taken off to jail to face charges of manslaughter under Section 263 of the Criminal Code.
The charge of manslaughter would never hold up.

The parents have a legal obligation to supervise their child and a child's ignorance of the dangers and refusal to acknowledge the signs and barrier does not make it an accident.

Any lawyer would be able to argue that the hole was adequately guarded with sufficient warning signs and that the incident only happened due to improper supervision and a disregard for the safety measures put in place.

This is what I have been trying to tell you guys all along... The way this law is written you only have to guard and warn. You don't have to protect against each and every possibility(by children, blind people, dare devils etc). No matter how well you defend an aerator someone will find a way to fall in, all you have to be able to do is prove that there were sufficient barriers/signs in place to warn and deter people. If they choose to ignore those barriers/signs that is their problem.
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  #77  
Old 10-06-2015, 08:28 AM
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Originally Posted by RavYak View Post
For every hole/trench that is exclusion fenced there is a multitude of ones that aren't.



The charge of manslaughter would never hold up.

The parents have a legal obligation to supervise their child and a child's ignorance of the dangers and refusal to acknowledge the signs and barrier does not make it an accident.

Any lawyer would be able to argue that the hole was adequately guarded with sufficient warning signs and that the incident only happened due to improper supervision and a disregard for the safety measures put in place.

This is what I have been trying to tell you guys all along... The way this law is written you only have to guard and warn. You don't have to protect against each and every possibility(by children, blind people, dare devils etc). No matter how well you defend an aerator someone will find a way to fall in, all you have to be able to do is prove that there were sufficient barriers/signs in place to warn and deter people. If they choose to ignore those barriers/signs that is their problem.
Assuming you are not a lawyer and assuming the ACA does have one. Why haven't they confirmed your analysis of this situation? Why do they still intend to shut off all their aerators?
Perhaps there is more to this than some simple explanation such as yours would indicate.
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  #78  
Old 10-06-2015, 10:39 AM
PeterSL PeterSL is offline
 
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Reading section 263 of the Criminal Code would in itself suggest that, as RavYak says, "The way this law is written you only have to guard and warn."
However, The law in Canada is made of two parts: Legislation e.g. The Criminal Code, and Case Law. Both are primary sources for Canadian law.

Case law is made up of the written decisions of judges in court cases and tribunals. Case law comes from all levels of courts in Canada. Interpretation of legislation evolves over time from actual trials and appeals etc. i.e case law.

In this instance the case law suggests that if harm occurs as a result of making a hole in the ice at a place frequented by the public, then no matter what precautions were taken they were clearly not 'adequate' enough. The efforts of Todd and his mother to safeguard the hole might mitigate the liability but would likely not eliminate it. If you were CEO of the ACA would you then take a chance that all will be well and send out your staff to make holes in the ice? Would your staff be happy to take that risk?

The only solution I see is a change to the legislation. Hopefully the ACA will have some other solutions to report on Oct 17th, though I'm not optimistic. We may have to have an incident occur, a good lawyer, and a judge who values and applies the concept of 'due diligence'. Thereby, perhaps some case law can be established for reasonable as opposed to absolute responsibility regarding the lake aeration programs across Canada.

Last edited by PeterSL; 10-06-2015 at 10:41 AM. Reason: add info
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  #79  
Old 10-08-2015, 12:18 PM
Ayr Ayr is offline
 
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Enclosed style aerator recently installed and operating on a BC lake, bubbles gurgle out from the bottom of the enclosure. From observing it operate, it should freeze right up to the unit, eliminating open water, maintaining function. While several of you revel in your lofty status of MASTERdeBATERS, there may already be a relatively simple solution?



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Old 10-08-2015, 01:46 PM
PeterSL PeterSL is offline
 
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Looks like the one at Logan Lake, BC? If so, problem is cost. I understand it's about $400,000 to construct and install. There's some interesting photos of what equipment is under the ice in this system and what it takes to install it (Google Logan Lake Aeration). ACA could maybe afford to buy one from its current aeration budget - which lake would you pick?
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  #81  
Old 10-08-2015, 02:15 PM
tallieho tallieho is offline
 
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Well IMO;They ACA had better do something besides remove the aerators.Why are they removing them now.They should be adding as much aeration as possible before freeze up.Swan lk. used to be aerated right up to frozen lk.If they allow all of the aerated lakes to winterkill.Why would a guy buy a lic.,to fish for tiddlers.Curios has ACA called in Legal advise?Are they fear mongering/power struggle with ESRD.
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  #82  
Old 10-08-2015, 10:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterSL View Post
Case law is made up of the written decisions of judges in court cases and tribunals. Case law comes from all levels of courts in Canada. Interpretation of legislation evolves over time from actual trials and appeals etc. i.e case law.

In this instance the case law suggests that if harm occurs as a result of making a hole in the ice at a place frequented by the public, then no matter what precautions were taken they were clearly not 'adequate' enough.
PeterSL, I know how law and case law works.

What I don't know is the case law in this situation and it seems that no one here does although judging by your claims either you know something the rest of us do not or are making some pretty big assumptions.

Until someone can post some information regarding the court case I will continue to believe this is an over exaggeration to potential risk. The reason I am doing so is because the people that write laws are very careful on how they word things and this law was clearly written in a way to relieve the hole creator of liability if it is deemed adequate warning and protection was supplied. My guess is that the aerator in this case did not have a barrier(most don't) but that is just my guess until proven otherwise.

And yeah if they get rid of our aerators trout fishing is going to really go downhill. We have very few good lakes as it is let alone if they turn the aerators off.
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  #83  
Old 10-09-2015, 10:07 AM
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Mitchell Lake ones are running right now. I haven't even gotten a nibble - so thought I'd post instead.
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  #84  
Old 10-09-2015, 04:04 PM
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It'll be a crying shame if they turn off the airators at Muir. Both are running right now.
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Old 10-10-2015, 10:34 AM
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My understanding is that ACA is now operating as many aerators as possible to get as much O2 into the water as they can prior to ice-up. At that time based on the legal advice of criminal lawyers that they cannot ignore they will shut them off again.
There is an item on the Alberta Fisheries Roundtable Agenda for Oct 17th 'Future of Lake Aeration'. The purpose is to 'Discuss the legal situation with respect to aeration activities, implications for projects and future directions'.
With that information we can hopefully mobilize support through this forum to help ACA get necessary changes to the law or whatever else is needed to save the aeration program in Alberta and maybe elsewhere.
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Old 10-10-2015, 05:22 PM
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I plan to be there Peter. Brian. Hopefully Don A. can join us.
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  #87  
Old 10-11-2015, 09:41 PM
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I am not joking when I say this but... Could sterile grass carp be the solution? I mean, a lot of oxygen depletion comes from vegetation decomposition. And although we are introducing these species into select lakes (maybe one to start off with for an test), the damage they may do is only short term if it is not successful.
You can say vegetation is a habit for aquatic insects, and this reduction will throw the ecosystem off for a bit in sure, but none of the stocked lakes are natural fish populations, so why not for an experiment.

I'm just bsing here so don't take my comment too seriously, but it's something to think about.
The grass carp program in Alberta has been cancelled. DFO and the federal agriculture group have created a new introduced and exotic species act. The intent is to provide better control and legislations with respect to introduced exotic species. Its mostly targeted at the exotic invaders. However, grass carp show up in this legislation as prohibited. Therefore they are no longer available anywhere in Alberta and because the act is federal they are actually prohibited Canada wide.
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  #88  
Old 10-12-2015, 09:04 AM
Don Andersen Don Andersen is offline
 
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I have contacted Todd Zemmerling with information provided to me in casual conversations with others about systems that worked elsewhere.

1) at Spring Lake near Hythe, AB a vacuum truck on "blow" kept the lake alive over one winter.

2) a fellow fisherman told me of a "backyard engineered" aeration system utilizing a jet ski pump, a small motor Plus suction and discharge lines kept two lakes alive in Ontario. The equipment was featured on the Discovery network.

I also told Todd that pretty systems weren't gonna solve this winter's problems. Quick and dirty would. Leave the pretty designs to an engineering firm. Biologists are not trained for these type of problems.

Winter is coming - sitting and talking is just not cutting it.

I expect the ACA will deliver a competent action plan detailing both short term and longer term items to be presented at the Fisheries Roundtable. The plan must detail time lines and deliverables.

Further, ERSD similarly shares responsibility here. The loss of the aeration lakes are going to replaced with WHAT! After most of the local lakes being perched, there isn't a whole lot left. So I expect that they MUST PROVIDE AN ACTION PLAN to fix the lake trout fishery.

Failure by either the ACA or ESRD to deal with the issues in our trout lakes must result in some type of remedial action to one or both groups.

Regards,


Don
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  #89  
Old 10-12-2015, 02:45 PM
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I pray to God that they figure something out. It would be a massive loss to our trout fisheries if they stop the aeration programs. Would be a huge waste of money.
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  #90  
Old 10-14-2015, 09:11 AM
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Default Signage

By banning winter activity and spending some money posting the liability and the danger involved accessing these areas you put the responsibility on the citizen who is entering the lake. If the signs are very visible and very descriptive in regards to outlining the hazards you put the onus on the person(s). I don't believe that changing an environment due to a fault in human behavior is the answer. We all have a responsibility every day out in the field, driving or even walking from point A to point B. There are rules that must be followed in order to preserve life. Not aerating lakes because Joe Blow decides to get half torqued and run his skidoo onto thin ice is the wrong answer. When does it stop? We cannot bubble wrap and soften corners in life every time someone has blatant disregard for the law. RESPONSIBILITY is the key! This is my opinion and is somewhat my field of work. Cold winters happen, lakes can be choked out by vegetation and algae bloom lets let mother nature decide the result.
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