Good 3wts?

[Troutmonk]

Originally Posted by draytonv

You are definitely right. You can't expect that the gear you use will make you a better angler or catch more fish. However, you do notice a significant difference in performance and ease of casting.
I suggested the sage one because a 3 weight serves a very specific application so assumed you would be looking for high performance. I personally wouldn't buy a 3 weight unless it was top of the line, which is why I don't have one yet lol.
That being said there are many price points offered by the main American made companies (Sage, Orvis, Winston)

Thanks Draytonv for your discussion with me. In my previous post I wrote "better" when I think I should've used the word "more expensive" because the two are not always synonymous. I have checked on forums and done a lot of research other than anecdotal reasons why are the american made blanks are better, can anyone give me an understanding on how the American blanks are empirically superior?

[badger]

Originally Posted by Troutmonk

I asked the question about which rod people like so I can't be entirely surprised that people are voicing their rod preference. What is surprising to me is how often I encounter the myth that better gear = better angler; Better gear = more/better fish.

You do not fish lakes? Casting distance makes a lot of difference and if you cast farther all day, you will catch more fish. A lot more fish. The better rod and line will make a difference. Better rods and lines cost more. If you can't afford top line rods, build from blanks saving 50% or buy used.

The difference on flowing water is less, but better rods can put the fly into more places. I test cast Pieroway at the last show and nothing special about their rods other than the bling which I don't want.

[Pikebreath]

Originally Posted by badger

You do not fish lakes? Casting distance makes a lot of difference and if you cast farther all day, you will catch more fish. A lot more fish. The better rod and line will make a difference. Better rods and lines cost more. If you can't afford top line rods, build from blanks saving 50% or buy used.

The difference on flowing water is less, but better rods can put the fly into more places. I test cast Pieroway at the last show and nothing special about their rods other than the bling which I don't want.

Put any $100 rod on the market today in the hands of a good caster and I can guarantee you that angler will out fish a poor caster with the $800 rod.

90% of the rods today regardless of the price are likely better than 90% of the casters using them,,, that includes Pieroway rods.

[Bhflyfisher]

You've got a minimum of 3 months, or 6 months (April 1, June 16) before this 3wt is usable.

I urge you to join a few forums (Calgary, BC, Alberta), shop around in their classifieds, and look at a used 3wt. You can get a lot more rod in the off season then you can buying low end new. Ebay is also a great place to look for previous years models, usually brand new at very good prices. Old sage VXPs, XPs, Zaxis, can sometimes be had for less than 350$.

However, if you're still hell bent on buying new immediately, my vote goes in for the redington line up of the Hydrogen, classic trout (this one especially has been talked about since it first came out as being one of the best low end sticks you'll ever buy), or butterstick if fibreglass suits your fancy. Lifetime warranty on all them. All great sticks, stand up company that wont sell you on their bling.

[badger]

Originally Posted by Pikebreath

Put any $100 rod on the market today in the hands of a good caster and I can guarantee you that angler will out fish a poor caster with the $800 rod.

90% of the rods today regardless of the price are likely better than 90% of the casters using them,,, that includes Pieroway rods.

That's not the point. A good caster will still cast farther and catch more with a good rod. Yes a poor fisherman will do poorly no matter what equipment.

[Troutmonk]

Originally Posted by Bhflyfisher

You've got a minimum of 3 months, or 6 months (April 1, June 16) before this 3wt is usable.

I urge you to join a few forums (Calgary, BC, Alberta), shop around in their classifieds, and look at a used 3wt. You can get a lot more rod in the off season then you can buying low end new. Ebay is also a great place to look for previous years models, usually brand new at very good prices. Old sage VXPs, XPs, Zaxis, can sometimes be had for less than 350$.

However, if you're still hell bent on buying new immediately, my vote goes in for the redington line up of the Hydrogen, classic trout (this one especially has been talked about since it first came out as being one of the best low end sticks you'll ever buy), or butterstick if fibreglass suits your fancy. Lifetime warranty on all them. All great sticks, stand up company that wont sell you on their bling.

Thanks again for everyone's vigorous feedback. But, I would like to make clear a couple things. I was not "sold on pieroway's bling". I am not a child attracted by shiny things. I also did do massive amounts of research.Looking at brand blank sourcing across cost brackets, I have casted and re-casted many different brands, and I have talk with satisfied and unsatisfied customers of a lot the brands mentioned already in this thread. But, still in this thread people have only provided anecdotal evidence to support their claims of rod blank superiority. What makes one carbon fibre rod better than another, for lack of a better word, scientifically?

G.Loomis from what I understand uses a manufacturer in South Korea to produce its blanks. Yet, they are still a heavily favoured rod company? Do they just have an inferior product that they have convinced consumer's to purchase at a premium? Or is it that the blanks that they get from south korea are quality blanks that are worth the money? And if they find quality blanks in asia is it not possible that other rod makers can as well?

[Troutmonk]

Sorry in my previous post i wrote G.loomis were manufactured in south korea when I meant to write Loop.

[rycoma]

Originally Posted by draytonv

That's a great way to break a rod. 3 weights are designed for small dry flies and very light presentation.

Thats nice but I have been doing this for a long time man and if casting a nymph rig that weighs a few ounces is going to break a rod god forbid you catch a couple pound fish on it. I haven't broken a rod ever fishing the way I do. As for cheap rods compared to expensive rods just check out some of the private testing done by yellow stone where echo's base series rod (-100$) beat out some 800/900$ sage rods. I dont like super fast action rods never have and never will nor do I ever require a cast longer the 40 or 50 feet
O.P. buy what you like and what you can afford fish how you like.

[draytonv]

The main reason I support American made product is for their attention to detail. I’m not saying everything made in Asia is inferior but in the fly fishing industry it does seem to make a difference. For example, many people are ecstatic about TFO offering warranty where you can simply break a section and pick a new one up at the warehouse. While this is convenient all they are doing are mass producing rods and throwing a random piece on yours. If you break a section a section of you Sage rod you send it back to them where they will hand make a piece that fits the exact measurements to your specific rod. Another example is Hardy. Look at what happened to their reels when they decided to have them manufactured in Asia.
The Sage-One has some of the newest technology in the industry, which allows it to track better and cast truer. However, Sage is known for their fast-action rods, if you prefer a slower action maybe you should consider a different brand.

[jeprli]

Carbon sheet and glue, so much for technology.
All rods are handmade.

What matters is taper, it either suits you or it doesn't, whether it be 1000 or 50 bucks.

Heck my favorite rod for casting is built on a $30 no name blank, 3wt 6'6". Before it I had a 3wt built on a $250 cts blank. Every time I fish with these two rods the cheaper one gets most action while my friends try to "feel" what top of the line blank can do for them. Yes I out fish them every time

[Troutmonk]

Originally Posted by jeprli

Carbon sheet and glue, so much for technology.
All rods are handmade.

What matters is taper, it either suits you or it doesn't, whether it be 1000 or 50 bucks.

Heck my favorite rod for casting is built on a $30 no name blank, 3wt 6'6". Before it I had a 3wt built on a $250 cts blank. Every time I fish with these two rods the cheaper one gets most action while my friends try to "feel" what top of the line blank can do for them. Yes I out fish them every time

I like your style

[jeprli]

Originally Posted by draytonv

The main reason I support American made product is for their attention to detail. I’m not saying everything made in Asia is inferior but in the fly fishing industry it does seem to make a difference. For example, many people are ecstatic about TFO offering warranty where you can simply break a section and pick a new one up at the warehouse. While this is convenient all they are doing are mass producing rods and throwing a random piece on yours. If you break a section a section of you Sage rod you send it back to them where they will hand make a piece that fits the exact measurements to your specific rod. Another example is Hardy. Look at what happened to their reels when they decided to have them manufactured in Asia.
The Sage-One has some of the newest technology in the industry, which allows it to track better and cast truer. However, Sage is known for their fast-action rods, if you prefer a slower action maybe you should consider a different brand.

I highly doubt sage or any other rod manufacturer has a mandrel for every single rod they make. More like test fit a few pieces until they find one that fits your rod, if not they can always modify ferrules to make it fit correctly. Same can be done at TFO shop in Calgary.

American made means nothing, more like assembled in US if that is even the case. There are few companies who build from scratch but Sage is definitely not one of them.

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by jeprli

I highly doubt sage or any other rod manufacturer has a mandrel for every single rod they make. More like test fit a few pieces until they find one that fits your rod, if not they can always modify ferrules to make it fit correctly. Same can be done at TFO shop in Calgary.

American made means nothing, more like assembled in US if that is even the case. There are few companies who build from scratch but Sage is definitely not one of them.

I am not rushing to the defence of Sage rods but they are all designed and manufactured in the USA. They do have some rods that are assembled elsewhere; they call them Redington.

American made does mean something although ignorance is bliss. I truly enjoyed fishing a TFO Signature Series until I got my hands on a ZXL for stream fishing. AND yes I do hook and land more fish with it as it sets a tiny fly down like it has burnt feet and protects light tippet like no other rod I have fished with.

Having said that, it is the designer/design of the taper and the science that went into the blank. I love all of the Generation 5 Sage rods but have little use for the new Konnetic rods. Not saying there is something wrong with them, they are just faster than I like in the ones I have tried and lack feel. I did like the 3 weight ONE but it felt like a fast 4 in my hands.

I was very impressed with the Echo3 in 3 weight as well but again it felt like a 4 to me.

All overseas rods are certainly not equal and as mentioned above the rods coming out of South Korea are arguably the best rods made today. I have a Hardy Zenith that IMO (and many others) is the best 5 weight rod ever assembled. My son fishes the Loop Opti-Stream and it too is out standing.

Anywho, if I was in the market for a 3 weight, I would go Orvis Superfine. This is based entirely on research but I have spent hours reading forums and blogs and it seems like a good fit for me. I would want it exclusively for very small stream cuts and brookies.

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by Troutmonk

Thanks again for everyone's vigorous feedback. But, I would like to make clear a couple things. I was not "sold on pieroway's bling". I am not a child attracted by shiny things. I also did do massive amounts of research.Looking at brand blank sourcing across cost brackets, I have casted and re-casted many different brands, and I have talk with satisfied and unsatisfied customers of a lot the brands mentioned already in this thread. But, still in this thread people have only provided anecdotal evidence to support their claims of rod blank superiority. What makes one carbon fibre rod better than another, for lack of a better word, scientifically?

G.Loomis from what I understand uses a manufacturer in South Korea to produce its blanks. Yet, they are still a heavily favoured rod company? Do they just have an inferior product that they have convinced consumer's to purchase at a premium? Or is it that the blanks that they get from south korea are quality blanks that are worth the money? And if they find quality blanks in asia is it not possible that other rod makers can as well?

G.Loomis, Hardy, Loop etc. do not get generic blanks out of Asia and piece rods together. They have the best anglers/designers in the world that work directly with the manufacturer to manufacture their rods. The factories are set up exclusively for their tapers and the patented materials used are NOT available to anyone that has a telephone, some cork and Chinese components.

You seem to be asking questions that you already think you know the answers to. Pieroway is all about "bling" as they have no say in the taper or rod design. They shop for product like the rest of us. They do put together a decent set up and you will no doubt get years of enjoyment out of one of their rods.

BTW, it is the employment of these great designers and the research that goes into materials that jacks the price up on rods. Months of time and millions of dollars are spent before top tier rods hit the market. Knock offs, not so much.

[rycoma]

It boils down to what you like and what you want out of a rod. I can't afford a 7 to 8 hundred dollar rod. I dont envy any one who does. I dont care how many hours the manufacturer says they spent on blank design it doesnt justify that kind of money. When it takes 3 to 4 months to get your rod back is absolute trash for the price paid. Orvis only offering 25 year warranties more garbage. I can and do catch a ton of fish with a 175$ rod. Why because I have extensive practice with it and am comfortable with my set up. Spending outrageous amounts of money on a set just because is stupid. Telling someone there set up is garbage or sub standard because it was built somewhere other then Merica is what is wrong with fly fishing these days. Stating that if you enjoy your rod and it was expensive enjoy it. Enjoy the sport for the sport not the $$$ spent on it.

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by rycoma

It boils down to what you like and what you want out of a rod. I can't afford a 7 to 8 hundred dollar rod. I dont envy any one who does. I dont care how many hours the manufacturer says they spent on blank design it doesnt justify that kind of money. When it takes 3 to 4 months to get your rod back is absolute trash for the price paid. Orvis only offering 25 year warranties more garbage. I can and do catch a ton of fish with a 175$ rod. Why because I have extensive practice with it and am comfortable with my set up. Spending outrageous amounts of money on a set just because is stupid. Telling someone there set up is garbage or sub standard because it was built somewhere other then Merica is what is wrong with fly fishing these days. Stating that if you enjoy your rod and it was expensive enjoy it. Enjoy the sport for the sport not the $$$ spent on it.

I would never pay $700 to $800 myself but that doesn't mean you cant have and enjoy the best rods, you just cant have them today.

I bought my Zenith on closeout in the States when the dollar was high for 50% of retail. I picked up my Z-Axis for $250 used. I got my ZXL from the Fishing Hole on closeout. My Xi2 was off of Kijiji for $150 as new with card (score of the year).

One just needs to be patient AND I truly enjoyed fishing cheaper rods while I was waiting.

[brewster29]

I am no expert on 3 wt rods...but I do know a thing or two about catching trout!
I use a 4 wt. I have some high end rods (Powell, Sage, Winston) but I usually find I am just as happy with my St.Croix Imperials as anything. I often have to bushwhack to fish streams and do worry somewhat about breaking the high buck stuff. St. Croix Imperial has a lifetime no fault warranty, can find them on sale for about 160-170 CDN, plus they are made in the USA. You can get Chinese made stuff for the same price if you like.

My biggest fish on the 4 wt is a 14 lb bull trout- which I will admit was way too heavy for that rod.

That is my nickel's worth.

[jeprli]

There is good American made stuff, but let's not get carried away.

Millions spent on development, months of research...All these "manufacturers" that claim the best and greatest in fly rod development are using exact same ingredients from same suppliers.

No one has come up with anything revolutionary since introduction of carbon in fly rod building. This leads me to believe that these manufacturers have only the tapers to their name everything else is sourced when it comes to rod building/manufacturing.

Not one of these highly praised mass production companies makes one rod at a time, it has to be cost effective so it's done in batches. When you produce in batches quality suffers. It does not matter where production is located.

I'm not in love with any brand, an I am not trying to say $800 rods suck, but for that price it is ridiculous to consider paying when money invested into it is maybe 5% of retail price.

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by jeprli

There is good American made stuff, but let's not get carried away.

Millions spent on development, months of research...All these "manufacturers" that claim the best and greatest in fly rod development are using exact same ingredients from same suppliers.

No one has come up with anything revolutionary since introduction of carbon in fly rod building. This leads me to believe that these manufacturers have only the tapers to their name everything else is sourced when it comes to rod building/manufacturing.

Not one of these highly praised mass production companies makes one rod at a time, it has to be cost effective so it's done in batches. When you produce in batches quality suffers. It does not matter where production is located.

I'm not in love with any brand, an I am not trying to say $800 rods suck, but for that price it is ridiculous to consider paying when money invested into it is maybe 5% of retail price.

You should watch this video so you will have some idea what you are talking about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Osz4DpVjomA

G Loomis

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCFJG_HNBjs

Sage

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiH9edxvbKc

[rycoma]

Have a look at echo's video. He tests some of those blanks to the max it is quite amazing how far those can bend before they snap. Really impressive.

[Pikebreath]

What so many high end rod lovers fail to realize is the natural progression of a fly fisherman is typically to start out with an inexpensive rod and learn to flyfish with that. Of course you suck at first and your first feeble attempts to cast is what you remember. However, if you stick with flyfishing you will improve both in your casting and in fishing skills. So now you buy a high end rod and your first impressions are far more favourable becuz you actually can cast. Of course as you continue to improve your skills you become more and more convinced it is the rod making a better fisherman.

If you and I use identical lines and flies and the same size rods but of differing brands / price points,,, and you catch more fish than me, it is becuz you are better angler. If we switched rods you would still outfish me!!!

[jeprli]

I know how rods are made, that's why I don't buy into the hype. At one point I did but those days are gone.

Those videos show nothing new or exceptionally advanced to justify the price. As you can see for yourself in your examples.

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by jeprli

I know how rods are made, that's why I don't buy into the hype. At one point I did but those days are gone.

Those videos show nothing new or exceptionally advanced to justify the price. As you can see for yourself in your examples.

If you would read instead of looking to argue you will see that I don't agree with the prices myself and refuse to pay full price for them. I buy used and on closeout deals.

If you can't tell the difference between a Chinese mass produced rod and a hand crafted top tier rod then all power to you. Like I also mentioned already, ignorance is bliss and very much cheaper.

I'm an old guy now and can afford some things that are impractical. I don't shoot more ducks when using a $200 duck call and $150 a dozen decoys, I just enjoy having them. If need be I will sell them AND actually get something for them.

The same thing goes for my fly rods. They are worth in used condition more than what I paid for them. If I get too old to walk or get tired of them I will sell them.

People think buying quality costs more. It does not and in fact the opposite is most often true. I can't afford anymore junk but am okay buying the good stuff. Save some money and be ready when a good deal comes along. If you know your prices/quality you can sell them and be out nothing.

I have hunted and fished with some of the best rifles, shotguns and fly rods money can buy over the last 20 years. Many I knew I could not afford to keep but I enjoyed using them and it most often made me money owning them.

[Troutmonk]

I just want to thank everyone who has participated in this thread. It is an example of why I like this forum so much. Lively discussion about something we are all passionate about. And, hopefully some learning as well.

[draytonv]

Originally Posted by rycoma

Thats nice but I have been doing this for a long time man and if casting a nymph rig that weighs a few ounces is going to break a rod god forbid you catch a couple pound fish on it. I haven't broken a rod ever fishing the way I do. As for cheap rods compared to expensive rods just check out some of the private testing done by yellow stone where echo's base series rod (-100$) beat out some 800/900$ sage rods. I dont like super fast action rods never have and never will nor do I ever require a cast longer the 40 or 50 feet
O.P. buy what you like and what you can afford fish how you like.

I would be curious to know why you would purchase a 3 wt if your intention is to fish with streamers or nymphs. In my opinion it's designed for small dry flies.

[jeprli]

Please don't take it personally. I understand how someone can appreciate well crafted items, nothing against that. if you are able to hunt down heavy discounts then more power to you. Making it even or making a buck on resale makes it that much sweeter. My brother in law does similar thing with motorcycles. Gets to enjoy a new toy an keeps money in his pocket. Nothing wrong with that in fact it sounds like a healthy hobby.

3wt rod can handle a streamer just like any other weight rod provided that size is appropriate .

[rycoma]

Originally Posted by draytonv

I would be curious to know why you would purchase a 3 wt if your intention is to fish with streamers or nymphs. In my opinion it's designed for small dry flies.

I don't most of the time but if I need to or come across a pool with trout showing me their sides on the bottom its time to drop a nymph. Or on my way back to my truck swinging a streamer into brush piles. I would rather have the abillity to do it once in awhile. Then not being able to dry fly fish for rising skitish trout. Also every stream in alberta can be effectively fished with 30' casts. You can pretty much do anything with any rod just adjust you casting stroke. I enjoy walking all day and really don't feel like carrying 2 rods. How long have you fly fished for? Not being a jerk just curious. If its less then 30 years maybe you could learn a thing or two.

[Bhflyfisher]

Originally Posted by jeprli

I highly doubt sage or any other rod manufacturer has a mandrel for every single rod they make. More like test fit a few pieces until they find one that fits your rod, if not they can always modify ferrules to make it fit correctly. Same can be done at TFO shop in Calgary.

American made means nothing, more like assembled in US if that is even the case. There are few companies who build from scratch but Sage is definitely not one of them.

Have you even been into the sage factory? Or ever even dealt with their warranty over long periods of time? You second part to your post clearly indicates you never have, or ever will.

Their warranty process takes 2-3 weeks, and it does indeed take longer if they have to remake the blank from scratch. They do actually this. Give them a call. They're more than happy to explain in explicit detail how they do that.

I think you need to do some more research rather than just spouting off BS, its clear you dont have a factual based idea as to what you're talking about.

[Pikebreath]

The point being missed in all this is that in today's fly rod market, there are very few duds regardless of the price point and origin. The incremental increase in performance for $600-1000 rods compared to rods that retail in the $200-400 range is marginal at best.

I will reiterate my earlier point that any good caster / angler should be able pick up any rod retailing above $100 today and with a few casts, be able to adjust to the rod and fish with it quite successfully.

We are very lucky that as fly anglers we have such a wide choice of good rods in a wide range of price points to suit most every angler's budgets, casting style, needs and wants.

A Mercedes Benz is nicer vehicle than a Ford Focus, but that doesn't make the Ford Focus a piece of crap either. And at the end of the day, a Ford Focus still gets you to the same place as a Mercedes Benz will.

[Pikebreath]

Originally Posted by MK2750

If you would read instead of looking to argue you will see that I don't agree with the prices myself and refuse to pay full price for them. I buy used and on closeout deals.

You do realize that for the same money you can buy lifetime warranty on TFO Echo, or Reddington etc which you do not get with a sage loomis loop etc used rod?

And yesterday's high end rod design is OFTEN today's Asian made rod?