2 stroke or 4 stroke

[EZM]

Originally Posted by Penner

The older generation 15hp 2-strokes are ~75lbs. The new generation E-Tecs are huge and way heavier but I do not believe the where intended to power smaller truck toppers but rather to be kickers on larger boats.

Agreed. The Evinrude HO 15 is definitely more of a kicker or primary propulsion motor that is meant to stay in place. Wrestling 182lbs would be pretty tough - so I'd agree with you there.

The 9.8 Evinrude is a better, and more fair comparison, but really not much lighter I guess was my point.

For a kicker, or a small portable primary, there are so many great options with the advantages of a clean, light weight and quiet 4 stroke.

[coyotezh]

Originally Posted by EZM

Agreed. The Evinrude HO 15 is definitely more of a kicker or primary propulsion motor that is meant to stay in place. Wrestling 182lbs would be pretty tough - so I'd agree with you there.

The 9.8 Evinrude is a better, and more fair comparison, but really not much lighter I guess was my point.

For a kicker, or a small portable primary, there are so many great options with the advantages of a clean, light weight and quiet 4 stroke.

Could you please give some examples? What's the best portable in your mind, sir?

[EZM]

Originally Posted by coyotezh

Could you please give some examples? What's the best portable in your mind, sir?

If I was shopping for a portable I'd get a Honda or Yamaha myself. I've owned lots of outboards over the years, big and small, new and old and I like when the engine starts easy, starts every time, never breaks down and provides worry free and bullet proof reliability. All of my Yamahas and Hondas have been great.

If I had to choose - I guess I have had the best luck with the Hondas. Simple technology and easy to find parts if you ever need something (mostly maintenance as I've never actually had one fail).

A 9.9 hp, 15 hp or even a 20 hp weigh 103lbs. They are unbelievably light.

I think it is the lightest 4 stroke 20 hp engine (that I'm aware of) AND you get bullet proof reliability and a one pull start. Those are important features for a portable.

Also a very quiet engine that burns super clean.

I really don't have a single bad thing to say about them.

That's my recommendation and my opinion.

[lsxfirebird]

1-2strokes do not burn twice the gas, yes the are jetted pig rich from the factory for warrenty purposes to prevent detonation, once tuned they are almost as efficient as a 4 stroke, the newer etecs especially

2-the newer 2 stroke etecs beat hondas 4 stroke in emission testing so no 2 strokes are not going anywhere...

3-yes they make make the same "peak" power a 4 stroke will never make the same power under the curve.

Go with an older Johnson/evinrude you will not be disappointed! Parts are plenty and cheap operating costs are as low as you can get and they are reliable

[EZM]

Originally Posted by lsxfirebird

1-2strokes do not burn twice the gas, yes the are jetted pig rich from the factory for warrenty purposes to prevent detonation, once tuned they are almost as efficient as a 4 stroke, the newer etecs especially

2-the newer 2 stroke etecs beat hondas 4 stroke in emission testing so no 2 strokes are not going anywhere...

3-yes they make make the same "peak" power a 4 stroke will never make the same power under the curve.

Go with an older Johnson/evinrude you will not be disappointed! Parts are plenty and cheap operating costs are as low as you can get and they are reliable

I am curious where you read/researched that the 2 stroke Evinrude beats Honda (a 4 stroke) in emissions (or any 4 stroke on the market for that matter).

I was under the impression that is simply impossible given the simple fact your ignition (power) stroke is burning and exhausting oil as a part of the fuel mix itself.

Maybe I'm wrong .... BUT ....I'd love to see the data.

[Redneck Tommy]

Originally Posted by EZM

I am curious where you read/researched that the 2 stroke Evinrude beats Honda (a 4 stroke) in emissions (or any 4 stroke on the market for that matter).

I was under the impression that is simply impossible given the simple fact your ignition (power) stroke is burning and exhausting oil as a part of the fuel mix itself.

Maybe I'm wrong .... BUT ....I'd love to see the data.

The e-tec Injects it's oil directly to the bearings it not an gas oil mixture like traditional 2 strokes so it has no more emissions than 4 strokes but can be made lighter for the same hp because it needs less displacement to make the same hp

[lsxfirebird]

http://forums.cycleworld.com/showthread.php?t=130411

Feel free to have a little read about a modern 2 stroke before you make yourself look stupid. Once you are sone that let me know and i will pm you the actual lab test head to head on a etec vs honda

[EZM]

Originally Posted by lsxfirebird

http://forums.cycleworld.com/showthread.php?t=130411

Feel free to have a little read about a modern 2 stroke before you make yourself look stupid. Once you are sone that let me know and i will pm you the actual lab test head to head on a etec vs honda

Be respectful, don't assume the people you are talking to over your keyboard are not well educated professionals, or graduate degreed engineers, with years of experience and you won't get lit up.

I asked a question - and would love to see the data.

A link to another forum isn't data. It's more opinions and more keyboard heroics and cut n paste ads/propaganda from the manufacturer.

I'm asking a question - not picking a fight - We don't need that here.

I am genuinely interested - let's see the data. Maybe I will learn something new. Nothing wrong with that.

Let's have a look.

[lsxfirebird]

Well its not cut and paste add propaganda, i am at work which is why i said pm me becuase by the time i get back on the 8th this thread will be long forgotten. Here is the epa page with all data over many years with every model that has passed certification newer ones are in excell spreadsheet for easy to read info.

https://www3.epa.gov/otaq/certdata.htm#marinesi

Once i am home i can show you actual honda vs etec data that i have from the epa when i wrote them regarding an add honda had in 2008 that was full of false data and they were using to try and have 2stroke regulations tightened due to their own inability to create a quality 2stroke since the late 80s. This data was infact uses as a smokescreen tactic to hide the tremendous amount of faults in their 4stroke marine and atv motors at the time.

[EZM]

Ok so let's get lit up.

I did some reasearch on this myself and learned something very interesting.

Keep in mind we are talking about a small portable outboard (the topic of this thread) and we are talking about emissions and comparing a 2 stroke, an Evinrude using the new G2 clean technology vesus the Honda (or other 4 strokes).

Here's what I found .....

So ironically, Evinrude/BRP doesn't make/market/sell any new 2 stroke portables (the topic of this thread). All of them a 4 strokes.

The G2 technology isn't available, or was never made, for smaller outboards.

Maybe I am stupid - but that makes it impossible for the Evinrude "2 stroke" Unicorn to emit lower emission versus the 4 stroke Honda wouldn't it?..

Poooof ......... grab that fire extinguisher on your way out the door as you drop and roll.

[lsxfirebird]

What do you call a 25hp tiller then? Everyone is posting about getting a 15 or 20hp as they are light and portable well i have a 25hp etec on a zodiac and its plenty portable and easy for 1 person to toss around so whats the difference in 5hp

[lsxfirebird]

Fyi its lighter than the 15hp ho you guys were compairing earlier

[EZM]

Originally Posted by lsxfirebird

Fyi its lighter than the 15hp ho you guys were compairing earlier

You were talking about the clean emissions first and comparing the superior 2 stroke BRP/Evinrude utilizing the new clean technology.

We proved that was a unicorn and doesn't exist as they don't make a portable 2 stroke with this new technology.

I thought that discussion was pretty much finished.

Now you have cleverly diverted and are trying to combine the merits of a light weight (and portable) older Evinrude 2 stroke (which is a dirty smoking engine) with the merits of the new clean technology which is far from portable.

Is that right?

........it's like you are trying to breed a pigeon with a pony ...... to make us believe in the pegasus.

So ....... if you are talking about the 2 stroke ...... let's use facts and data.

The new BRP/Evinrude 15HP HO is the lightest 2 stroke they make.

It happens to weigh 182 lbs ........ far from being portable. It's a primary propulsion engine.

The Honda 20HP is 103lbs. Very light, very portable.

Again, we are talking about portable outboards - not combining the merits of two separate and distinct generations of engines to invent the characteristics/attributes of something doesn't exist.

Kinda like a unicorn or pegasus.

[lsxfirebird]

Where do you get your information from? The 25hp etec is still being manufactured! It is lighter than the 15hp ho by 35lbs and it is clean technology....you can't admit you are wong and continue to write posts that make no sense and have nothing to do with what i am saying. There is no god damn unicorn, for someone who claims to do research you are falling short...as you hinted earlier you have a degree and some form of engineering background which comming from simple blue collar man like myself i suppose that can be forgiven considering engineers dont make mistakes...ill give you this as a time to make a revision...

[EZM]

Originally Posted by lsxfirebird

Where do you get your information from? The 25hp etec is still being manufactured! It is lighter than the 15hp ho by 35lbs and it is clean technology....you can't admit you are wong and continue to write posts that make no sense and have nothing to do with what i am saying. There is no god damn unicorn, for someone who claims to do research you are falling short...as you hinted earlier you have a degree and some form of engineering background which comming from simple blue collar man like myself i suppose that can be forgiven considering engineers dont make mistakes...ill give you this as a time to make a revision...

My information ........ from Evinrude.

http://www.brp.com/en-ca/engines/evi...tboard-engines

Your original post said that the 2 stroke Evinrude was BOTH cleaner and lighter (portable).

There are 2 strokes that are lighter, but not cleaner.

There are 2 strokes that are cleaner but not lighter (and not portable).

Evinrude has never, past or present, provided BOTH of these superior attributes in a 2 stroke engine. Not based on any information I can find or that you have provided.

These are facts.

That's what you said - re-read your own words. Look at the data yourself.

What am I missing? and why am I even still arguing with you if you lack the basic intellectual capacity to understand this?

Good night.

You shoulda just dropped and rolled when the got lit up the first time.

[Tom Pullings]

What's all this hoopla about? Just get an older evinrude 9.9 and be happy.

[CARiDcom]

Suzuki 4 stroke is definitely a good choice. They're very reliable and much more comfortable in everyday usage than 2 stroke motors. + they sound much more pleasant. You got to watch the oil level though and make sure it's getting changed in time.

[lsxfirebird]

You obviously lack the ability to read a website if you cant see that the 25hp direct injection etec IS lighter and cleaner its on evinrudes website if you feel like reading the specs. You can twist the truth all you want to make yourself feel better but it is right there.

[Penner]

Originally Posted by lsxfirebird

1-2strokes do not burn twice the gas, yes the are jetted pig rich from the factory for warrenty purposes to prevent detonation, once tuned they are almost as efficient as a 4 stroke, the newer etecs especially

Wrong. I have a 77 - 15hp and a 75 - 9.9hp Johnson. I run those on a 14ft and 12ft tinner. Brother-in law runs a newer Yamaha 20hp 4-stroke on a zodiac. We have fish both boats over several weekends over the past few years basically following each other with the kids on board and I've easily burn twice as much fuel. Can't use the boat as an argument as the tinner is heavier and has less drag while zipping along than the zodiac and we are carrying the same weight. You'll burn twice as much with a older 4-stroke no question.

The newer e-tec's are supposed to be really great on fuel comparable or better than a equally rated 4-stroke.

[lsxfirebird]

Your talking about compairing a 20hp to a 15 and a 9.9, of course the smaller motor is going to burn more fuel in that situation, it needs to work way harder to keep up. On an equal boat with the same size motor the 2 stroke will be pretty close to the same once tuned and the newer etecs get better mpg than a few of the new 4 strokes. My old 78el70 johnson can pull tubes all day long on a single 25L tank but yet i know guys with the same motor that burn the same fuel just putting around its all on tuning the carbs properly and having everything setup. Aswell for an older 2 stroke having a fresh top end to bump the compression back up to where it should be at.

[58thecat]

I got a Honda 15 and it's portable, 11 years old and still banging away.
Dad had a 9.9 evinrude, plugs fouling etc just a pain so I went to the four stroke and have not regretted it at all.

[EZM]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

I got a Honda 15 and it's portable, 11 years old and still banging away.
Dad had a 9.9 evinrude, plugs fouling etc just a pain so I went to the four stroke and have not regretted it at all.

On a small portable - I agree - a 4 stroke is the better way to go IMO. Light, clean, good on gas, easy to maintain with no fouling when idling.

[Little Valy]

I'm also looking for an 8 or 9.9hp for my zodiac.My questions are,can you transport a 4 stroke on its side or does it always have to be upright,the plate on my boat says max 8hp and max motor weight of 93lbs(can I exceed those numbers by a little bit) and is there a noticeable difference of power in an 8hp to a 9.9hp
Thanks for any and all replies

[EZM]

Originally Posted by Little Valy

I'm also looking for an 8 or 9.9hp for my zodiac.My questions are,can you transport a 4 stroke on its side or does it always have to be upright,the plate on my boat says max 8hp and max motor weight of 93lbs(can I exceed those numbers by a little bit) and is there a noticeable difference of power in an 8hp to a 9.9hp
Thanks for any and all replies

The 8 HP Honda is 93 lbs. The 10 HP (9.9) Honda weighs 103lbs. They are $2700 and $2900 buck respectively.

Couldn't have two better choices in my opinion. Reliable, Easy to Start, Bullet Proof, Quiet, Clean and Smooth Power.

I don't think you will see a HUGE difference in power or weight really. If I were in your shoes I'd spend the extra $200 and get the 9.9.

[Little Valy]

Originally Posted by EZM

The 8 HP Honda is 93 lbs. The 10 HP (9.9) Honda weighs 103lbs. They are $2700 and $2900 buck respectively.

Couldn't have two better choices in my opinion. Reliable, Easy to Start, Bullet Proof, Quiet, Clean and Smooth Power.

I don't think you will see a HUGE difference in power or weight really. If I were in your shoes I'd spend the extra $200 and get the 9.9.

Am I ok to go over the manufacturers specs on weight and hp,not a huge difference,10lbs,1.9hp.Its an 8'10" Zodiac

[Casper1]

I like 4 strokes for their fuel economy, noise level and not need to mix fuel. But in your case I'd recommend a 2 stroke for the weight if you will be taking it on and off regularly, as well they are easier to repair.

[dale7637]

Originally Posted by jim summit

Sorry EZM, but a 15 hp Evinrude is only 75lbs, 25% lighter.

4-stroke idles smooth as a clock, but have to watch when you lay it down, oil can drain past rings and into carb.

This is, imo, the biggest downfall to going 4 stroke. They tend to leak over if laid over, and its a pita.

[EZM]

Originally Posted by dale7637

This is, imo, the biggest downfall to going 4 stroke. They tend to leak over if laid over, and its a pita.

I agree - but some manufacturers (of newer models) have a horizontal orientation (where you can lay them down flat) where that isn't as big of a concern compared to the older models where that could be a bigger issue.

[67ZL1]

If going with a newer 4 stroke, the first thing to do is pull the brass plug for the mixture screw. Warranty or not, it must be done to get these engine to start and idle properly. They are set up way too lean from the factory to obtain emissions. Nothing is more fusturating than a engine that won't idle properly without shaking and stalling.

[bleedscrestliner]

As I read this question I want to help some people out, yourself included. There are three manufacturers that use the same motors, just different tiller handles. Small Portables in the 15hp and down in the Mercury, Evinrude and Tohatsu brands are all manufactured by Tohatsu. So, if you buy a Evinrude or Mercury 15hp and down, it is manufactured by Tohatsu. Tohatsu and Evinrude offer a 5 year warranty, and Mercury offers only a 3 year warranty, why only three years I cannot understand that.

To answer the 15HO questions in the Evinrude line up, this motor is the same size, displacement of the 25 & 30 hp motor. the 15HO is heavier b/c of the electric start and power tilt that is standard on this motor. Where and when you read the spec's of the 25 & 30hp it reads 150lbs, depending on where you read it from. Then your next comment is why does the 15HO weight so much more at 181lbs, again b/c of the electric start and power tilt.

As for weight in the 8hp and 9hp are the same motor again, but the weight starts at 81 lbs for the Tohatsu (short shaft, manual start model). Now Mercury shows 83lbs, Evinrude shows 81.5lbs, but all there are the same motor.

As for weights on the 15 - 25 - 30 hp in the Evinrude line up, you have to make sure your talking about the 15HO and not the 15 4 stroke. The 15HO is much heavier in the e tec line up b/c its the 25/30 powerhead but has the additional weight of the starter/power tilt features. Now Evrindue does purchase there 15hp 4 strokes off Tohatsu and repaint and relabels them and thats where the weight comparision comes in with Mercury 15hp and Tohatsu's 15hp.

Again, all E Tec are set for a semi-synthetic oil setting to run there XD-50 oil settings which mixes fuel/oil at about 100:1, if you decide to ask the dealer to switch the setting to full synthetic and run XD-100 ONLY, then the fuel to oil mixture now changes to about 180:1. Again, using a lot less oil, now your next question is well the full synthetic oil must be $100 a gal. which it is not, it runs about $57-59/gal. The XD-50 semi-synthetic oil only runs about $8-$10 cheaper then the full synthetic. So to me it only makes sense to go synthetic, unless your sometimes in remote areas where your not always able to run synthetic.

Sorry for the long reply, but I hope this helps or I guess I may see many disagreements about this.