Newest information on open spaces.

I have no idea what you were getting at with your last diatribe and truthfully if you are so concerned about focusing on Open Spaces...why don't we quit with he said/she said and the what do you think and what have you done BS and just concentrate on the facts surrounding Open Spaces.....k?

[Vindalbakken]

Is that better? Can you understand it now? Let me know which line you need further explanation on regarding the facts of Open Spaces, my opinion of what those facts mean, and where I think we should be concentrating our efforts on this issue.

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

Is that better? Can you understand it now? Let me know which line you need further explanation on regarding the facts of Open Spaces, my opinion of what those facts mean, and where I think we should be concentrating our efforts on this issue.

I don't need an explaination of anything....just not sure why you were going on about not diverting attention from the facts surrounding Open Spaces yet you keep going on about things that really have nothing to do with Open Spaces. That's what confused me.....so now are we done or are you still concerned about my cards? I'm not concerned about yours as they have no bearing on the facts surrounding Open Spaces and me asking would simply divert attention from the real issue?

Just out of curiousity...when are facts anything other than neutral?

[Vindalbakken]

Check - your cards are gone.

What is it that has nothing to do with Open Spaces? Now I need the explanation.

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

Check - your cards are gone.

What is it that has nothing to do with Open Spaces? Now I need the explanation.

This frivilous name calling, slandering and wild accusations against individuals that are in no way involved with Open Spaces. Didn't I say that a while back?

I ask once again...are facts not by their nature neutral?

[Vindalbakken]

Wow. Is anyone who posts to be included in your web of name callers and slanderers? I don't recall participating in such and it would not be my intent.

I will repeat though that I see this as an issue of critical importance because it speaks to very philosophy of how we view the game animals in our province. From where I sit it is difficult to see the line between impartiality and acceptance in principle.

There is no one who is involved with hunting in any manner in our province who is not "involved" with Open Spaces.

It is germane to the discussion of Open Spaces who may or may not have been privy to the process and thereby is guilty of collusion in the cloak of secrecy.

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

Wow. Is anyone who posts to be included in your web of name callers and slanderers? I don't recall participating in such and it would not be my intent.

I will repeat though that I see this as an issue of critical importance because it speaks to very philosophy of how we view the game animals in our province. From where I sit it is difficult to see the line between impartiality and acceptance in principle.

There is no one who is involved with hunting in any manner in our province who is not "involved" with Open Spaces.

It is germane to the discussion of Open Spaces who may or may not have been privy to the process and thereby is guilty of collusion in the cloak of secrecy.

I most certainly never accused you of anything.....please indicate where I did. I thought we were speaking in broad terms here and I was simply relating some of my experiences as they related to our discussion. I felt those experiences were quite germane to this discussion. It was most definitely not directed at you.

Where have I ever stated that I was impartial. While the facts are impartial it most certainly does not indicate that the purveyor of those facts is. Some prefer to be loud with their opinions and others prefer to deal with things on a more sublime level......I don't see that as seperating one from the other is a measure of superiority though.

As to your comment about all being involved in Open Spaces, once again you misunderstood my words. I was speaking in more specific terms as in those that were involved in its creation or molding.

As for your thoughts of collusion...I plead not guilty.

Now don't you truly believe we've diverted the attention long enough from the real issue with all this pointless bantering?

[Vindalbakken]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

you keep going on about things that really have nothing to do with Open Spaces.

Originally Posted by vindalbakken

What is it that has nothing to do with Open Spaces?

Originally Posted by sheephunter

This frivilous name calling, slandering and wild accusations against individuals that are in no way involved with Open Spaces.

Have a good day.

[Duk Dog]

Are there any more upcoming meetings scheduled? It looks like there was one a week or so ago that some people from the AO board went to.

[MathewsArcher]

Sheep you really should be a spin doctor, I can't recall seeing anything posted that hasn't proved out with the release of the so-called "New Information".

[calgarychef]

heck if a dozen people can't communicate effectively how in the hell are we going to deal with this thing??? the problem is hunters are more interested n spending time hunting than spending time fighting. Hence the effectiveness of the well managed anti's.

get along boys we all need to keep our heads

the chef

I'm pickin up what your bakin Chef.

Good advice me thinks. Lets all work together to stop Paid Hunting.

Originally Posted by MathewsArcher

Sheep you really should be a spin doctor, I can't recall seeing anything posted that hasn't proved out with the release of the so-called "New Information".

Mathews, my point was that there was all kinds of wild speculation in the beginning by many board members and much of that speculation was wrong. Now, most of those people are operating with the facts which is a good thing. It makes them sound less like chicken little and more like an informed sportsmen......who do you think the government will listen to?

I'm not saying the facts have changed at all...it's just many people weren't aware of them in the beginning but now are....it's pretty simple to me.....I don't see any spin doctoring there.

If your ego got a bit bruised in the beginning because you were shouting about things you knew nothing about and you got vcorrected, get over it. Now you have the facts and are offering an informed opinion...that is something to be listened to and admired.

Why are some people so afraid of the facts...sheesh and why does clarifying misinformation with the facts suddenly put you on the opposite side of the debate? I've been around this block more times than I care to admit and a group of sportsmen armed with the facts is a very powerful lobby indeed. A bunch of sportsmen going off half cocked won't get the time of day.

There's some of you so desperate to put me on the other side of this debate that it's clouding your judgement and constantly deflecting attention from the real issues but for whatever reason, you are just so concerned about what old sheep thinks that you can't focus. Well why not leave old sheep alone and start focusing...this is getting pathetic.

Maybe read what calgarychef wrote above...some sage advice I'd say!

[Bull Shooter]

CalgaryChef – I think many of us made up our minds very early that this was paid hunting (regardless of the spin) and that it would greatly reduce the number of hunters and hunting opportunities that Albertans have equally enjoyed. This was never about habitat and conservation (my mistake) and in fact SRD confirmed it was all about access and compensation. In at least one Open Spaces document, the word “trophy hunting” is used to portray the program (or its benefits).

I have been reluctant to make this observation public, but I just can’t keep it to myself anymore; Open Spaces Alberta is ANTI-HUNTING! If you want to initiate a program of “divide and conquer” that will effectively increase costs, reduce the number of hunters and clear a path for the anti-hunting movement, then Open Spaces is the perfect vehicle. This was brought to my attention by an anti-hunter, so it is hardly my “interpretation”.

I fear the miscommunication on this topic and board is a result of short-sighted individuals that only look at the immediate benefits or personal gain for themselves with little regard for their fellow or future hunters. The original warnings were absolutely correct, and in fact most of the speculation (in the absence of information) was not only correct but proved to be very useful on a go-forward basis.

I have had the pleasure of personally meeting several individuals that are vehemently opposed to Open Spaces and we continue to work to abolish this piece of trash. We all communicate effectively and respectfully and I have never witnessed any animosity. I think the problems you see on this board are the result of agendas between individuals; those who benefit from Open Spaces, those who may see benefits in Open Spaces and those who are absolutely opposed to Open Spaces.

I think the line has been drawn; it’s up to us now to determine what is important for the present and the future and decide which side we are on. Regards, Mike

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

Have a good day.

Once again Vin I have no idea what you are getting at but that seems to be an all too reoccuring theme.

[outlaw'd]

Good post Bull Shooter! Thats it in a nutshell. There are those who will gain from this program if it isn't stopped, and its not just a few landowners. There are those who will not oppose it for the simple reason its big business. Big business = big money = american money, whether its through american investment $$$/sponserships or whatever the case may be. I don't care what anyone says, there will be a push from our southern neighbors, because in the end, its them who will benifit from this, not the little guy. Just my 2 cents.

[MathewsArcher]

.

[Pathfinder76]

TJ, with the facts as you see them. Are you comfortable with this PILOT project taking place in WMU's 108 and 300?

[Vindalbakken]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Once again Vin I have no idea what you are getting at but that seems to be an all too reoccuring theme.

How about this.

Have a nice day TJ.

Originally Posted by chuck

TJ, with the facts as you see them. Are you comfortable with this PILOT project taking place in WMU's 108 and 300?

Please read back chuck....due to the malicious actions of some on this board I've decided that my best course of action is not to express a public opinion, hence I've just brought a few facts forward when I get them and that's where it ends.

And truthfully, why does it matter what my opinion is any how? There are 2,000 other people on this board that haven't expressed an opinion either...why aren't you askking them as well?

[The Elkster]

It might also be said that there are a few resident hunters that do a fair % of guided hunts, willing for whatever reason to pay the big $'s for a hunt/tag, who will likely gain more than they lose from some of the proposed changes. Some may not like it but I think it is very important to look at every stakeholders background and motivation when considering what they are saying, what they are supporting and what/who they are poo pooing.

If this does go through I can see the guides getting burned though which would be funny (small consolation I know) if they are in fact supporting this initiative. What now costs them little in the way of compensation for access (no of course they don't pay anything for exclusive access what was I thinking may now cost them a much high going rate or the landowners may shut them out altogether in favor of starting a guiding outfit themselves. A landowner would be crazy to sell a tag cheap when he can sell a premium $ tag, meals, accomodation, guiding, etc and generate thousands of additional income off of each tag. I'm sure more than one land owner would decide to give up on the farming and go lock stock and barrel into the hunting biz. I think we need only look to the US to see where this is going.

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

How about this.

Have a nice day TJ.

And you have a nice day as well.

[LongDraw]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Mathews, my point was that there was all kinds of wild speculation in the beginning by many board members and much of that speculation was wrong. Now, most of those people are operating with the facts which is a good thing. It makes them sound less like chicken little and more like an informed sportsmen......who do you think the government will listen to?

I'm not saying the facts have changed at all...it's just many people weren't aware of them in the beginning but now are....it's pretty simple to me.....I don't see any spin doctoring there.

If your ego got a bit bruised in the beginning because you were shouting about things you knew nothing about and you got vcorrected, get over it. Now you have the facts and are offering an informed opinion...that is something to be listened to and admired.

Why are some people so afraid of the facts...sheesh and why does clarifying misinformation with the facts suddenly put you on the opposite side of the debate? I've been around this block more times than I care to admit and a group of sportsmen armed with the facts is a very powerful lobby indeed. A bunch of sportsmen going off half cocked won't get the time of day.

There's some of you so desperate to put me on the other side of this debate that it's clouding your judgement and constantly deflecting attention from the real issues but for whatever reason, you are just so concerned about what old sheep thinks that you can't focus. Well why not leave old sheep alone and start focusing...this is getting pathetic.

Maybe read what calgarychef wrote above...some sage advice I'd say!

I agree there is nothing worse than someone going off half cocked without first having the facts. The BIG difference is this is a discussion board, not a formal conduit such as a letter, email, association position paper, etc, to SRD and the Government. This is what discussion boards are for! As well, nothing has changed as far as the info we have recieved! It is human nature to speculate on the "what If's", and perfectly justifyable on a discussion board. You have stated numerous times that you do not want to get pulled into this debate, and people are trying to put you on the other side of the debate? HUH.... You are part of the discussion, hence your posts. I am sure you have given a few a sober second thought before they go off "half cocked" with their input, thanks for that. For the most part we have been discussing what we now know as the facts of the Pilot project, which have been all along.

At this point there is no value in calling out bruised ego's, chicken littles, etc...

I am sure we are on the same side of this issue for the most part, so lets keep this thing on the tracks, ok?

Originally Posted by LongDraw

I agree there is nothing worse than someone going off half cocked without first having the facts. The BIG difference is this is a discussion board, not a formal conduit such as a letter, email, association position paper, etc, to SRD and the Government. This is what discussion boards are for! It is human nature to speculate on the "what If's", and perfectly justifyable on a discussion board. You have stated numerous times that you do not want to get pulled into this debate, and people are trying to put you on the other side of the debate? HUH.... You are part of the discussion, hence your posts. I am sure you have given a few a sober second thought before they go off "half cocked" with your input, thanks for that. For the most part we have been discussing what we now know as the facts of the Pilot project, which have been all along.

At this point there is no value in calling out bruised ego's, chicken littles, etc...

I am sure we are on the same side of this issue for the most part, so lets keep this thing on the tracks, ok?

As I've said more times than I care to count, I'd be pleased just to share the occasional fact and engage in a civil discussion and leave it at that but it seems I keep getting called out...speaking of keeping things on track....was your post really required? Maybe now we can get back on track?

[LongDraw]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

As I've said more times than I care to count, I'd be pleased just to share the occasional fact and engage in a cibil discussion and leave it at that but it seems I keep getting called out...speaking of keeping things on track....was your post really required? Maybe now we can get back on track?

As required as yours I guess?

Originally Posted by LongDraw

As required as yours I guess?

Not really, you quoted me and made comments about me....I was forced to answer. The post you quoted was to Matthews, not you. Had you not made the original post none of this bandwidth would have been wasted now would it?

[LongDraw]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

As I've said more times than I care to count, I'd be pleased just to share the occasional fact and engage in a civil discussion and leave it at that but it seems I keep getting called out...speaking of keeping things on track....was your post really required? Maybe now we can get back on track?

Curious why you just choose to share the occasional fact, and not all of the facts?

[LongDraw]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Not really, you quoted me and made comments about me....I was forced to answer. The post you quoted was to Matthews, not you. Had you not made the original post none of this bandwidth would have been wasted now would it?

Yes I did quote and make comments on you, as I have been involved in the discussion as you have. I guess that is why there is a quote button under every posting?

Originally Posted by LongDraw

Curious why you just choose to share the occasional fact, and not all of the facts?

I shared facts, as I received them, that were not already posted here. I occasionally received facts that weren't posted here so they were occasional facts. Reposting facts that others had already posted would seem redundant to me and a waste of space. And what does this post have to do with getting back on track?????

Originally Posted by LongDraw

Yes I did quote and make comments on you, as I have been involved in the discussion as you have. I guess that is why there is a quote button under every posting?

Sleep on it...you'll realize how assinine this exchange is becoming. Now can we get back on track?