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  #151  
Old 02-05-2010, 10:44 AM
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Three interesting conclusions made from the studies I posted earlier.

First link- Trophy hunting has not reduced horn size in rams
Third link- Horn size mostly determined by environmental factors vs. genetics
Fourth link- Even in the prescence of mature rams (8+ years old), 50% of lambs were sired by sub-dominant rams (under 8 years old)

More reading...
http://www.skinnymoose.com/naturecont.pdf

and a suggestion... cut and paste reference material into google, may lead to the actual papers.
  #152  
Old 02-05-2010, 11:02 AM
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SG, I dont know if you actually read the first link from walking buffalo, but the base comparisons were made between 4 WMU's south of the bow, and 4 WMU's north. This is an actual study with real data, and is probably a very good indicator of reality - not just opinion.

Mike
Yes i read it. And from what I read it states 4 from each but only really talks about 3 from the north. 2 mine site herds and the ram mountain herd. This is a very very small portion of the area north of the Bow. To make an assumption that this is the average for the whole area would be false!
Your leaving out alot of areas that have and still produce many rams that at 5 1/2 years old have over 15 4/8 inch bases. Between my Dad and I we have 3 rams and the average base size is 15 7/8". Places like the whiterabbit have some heavy based sheep also. These studies that many guys figure are so accurate arent due to the fact that if your gunna come up with actual averages for the north and south you need to have measurments from all zones in these areas!!

SG
  #153  
Old 02-05-2010, 11:20 AM
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Three interesting conclusions made from the studies I posted earlier.

First link- Trophy hunting has not reduced horn size in rams
Third link- Horn size mostly determined by environmental factors vs. genetics
Fourth link- Even in the prescence of mature rams (8+ years old), 50% of lambs were sired by sub-dominant rams (under 8 years old)
AS to your comments;

First link - no one here said it did.

Second link - anyone that knows anything about horn or antler growth knows that both genetics, and nutrition determine size!

Third link - You obviously have never been to ram mountain as these breeding numbers are probably true there but there were at the time of the study maybe 1 ram if they were lucky that would have been 8. There was probably a total of less than 5 rams old enough to even breed on that mountain.
Like I say comparing this very small herd to the rest of Alberta isnt doing any justice to our herds.
  #154  
Old 02-05-2010, 11:38 AM
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I agree with you sg. As you stated, this probably isn't new info. for many here, then again it may be for others. I am just sharing with those who desire to learn more about sheep in Alberta. Many of the scientific papers are hard to find, and this may help.

Take it easy on me, my initials are WB not TJ
  #155  
Old 02-05-2010, 01:00 PM
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Yes i read it. And from what I read it states 4 from each but only really talks about 3 from the north. 2 mine site herds and the ram mountain herd. This is a very very small portion of the area north of the Bow. To make an assumption that this is the average for the whole area would be false!
Your leaving out alot of areas that have and still produce many rams that at 5 1/2 years old have over 15 4/8 inch bases. Between my Dad and I we have 3 rams and the average base size is 15 7/8". Places like the whiterabbit have some heavy based sheep also. These studies that many guys figure are so accurate arent due to the fact that if your gunna come up with actual averages for the north and south you need to have measurments from all zones in these areas!!

SG
Youre absolutely right, chances are that including the two mine-site WMU's would skew the north data to reflect larger than normal bases. I guess the North must average even smaller bases than portrayed by this study.
Interesting point SG, I didnt think of it until you pointed it out.

Again - the rest of your post here is just your own anecdotal evidence, unless you've done a study we are unaware of...

I will agree that to get true averages you would have to look at all WMU's, but the conclusions drawn are that WMU's with chinook belt climates produce the largest bases - and those climates are predominantly south of the Bow. Unless you disagree that ease of access to winter forage doesnt play a significant factor in horn growth.
  #156  
Old 02-05-2010, 03:35 PM
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that is VERY well said 7MM
  #157  
Old 02-05-2010, 04:11 PM
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Youre absolutely right, chances are that including the two mine-site WMU's would skew the north data to reflect larger than normal bases. I guess the North must average even smaller bases than portrayed by this study.
Interesting point SG, I didnt think of it until you pointed it out.

Again - the rest of your post here is just your own anecdotal evidence, unless you've done a study we are unaware of...

I will agree that to get true averages you would have to look at all WMU's, but the conclusions drawn are that WMU's with chinook belt climates produce the largest bases - and those climates are predominantly south of the Bow. Unless you disagree that ease of access to winter forage doesnt play a significant factor in horn growth.
The mine WMU's havent been prodicing above average base sizes that ive seen.
Look at the square mile of study lands. Neither mines encompas much land and ram mountain is only an 1/8 of zone 429. So how can this represent anything. There is alot of land from the Bow to north of grand cache. I just dont see how it can represent places such as the Ghost, Burnt Timber, Panther, Red Deer, Forbiden Creek, Clearwater, Ranger Creek, South Ram, Whiterabbit, Cline, Corral Creek, Whiskey creek,Wapiapi, Blackstone, Chungo, Wilmore and so on. So you guys can go by some study that really means very little and beleive what you wish.
SG
  #158  
Old 02-05-2010, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by walking buffalo View Post
I agree with you sg. As you stated, this probably isn't new info. for many here, then again it may be for others. I am just sharing with those who desire to learn more about sheep in Alberta. Many of the scientific papers are hard to find, and this may help.

Take it easy on me, my initials are WB not TJ
Sorry WB wasnt trying to be rude but most people see these studies on ram mountain and think its the norm. This mountain is its own little nich that has been almost wiped out the last 10 years.
SG
  #159  
Old 02-05-2010, 04:20 PM
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i cant believe that noone has posted a link for the article in the alberta game warden from about 2 years ago. i believ it was a representation of all sheep from all zones over 50 years. pretty much showed it as clear as it can get. sg you can go on all you want about how every zone has had a gagger or 2. well....virginia has a whitetail in B&C, but few would argue it is a great destination for trophy whitetails. it is also an exception to the rule. i think the point here is to look at the big picture and take an average for the enitire province...then look at it from a regional standpoint. southern sheep are on average bigger. it is well documented. noone said a big sheep cant grow in the northern part of the province....just that they typically average bigger in the south. cmon man, i know you can grasp that simple point.
  #160  
Old 02-05-2010, 11:43 PM
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Originally Posted by ishootbambi View Post
i i think the point here is to look at the big picture and take an average for the enitire province...then look at it from a regional standpoint. southern sheep are on average bigger. it is well documented. noone said a big sheep cant grow in the northern part of the province....just that they typically average bigger in the south. .
Very true Dale..it's all about averages and not exceptions to the rule. It seems to be pretty common knowledge amoung sheep hunters.
  #161  
Old 02-06-2010, 06:33 AM
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Very true Dale..it's all about averages and not exceptions to the rule. It seems to be pretty common knowledge amoung sheep hunters.
For sure any of the serious sheep hunters I know it is common knowldge.
  #162  
Old 02-06-2010, 08:53 AM
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For sure any of the serious sheep hunters I know it is common knowldge.
Ya serious sheep hunters like yourself there 209. Just cause Tj preaches it and a few guys beleive it doesnt mean its 100% correct. Im done arguing about it as the only guys that think this way are the guys that only hunt in the south or are under the hypnotism of TJ. The only documentation that shows any of this is the B/C and I would put money on it that if every ram killed in alberta that scored over 180 was know the ones in the book would be less than half of them. I know of way more rams that are not recorded in the book than out. And that number will exeed any amount(large or small) that you have ever seen on the ground in your life time 209. Like I said you "Documentation" guys can beleive what you wish. And you self proclaimed "serious" sheep hunters can say what you wish. There are some great sheep hunters in this province that live and breath sheep hunting and them are the guys I listen to when it comes to sheep and sheep hunting.
Not some braggard "BOOK" or some half assed study. So you southern guys have fun hunting the biggest sheep in the world down there and ill send every wanna be I meet that way because thats the place to get that ram of a lifetime!
  #163  
Old 02-06-2010, 11:21 AM
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Ya serious sheep hunters like yourself there 209. Just cause Tj preaches it and a few guys beleive it doesnt mean its 100% correct. Im done arguing about it as the only guys that think this way are the guys that only hunt in the south or are under the hypnotism of TJ. The only documentation that shows any of this is the B/C and I would put money on it that if every ram killed in alberta that scored over 180 was know the ones in the book would be less than half of them. I know of way more rams that are not recorded in the book than out. And that number will exeed any amount(large or small) that you have ever seen on the ground in your life time 209. Like I said you "Documentation" guys can beleive what you wish. And you self proclaimed "serious" sheep hunters can say what you wish. There are some great sheep hunters in this province that live and breath sheep hunting and them are the guys I listen to when it comes to sheep and sheep hunting.
Not some braggard "BOOK" or some half assed study. So you southern guys have fun hunting the biggest sheep in the world down there and ill send every wanna be I meet that way because thats the place to get that ram of a lifetime!

I thought you never stop arguing, now if we could just get you to stay off your dam computer SG you are the god of all Sheep hunters.
  #164  
Old 02-06-2010, 12:30 PM
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I thought you never stop arguing, now if we could just get you to stay off your dam computer SG you are the god of all Sheep hunters.
LOL just because I know it bugs guys like you I will keep on voicing my opinion. You can say what you wish about what I know and that is fine. I know what I know. If I know nothing than I guess you guys look pretty smart if I happen to know what im talking about it makes alot of guys look pretty dumb. There are alot of guys that talk the big talk on here and then sit at home and hope nobody reads through the BS. I guarentee im not one of these guys. So ramcrazy hold on for the ride as im not going anywhere
  #165  
Old 02-06-2010, 06:24 PM
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Was thinking that maybe I was wrong on this and it was bugging me today!
So I knew that my Step Dad had an older B/C book. It is twenty years old (8th edition)so a quite a bit has changed but it will back what I say. Up to 1988 there were 113 entries from north of HWY 1 and 62 from south(I googled every creek mountain or area that I didnt know). There are 15 listed as just alberta. And I may have missed one or two but think I counted pretty acurate.
I know these numbers will increase now but I dont beleive the south has out numbered the north by over double in the last 20 years.

In the top 15 in this book there are 10 from alberta and of these 3 are over 16" on the base and 1 is only 16 on one horn.

There are 5 rams in this book from alberta with 17"+ bases. 2 from the north(1-Brazeu and 1- Rocky Mtn House) and 3 from the south( Yarrow creek- 1, Highwood - 1 and Castle river - 1)

Just thought it would shed a little light on what area produces the biggest rams through out history.

So if your rams do carry an average heavier base in the south then they must not hold it or get enough length to finish off.

SG
  #166  
Old 02-06-2010, 09:02 PM
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Sheepguide,thats what I thought,great info.I have read quite a bit of Jack O'Connor and he hunt great rams in the Willmore ,among other ares of Alberta,but from what I have read mostly north of #1.There are great sheep throughout Alberta for those who are willing to put in the effort to look for them,and pass on the younger ones.
  #167  
Old 02-06-2010, 09:23 PM
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Just wanted to back myself a little. Tired of hearing how all serious sheep hunters know the south produces bigger rams. Any part of alberta is a great place to hunt sheep and the opertunity for a big ram can be had in any of our zones. But it is, as some would say "Documented" that up to 1988(the sheep hay days) northern Alberta dominated in the large ram catagory.

Also prooves that large bases are not needed as over 50% of the rams have less than 15 4/8" bases.

Seems that a few may not be as serious as they claim to be.

Hope to get a look at the new book one day just to see how they are today but I beleve the numbers will even favor the north more with the late season draws bringing out many B/C rams.

Looked through my great rams book today also and lots of good rams in there from north of HWY 1
SG

Last edited by sheepguide; 02-06-2010 at 09:28 PM.
  #168  
Old 02-06-2010, 10:40 PM
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Sheepguide,thats what I thought,great info.I have read quite a bit of Jack O'Connor and he hunt great rams in the Willmore ,among other ares of Alberta,but from what I have read mostly north of #1.There are great sheep throughout Alberta for those who are willing to put in the effort to look for them,and pass on the younger ones.
I was certainly never talking B&C score...just body size and horn configuration. I'm not sure how this thread got diverted to trophy quality...it was certainly never my intent but southern rams are bigger bodied and typically don't have the number of tighter curls versus the northern rams. They do have more open curls but that certainly doesn't mean they score better. That is what's well documented and commonly accepted amoung sheep hunters that I know that have hunted throughout the province. It's definitely been my observation too.

Last edited by sheephunter; 02-06-2010 at 11:04 PM.
  #169  
Old 02-07-2010, 07:47 AM
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I was certainly never talking B&C score...just body size and horn configuration. I'm not sure how this thread got diverted to trophy quality...it was certainly never my intent but southern rams are bigger bodied and typically don't have the number of tighter curls versus the northern rams. They do have more open curls but that certainly doesn't mean they score better. That is what's well documented and commonly accepted amoung sheep hunters that I know that have hunted throughout the province. It's definitely been my observation too.
That was how I had always read your posts - that there are different tendancies in different areas of the province.
  #170  
Old 02-07-2010, 08:06 AM
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I was certainly never talking B&C score...just body size and horn configuration. I'm not sure how this thread got diverted to trophy quality...it was certainly never my intent but southern rams are bigger bodied and typically don't have the number of tighter curls versus the northern rams. They do have more open curls but that certainly doesn't mean they score better. That is what's well documented and commonly accepted amoung sheep hunters that I know that have hunted throughout the province. It's definitely been my observation too.
Ill give you one thing TJ the south may have a couple more 16" based sheep but the record book sure shows how they dont hold their weight. There are, in the old book I have as many 15 1/2- 16" rams from the south as there are 16"+.
It just goes with what I said, base means very little if the ram doesnt hold its weight into the second measurment.
I guess the rams put to much into body weight in the south and not into horn mass.

Pre 1988 best areas for book sheep

Clearwater - 14
Panther - 10
Highwood - 10
Burnttimber - 11
Cadomin - 16 pre late season draws
Castle River - 8
Ghost - 8
  #171  
Old 02-07-2010, 08:09 AM
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i cant believe that noone has posted a link for the article in the alberta game warden from about 2 years ago. i believ it was a representation of all sheep from all zones over 50 years. pretty much showed it as clear as it can get. sg you can go on all you want about how every zone has had a gagger or 2. well....virginia has a whitetail in B&C, but few would argue it is a great destination for trophy whitetails. it is also an exception to the rule. i think the point here is to look at the big picture and take an average for the enitire province...then look at it from a regional standpoint. southern sheep are on average bigger. it is well documented. noone said a big sheep cant grow in the northern part of the province....just that they typically average bigger in the south. cmon man, i know you can grasp that simple point.
Here you go TJ, right here it is stated that southern sheep are on average bigger. And in post #160 i beleive it was you agreed with him!
Dont put me down for what I know! Ill give you a few more 16" rams MAYBE but the south is far from having larger rams.
Maybe you guys are unable to grasp a simple concept.
SG
  #172  
Old 02-08-2010, 03:10 PM
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It's unfortunate that this thread got so side tracked but to try and get it back on track, the fact remains that southern rams have more open curls (nothing to do with length or bases or B&C score) than their northern cousins on average and putting rams on a full curl designation would reduce the harvest in the south by 90% or more in the first few years and I doubt it would ever come back to more than 75% or so of what it is now. Even if it came back to 50%, is that really how we want game managers to manage our hunting opportunities in WMUs where there are no concerns with population numbers?

Last edited by sheephunter; 02-08-2010 at 03:18 PM.
  #173  
Old 02-08-2010, 04:27 PM
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Will have to agree with you on the full curl deal TJ. Most areas have few rams that will make this unless they reach 12 - 14 years old. My Step Dads ram is 180+ 38" X 15 7/8 (loose curl)that wouldnt be legal by full curl standards. Its only legal by a couple inches going with 4/5 curl.
SG
  #174  
Old 02-08-2010, 06:20 PM
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SG,
does this mean you are not against leaving the 4/5 rule the way it is???? without change???
  #175  
Old 02-08-2010, 07:43 PM
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SG,
does this mean you are not against leaving the 4/5 rule the way it is???? without change???
I havent wanted a change in length. Ive been saying that a more mature bunch of rams being harvested would be nice. Length of horn has nothing to do with maturity. Full curl will increase the age of rams but as stated will drasticly reduse the number of legal rams out there. Some rams broom back never to reach full curl. Ive seen rams broomed back shorter than 4/5 but are still big old rams that should be harvested. Just not a fan of guys shooting 2 or 3 rams all under 7(and yes it happens ). Sheep arent like whitetails they are a Trophy that should be hunted as such and not just shot because we can and we have a tag.
JMHO
SG
  #176  
Old 02-08-2010, 08:07 PM
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Sheepguide,I totally agree with you.Sheep are not like deer and other game they are special and those that hunt them should treat them as special.As you have said a full curl rule would increase age structure but would also decrease harvest numbers drasticly.We need better education for sheep hunters in order to promote the harvest of mature rams.
  #177  
Old 02-08-2010, 09:17 PM
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Sheepguide,I totally agree with you.Sheep are not like deer and other game they are special and those that hunt them should treat them as special.As you have said a full curl rule would increase age structure but would also decrease harvest numbers drasticly.We need better education for sheep hunters in order to promote the harvest of mature rams.
Not saying I disagree with you Hagar but it that case, what would make a big/old one more special than a lower scoring/young one? I hear a lot on this site about it being all about the hunt and trophy size doesn't make it a trophy so why is that different with sheep? A hunt for a young ram can be equally as challenging as that for an old one. As a person that's killed several rams, personally I'd love to see more restrictive regulations that put more old rams on the mountain but score is important to me. But, I don't think that would be fair to new or unsucessful hunters or good for hunters in general. Just curious on your thoughts why we need more old rams if as it seems, populations are healthy. Not saying you're one of them but it seems a few people are trying to work both sides of the trophy arguement...size/age doesn't make it special/trophy....size/age does make it special/trophy. I can't see how the species changes that.
  #178  
Old 02-08-2010, 09:47 PM
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Not saying I disagree with you Hagar but it that case, what would make a big/old one more special than a lower scoring/young one? I hear a lot on this site about it being all about the hunt and trophy size doesn't make it a trophy so why is that different with sheep? A hunt for a young ram can be equally as challenging as that for an old one. As a person that's killed several rams, personally I'd love to see more restrictive regulations that put more old rams on the mountain but score is important to me. But, I don't think that would be fair to new or unsucessful hunters or good for hunters in general. Just curious on your thoughts why we need more old rams if as it seems, populations are healthy. Not saying you're one of them but it seems a few people are trying to work both sides of the trophy arguement...size/age doesn't make it special/trophy....size/age does make it special/trophy. I can't see how the species changes that.
The thing is, we havent said that there is a population issue. We have only stated that some more older more mature rams running around cant hurt. With this you will get bigger trophies if thats what floats your boat. Some guys could care less what the score sheet states. But if we pass on these younger rams it cant do anything but help age quality and for you trophy quality.
All sheep are special no matter the size and any just legal ram is for sure a trophy but will be more so in a couple more years. If the majority of rams are shot when just 5 1/2 or 6 1/2 then we will gain nothing other than keeping everything as it is now. If we could hit the predators and just shoot rams that are few years older then we would have some phenominal hunting here.

No one is saying that there is big problems with things now but it could be alot better with very little effort and sacrifice.

JMHO
SG
  #179  
Old 02-08-2010, 10:07 PM
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I feel as a hunter that it is better to harvest mature animals rather than young animals.Score means nothing to me.But if the young are hunted then whats left to mature?Sure there is still the thrill of the hunt whether it is young or old.But giving the difference in the populations of the different game animals the sheep is one of the smaller populations as compared to whitetails or elk.And if you don't think sheep are special then look at the rates for non-resident hunts for sheep.

As far as population goes,if you take the 1990 sheep report and the population goals for 2000 in that report and take it another 10 years you will see we are behind on the growth projections.How ever we are also way below the harvest goals of that report as well.

We are also one of the only places that I know of that has a general season for bighorn sheep.If we don't look towards the future we will lose this special hunt.As hunters we must look to the future of any game animal to preserve the hunt for the future.Not only our's but of all future hunters.
  #180  
Old 02-09-2010, 09:54 AM
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I feel as a hunter that it is better to harvest mature animals rather than young animals.Score means nothing to me.But if the young are hunted then whats left to mature?Sure there is still the thrill of the hunt whether it is young or old.But giving the difference in the populations of the different game animals the sheep is one of the smaller populations as compared to whitetails or elk.And if you don't think sheep are special then look at the rates for non-resident hunts for sheep.

As far as population goes,if you take the 1990 sheep report and the population goals for 2000 in that report and take it another 10 years you will see we are behind on the growth projections.How ever we are also way below the harvest goals of that report as well.

We are also one of the only places that I know of that has a general season for bighorn sheep.If we don't look towards the future we will lose this special hunt.As hunters we must look to the future of any game animal to preserve the hunt for the future.Not only our's but of all future hunters.

You make some good points Hagar but I don't know how we can ever increase the age of the rams harvested without a significant reduction in opportunity. Aging bighorns on the hoof like they do with thinhorns just isn't practical and while a education program is, without regulations to back it up, I can't see guys not shooting legal 4/5 rams regardless of age. A limited-entry draw or full curl regulations would undoubtedly acheive those results but do we really want to limit opportunity that much when there really isn't a problem with the population numbers?

I totally agree that bighorns are special but are they any less special at 6.5 years old than they are at 9.5 years old? It takes the same amount of effort to get them. Non-resident prices are so high because of the limited opportunities to hunt bighorns in North America, not because of their age or B&C score. It all comes down to supply and demand.

I just can't help but think we are trying way too hard to fix a problem that doesn't exist. As I said for me personally, I'd love to see more restrictive regulations that put more older/higher scoring sheep on the mountains but I don't think that's best for all hunters. I say open some new opportunities with more restrictive regulations and leave what we have as is unless there is a concern over population numbers.
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