Paid Hunting in Alberta?

[LongDraw]

Originally Posted by shedcrazy

I am heard the same thing that Lurch is talking about in reagrds to landowners getting the tags and putting them out to bid. This will not benefit the average hunter at all. The only thing I know about location is that they want to try it as a trial down south first.

Just look at the mess Utah has created for residents because of transferable landowner tags.

[Rust]

What the Hell, Does Morton own any land in these proposed test areas???????
Why would they (the gov) think this is a good idea unless their pockets are getting lined!?!?!? Can't believe this. I am ****ed at thought of this. If a landowner will not let anyone on his land now, not even one or two guys. But now they want to give him some tags to sell! And you thought the landowner was an a@#hole before. Now he is going to think that he can tell you when to come and go, what you can shoot, how big! Sheeeeeesh.


But I am going to shut up now. I really hope this does not go through.

[Mintaka]

.

[Bull Shooter]

Dear Dr. Morton,

While perusing the Alberta Outdoorsmen Forum (an internet forum largely dedicate to outdoor pursuits in Alberta), I came across a particularly disturbing thread. This thread suggested there was a plan, researched and perhaps endorsed by the Alberta Government, which considered compensation to landowners for hunting opportunities.

If this is true, could you please provide the following information?

• Who were the specific individuals/stakeholders that were consulted
• What organizations were represented during consultations
• What are the details of the plan
• How is this deemed to be a benefit to Albertans and the Alberta Outdoors Community

Thanking you in advance for your cooperation.

.

[outlaw'd]

It would be kind of interesting to go into the future, and see what is at the end of Mr. Mortons vision in regards to the management of this resource. He kyeboshed the IMHA( possible 35000 hunters, but not likely ), and then gave free reign to hunt year round to the needy of this province ( possible hundreds of thousands, but not likely ), he seems working his way towards paid access hunting, and he is consulting with a some organizations that may or may not benifit in the long run with these radical changes he is imposing..................makes me wonder what may have happened if he was Premiere. Just my 2 cents.

[Rust]

So how will paid access help the NEEDY??? OR do they get a Free pass????

I think what Morton and Stelmach did recently in regards to the Metis was an absolute stroke of genius....I couldn't be more pleased with the way they dealt with what could have quite possibly been a no win situation for Alberta hunters and wildlife. I'm sending them both letters saying how fairly and intelligently they handled it. And that's all I'm saying on that matter.

Rather than speculating, I'm going to wait for the facts on this access issue....but feel free to speculate and rant away!

[Duk Dog]

Originally Posted by ehntr

Rather than rumour milling............these are the "hunter friendly" organizations that represent us and are represented at these meetings. Contact them for facts, whatever they may be:

ACA
AFGA
APOS
Hunting for Tomorrow Foundation.

Curious has anyone tried to contact any of these groups? If so what sort of feedback did you receive? Along the lines of what Sheep mentioned until there is feedback from one of these groups it is all speculation. (and a potentially scary prospect if it is true)

.

[CNP]

The form lettter supplied by Bull Shooter...excellent.

I sent it to the AFGA after rewording it so that it was applicable to them.

I'm definitely waiting this one out. I've heard some guys repeat what they thought they understood at Fish and Game Meetings leading to huge debates about nothing. When i think back this happened regarding designating some lakes as trophy fisheries, walleye tags, CWD hunts, etc.

The recommendations is the paper sound good, and i can't say for sure but i thought Morton was a fairly strong opponent of paid access. (was anyone else at Willow Valley when he spoke? wasn't that issue in WMU 300 specifically mentioned, maybe I'm on goofballs but it seems to ring a bell).

Nothing wrong with sending letters though, there's other government bodies that could use some letters to support outdoor activities in Alberta as well, strength in numbers (hopefully I'll have a bit of a rant ready in the new year on a slightly unrelated subject, gotta do my research first and potentially contact the AFGA).

[Jamie]

No kidding.. Why do people just get all uptight over something that no one really knows about...

All I can think of is Chicken little running around saying the SKY IS FALLING..


Easy now boys, lets see what this is all about before we go calling for heads to roll. What I had heard was good things.

Jamie

[gunslinger]

PHP Code:

We already lose enough tags to outfitters, now we may lose more to landowners. BRUTAL 


tell me where you lost tags to outiftters 340

[Rust]

You got to be kidding me here?!?!?! Can't say that I know about ACA or AFGA, But APOS I have not heard positive things about these guys. From what I have heard they are a bunch of snakes, most of em anyways.

But I am going to shut up now. I really hope this does not go through.[/QUOTE]

Ok I just went to the APOS web site and looked at all the PPL on the Board/staff/directors etc. There is a bunch. So I apollagise for reffering to them as a bunch of snakes. YOu guys are right about waiting it out before getting all excited. But think I might to a little digging myself. Should though of that erlier eh?
Rust

[Bull Shooter]

Originally Posted by Jamie

No kidding.. Why do people just get all uptight over something that no one really knows about...

All I can think of is Chicken little running around saying the SKY IS FALLING..


Easy now boys, lets see what this is all about before we go calling for heads to roll. What I had heard was good things.

Jamie

I agree, and that's why I have penned my letter to Dr. Morton.

Does anyone on the board have a subscription to "The Hunting Report"?

I came across this article (incomplete) and am interested in the context of the comments and in particular the meaning of the word "quirk":

http://www.huntingreport.com/hunting...ils.cfm?id=766

Any enlightenment would be most appreciated and please remember, it is an incomplete article. Regards, Mike

[bruceba]

No kidding.. Why do people just get all uptight over something that no one really knows about...
All I can think of is Chicken little running around saying the SKY IS FALLING..

Thats good Jamie, I've said almost the same thing in the past. Oh great minds

I to am e-mailing both Stelmach and Morton but don't expect a solid answer until after the election in the new year.

.

You realize that article is over 6 years old right Bull?

[Jamie]

Originally Posted by Bull Shooter

I agree, and that's why I have penned my letter to Dr. Morton.

Does anyone on the board have a subscription to "The Hunting Report"?

I came across this article (incomplete) and am interested in the context of the comments and in particular the meaning of the word "quirk":

http://www.huntingreport.com/hunting...ils.cfm?id=766

Any enlightenment would be most appreciated and please remember, it is an incomplete article. Regards, Mike

Here is the rest of the story
Big Changes Coming In Alberta Deer Hunting

(Editor Note: As a practicing attorney with a specialty in hunting-related matters, correspondent Ken Nowicki knows more about hunting in southern Canada than anyone we know. Here’s his take on where deer hunting is headed in his home province of Alberta.)


I have been watching the development of Alberta whitetail deer outfitting for the past 20 years. In the early 80s, the industry was small and operators were free to hunt anywhere in the province with no restrictions on hunter numbers. Nowadays, deer outfitters are governed by a self-regulated outfitter society. Outfitters own allocations for specific zones, and they are restricted to hunting in those zones and by the number of allocations they hold.
Make no mistake – big sums of money are involved here. Deer allocations in Alberta are changing hands for upwards of $20,000 and individual hunts are selling for as much as $5,000. The new system has turned what used to be a good-old-boy activity into a genuine business run by professionals. One big change hunters have seen is a change in hunting technique. The days of pickup trucks and “run and gun” are long gone. This is because the law now requires outfitters to have permission to enter any private lands they hunt. “Access is the single biggest issue we have,” reports Ryk Visscher, president of the Alberta Professional Outfitters Association (APOS).

The reason access is so tough an issue in Alberta is a quirk in the law that makes it illegal for anyone to pay a landowner for access to hunt. An outfitter is not even supposed to ask for exclusive rights to hunt on private land, let alone pay for it, according to Visscher. The unusual access law is supported by resident hunters who feared a complete takeover of their hunting by nonresidents. What it’s done is push outfitters in the direction of purchasing land themselves, often with the help of long term hunting clients. Some outfitters are soliciting cash loans from clients and/or involving them in land mortgages in return for long-term hunting privileges. Other outfitters are going out of their way to hire farmers and ranchers as guides in order to obtain the access that goes along with the hire.

What does all this mean for the nonresident hunter looking to buy a single hunt in Alberta, or perhaps get more deeply involved in the province? Well, I think first of all it pays to ask your outfitter what method of hunting will be employed for your hunt. The best success nowadays seems to come from stand-hunting operations. Secondly, I think you need to ask whether your hunt will be conducted on public or private land and, more specifically, whether or not the access is exclusive. It should be noted that no permission is needed to hunt on public land in Alberta and that the entire province is a patchwork of public and private land. This information has to be filtered through success rates as well. There are outfitters who produce terrific deer on public lands, even where they are subject to competition from other outfitters and from resident hunters. Still, there is something wonderful about having complete control of hunting lands.

The prospective Alberta deer hunter should also find out what type of operation his outfitter runs. Does he sell multi-year packages, or is he involved with any hunters who have invested to get a long-term “lease?” Will these hunters get the best hunts? I have no doubt that more and more outfitters and hunters are going to collaborate in this fashion. The Texas-style deer lease or high-fence operation will likely never be in favor or even possible in Alberta, but the quality hunting that is made possible through land ownership is getting more prevalent.

Foreign ownership of farmland in Alberta, incidentally, is not possible at this time. However, a nonresident can take out a mortgage and contract a lease arrangement with an outfitter or Alberta resident, assuring one of good hunting in the context of a safe investment. As a lawyer, I have brokered many of these deals, and some US investors have actually cashed out on increased land prices in recent years. Unfortunately, the plummeting value of the Canadian dollar has hurt that upside to some extent. The gamble today seems to be whether the US dollar will rise even further against our currency.

The development to watch is the ongoing implementation of NAFTA (North American Free Trade Act). Already, it is legal for an American to own and operate a hunting business in Saskatchewan. Here in Alberta, a foreigner can own a license to outfit bird hunts. I believe it is only a matter of lodging the right challenge to our laws and Americans will gain the right to hold deer allocations as well. In point of fact, I have already been retained by an American who has spent a lot of money bankrolling a deer and bear outfit in Alberta. He wants me to get him the right to hold the allocations in his name. Then he can realize his dream of working in the hunting business. I expect the challenge will take a year or more to wind through the court system.

Clearly, NAFTA is beginning to open up a lot of new avenues for American hunters. Over the years, I have handled many investments in Canadian outfitting in the Yukon and British Columbia, as well as in Alberta. One continuing problem is, banks have trouble understanding the outfitting business. This makes it hard for the beginning outfitter to obtain conventional financing, which is what pushes them toward friends and would-be hunters for the money to buy and operate a start-up outfit. Security for the investor has always been one of the key issues. There are legions of stories of investors who have been taken by poorly papered arrangements with a backwoods sharpie. It is better to get things organized properly with legal advice right from the start.

(Postscript: Ken Nowicki tells us, incidentally, that Alberta Professional Outfitters Association publishes a list of outfitters that is must reading by anyone contemplating a hunt in the province.)

..../
Not sure if thats allowed to happen, but what the heck I paid for my subscription

Jamie

[bruceba]

sheephunter it took over 10 years to get the age dropped from 14 to 12 for first time big game hunters. How many before this becomes real?

Originally Posted by bruceba

sheephunter it took over 10 years to get the age dropped from 14 to 12 for first time big game hunters. How many before this becomes real?

Huh...no idea....I was just making sure that Bull knew it was an old atrticle....not commenting at all on its contents...

[Bull Shooter]

Sheep - I did realize that it was an old article, I probably should have referenced that in my post.

Jamie - Thanks for posting the complete article. It appears that it was directed towards American hunters. I'm still unsure of the interpretation of "quirk"? Regards, Mike

Originally Posted by Bull Shooter

Sheep - I did realize that it was an old article, I probably should have referenced that in my post.

Jamie - Thanks for posting the complete article. It appears that it was directed towards American hunters. I'm still unsure of the interpretation of "quirk"? Regards, Mike

The way I read it is that's it's a "quirk" because it's not the common way things are done in the rest of North America. You are right, it was written for U.S. hunters.

[Jamie]

I understood "Quirk" as something different that is allowed in other places, but not in Alberta. I think Ken is looking down on it a bit.

I really don't see what the big deal is with outfitters in this province. They don't seem to get in my way all that to often, but if they do, I tend to think they are trying to make a living while I am just out to have some fun.
Perhaps I am to nice of a person.. Do they have a course that would change that personality trait of mine???
LOLOL

Jamie

.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I think what Morton and Stelmach did recently in regards to the Metis was an absolute stroke of genius....I couldn't be more pleased with the way they dealt with what could have quite possibly been a no win situation for Alberta hunters and wildlife.

I'm with you on this one. The way they pulled the teeth of the Metis special privileges movement was a smart move. We all know and now the metis have admitted that is was always about rights and not about subsistence hunting. Having to prove need is a system I can agree with, we all have to qualify for many things in life and this should be the way for subsistence hunting. Way to go Ted.

[outlaw'd]

Originally Posted by 209x50

I'm with you on this one. The way they pulled the teeth of the Metis special privileges movement was a smart move. We all know and now the metis have admitted that is was always about rights and not about subsistence hunting. Having to prove need is a system I can agree with, we all have to qualify for many things in life and this should be the way for subsistence hunting. Way to go Ted.

Not wanting to hijack this thread, go to the MNA website, and read the press release regarding this move by Ted.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by outlaw'd

Not wanting to hijack this thread, go to the MNA website, and read the press release regarding this move by Ted.

I have read it, more of the usual posturing. I'll bet they'd pay good money to never have seen Trevor Gladue's quote in the newspaper though.

.