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  #181  
Old 12-22-2007, 07:53 AM
russ russ is offline
 
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Punt them, it's time we switched horses.

It's also time to start working over your MLA real hard. We (the resident hunter) have been left out of the process and therefore have every right to be suspicious and untrusting of this initiative. The more I hear, "this will be good, open your mind" the less convinced I am that this plan is the right path.

Remember the golden rule, if it sounds too good to be true, it is.
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  #182  
Old 12-22-2007, 12:09 PM
bruceba bruceba is offline
 
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an e-meil I recieved this am



This should be compulsory reading for any Alberta resident who thinks he / she
would like to continue hunting without paying big dollars, without having to
line up behind non residents and without having to beg or pay nonresidents for
access. Nowicki sounds to me like he's trying to privatize hunting and hunting
lands for personal gain and control by those with the most money, and whether
Albertans believe it or not, that means non residents. This collusion between a
very ugly provincial government, privatized distribution of allocations, and
guides/outfitters trying to (having succeeded in) wrestle control of permitting
from public officials into the hands of "business", is a threat to the public
interest, to hunting, to wildlife, to biological diversity (grass and meat
eaters), and to democracy.

I don't expect any positive changes with this fundamentalist conservative
government, particularly with a democratically and intellectually challenged
Stelmach in charge, but Alberta hunters should be up in arms, and so should
their "good old boy" club, the Alberta Fish and Game Association. I wonder if
they've got the back bone?

The divisions this privatization of wildlife and hunting has created are now
so deep that you can barely find a rancher / farmer who will back up public
resident hunters. And wait until the dollars begin to flow; we'll see how many
allow residents access! And you cant find an outfitter / guide who will side
with Resident hunters. The three factions (rancher-land owner-leasee vs
resident hunter vs guide/outfitter) have forgotten the rule that even first
graders used to know, and that is that habitat and security are essential for
wildlife populations; they've forgotten, in some cases deliberately (Nowicki
seems like a good example) that wildlife is public property, and they've
apparently forgotten that divided almost everyone "falls".

Dark clouds building!
regards,


Here is the rest of the story
Big Changes Coming In Alberta Deer Hunting

(Editor Note: As a practicing attorney with a specialty in hunting-related
matters, correspondent Ken Nowicki knows more about hunting in southern
Canada
than anyone we know. Here's his take on where deer hunting is headed in his
home province of Alberta.)


I have been watching the development of Alberta whitetail deer outfitting for
the past 20 years. In the early 80s, the industry was small and operators
were
free to hunt anywhere in the province with no restrictions on hunter numbers.
Nowadays, deer outfitters are governed by a self-regulated outfitter society.
Outfitters own allocations for specific zones, and they are restricted to
hunting in those zones and by the number of allocations they hold.
Make no mistake - big sums of money are involved here. Deer allocations in
Alberta are changing hands for upwards of $20,000 and individual hunts are
selling for as much as $5,000. The new system has turned what used to be a
good-
old-boy activity into a genuine business run by professionals. One big change
hunters have seen is a change in hunting technique. The days of pickup trucks
and "run and gun" are long gone. This is because the law now requires
outfitters to have permission to enter any private lands they hunt. "Access
is
the single biggest issue we have," reports Ryk Visscher, president of the
Alberta Professional Outfitters Association (APOS).

The reason access is so tough an issue in Alberta is a quirk in the law that
makes it illegal for anyone to pay a landowner for access to hunt. An
outfitter
is not even supposed to ask for exclusive rights to hunt on private land, let
alone pay for it, according to Visscher. The unusual access law is supported
by
resident hunters who feared a complete takeover of their hunting by
nonresidents. What it's done is push outfitters in the direction of
purchasing
land themselves, often with the help of long term hunting clients. Some
outfitters are soliciting cash loans from clients and/or involving them in
land
mortgages in return for long-term hunting privileges. Other outfitters are
going out of their way to hire farmers and ranchers as guides in order to
obtain the access that goes along with the hire.

What does all this mean for the nonresident hunter looking to buy a single
hunt
in Alberta, or perhaps get more deeply involved in the province? Well, I
think
first of all it pays to ask your outfitter what method of hunting will be
employed for your hunt. The best success nowadays seems to come from stand-
hunting operations. Secondly, I think you need to ask whether your hunt will
be
conducted on public or private land and, more specifically, whether or not
the
access is exclusive. It should be noted that no permission is needed to hunt
on
public land in Alberta and that the entire province is a patchwork of public
and private land. This information has to be filtered through success rates
as
well. There are outfitters who produce terrific deer on public lands, even
where they are subject to competition from other outfitters and from resident
hunters. Still, there is something wonderful about having complete control of
hunting lands.

The prospective Alberta deer hunter should also find out what type of
operation
his outfitter runs. Does he sell multi-year packages, or is he involved with
any hunters who have invested to get a long-term "lease?" Will these hunters
get the best hunts? I have no doubt that more and more outfitters and hunters
are going to collaborate in this fashion. The Texas-style deer lease or high-
fence operation will likely never be in favor or even possible in Alberta,
but
the quality hunting that is made possible through land ownership is getting
more prevalent.

Foreign ownership of farmland in Alberta, incidentally, is not possible at
this
time. However, a nonresident can take out a mortgage and contract a lease
arrangement with an outfitter or Alberta resident, assuring one of good
hunting
in the context of a safe investment. As a lawyer, I have brokered many of
these
deals, and some US investors have actually cashed out on increased land
prices
in recent years. Unfortunately, the plummeting value of the Canadian dollar
has
hurt that upside to some extent. The gamble today seems to be whether the US
dollar will rise even further against our currency.

The development to watch is the ongoing implementation of NAFTA (North
American
Free Trade Act). Already, it is legal for an American to own and operate a
hunting business in Saskatchewan. Here in Alberta, a foreigner can own a
license to outfit bird hunts. I believe it is only a matter of lodging the
right challenge to our laws and Americans will gain the right to hold deer
allocations as well. In point of fact, I have already been retained by an
American who has spent a lot of money bankrolling a deer and bear outfit in
Alberta. He wants me to get him the right to hold the allocations in his
name.
Then he can realize his dream of working in the hunting business. I expect
the
challenge will take a year or more to wind through the court system.

Clearly, NAFTA is beginning to open up a lot of new avenues for American
hunters. Over the years, I have handled many investments in Canadian
outfitting
in the Yukon and British Columbia, as well as in Alberta. One continuing
problem is, banks have trouble understanding the outfitting business. This
makes it hard for the beginning outfitter to obtain conventional financing,
which is what pushes them toward friends and would-be hunters for the money
to
buy and operate a start-up outfit. Security for the investor has always been
one of the key issues. There are legions of stories of investors who have
been
taken by poorly papered arrangements with a backwoods sharpie. It is better
to
get things organized properly with legal advice right from the start.

(Postscript: Ken Nowicki tells us, incidentally, that Alberta Professional
Outfitters Association publishes a list of outfitters that is must reading by
anyone contemplating a hunt in the province.)
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  #183  
Old 12-22-2007, 12:24 PM
Mr. Magoo
 
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Default Must wade in on this one.

I have read the forum for a while and found many interesting topics. I have never felt compelled to post until this very disturbing subject arose.
As I see it there are essentially three prevailing schools of thinking that have emerged. One - this is possibly OK since residents are promised more access (personified by Jaime). Two - wait and see, there is not enough flesh on the bones to even begin to comment (Sheep). And three, this pilot will serve a very few with money and will not benefit the average resident hunter (Lurch and many others).

I have to throw my lot in with the last group and in so doing must refute the first two group's stances.

1. Could benefit us residents with more opportunities - I sincerely doubt it. I am familiar with Deseret property and it has always been outside the pale of the rest of 108. It has always been about getting the cash and freezing out the residents including members of the local mormon churchs. It is American in outlook and is out of sinc with the long established traditions of this province of reasonable access. I get the feeling that since the land happens to exists in Canada then the solution is simply to bring US style laws to bear to legitimize what is already happening and to increase profits.
The property is huge and I can forsee getting my draw for trophy mule in 108 and attempting to access the ranch under the new pilot program. Does anyone out there really think that armed with my 35 dollar tag I will get the same access as the wealthy non-resident alien? I will likely be required to park at the buildings and have foot access while truck loads of chortling paying customers will speed past in their guide's trucks to prime coulees 12 miles distant.
As so many of the participants of the forum have already said - this will not benefit the average resident.
2. Wait for the details - waiting will not help, only put us further behind in efforts to oppose this thing. The fact sheet is enough to begin thoughtful dialogue and the details will likely not stray too far from the main principles found therein. The principles are what stink and the details will only cloud the issue with legalese. I believe this program will benefit a very few and not improve access for residents nor stewardship of publicly owned wildlife. Opposition should start now and be long and loud. I notice that the pilot will be scrapped in five years time if all parties are not satisfied. I hope the policy committee will be wider and more representative of the rank and file Alberta hunter.

Regards,
Magoo
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  #184  
Old 12-22-2007, 01:06 PM
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Hmmmm.... This is one big stinky pile of poo-poo.......Ive said it before and i will say it again.....APOS needs to go away in the southern half of our province. I know, i know, but it brings in money to our province, right....or is it left??? We need some foreward thinking people to get ahold of the reins with all of our sustainable resources related issues, and get on with bearing down and kickin some ass. Does this really come as any surprise though. We have been run out of a bunch of land in the southern part of this province for a long-long time. Afew of us down here have been just waiting and watching for this lying bunch of morons with APOS and all their money hungry friends, to gain an upperhand.

keep a strain on er.
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  #185  
Old 12-22-2007, 02:05 PM
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Why is it that any time theres a conversation about these guys, they all run to the hills and hide???? I know there are quite afew APOS members on here, how come you fellas aint weighing in on this sort of thing? I wanna hear some loudmouth go off about how us and our wildlife owe em a living!!!!

keep a strain on er. packhuntr.
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  #186  
Old 12-22-2007, 02:18 PM
Rackmastr Rackmastr is offline
 
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Pack....lookin for a fight is childish.....why cant you just post your post and leave it be? Who cares if no one wants to step up and argue against your little rant?!? You rant on wildly and throw accusations around, and then expect someone to just step up and argue back.....you seem to be acting more like the loudmouth in this situation......
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  #187  
Old 12-22-2007, 03:09 PM
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I knew an APOS supporter out there was gonna show up. How ya doin Rack... My little rant??? I missed out on this whole thing, but i guess im the only lucky one between the two of us, as i have my vision, and was able to read back. I suppose your silence speaks for ya. I most definatly will be on both the telephone and the pencil tonight. This sort of thing is lunacy and cant come to pass.

keep a strain on er.
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  #188  
Old 12-22-2007, 03:11 PM
Rackmastr Rackmastr is offline
 
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Haha.....yep my silence speaks for me......

Nowhere did I say I was an APOS supporter....I just think childish arguing and calling people out for NOT fighting with you is a bit weak....

But hey....have fun....
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  #189  
Old 12-22-2007, 03:30 PM
robert B
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by packhuntr View Post
I know there are quite afew APOS members on here, how come you fellas aint weighing in on this sort of thing? I wanna hear some loudmouth go off about how us and our wildlife owe em a living!!!!

keep a strain on er. packhuntr.
I be thinking they are counting there potentail winfall $$$$$ its comeing and they know it .
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  #190  
Old 12-22-2007, 03:30 PM
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Quote:
Afew of us down here have been just waiting and watching for this lying bunch of morons with APOS and all their money hungry friends, to gain an upperhand.
thems some big words for you pack,bet if your attitude wasnt so harsh you probly woudlnt of been run out of your hunting spots now would you have.
your spouting off and this hasnt even begun yet,
and who is the moron in apos that you are referring too, since your spouting off.
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  #191  
Old 12-22-2007, 03:35 PM
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Well, your probuably right Rack, i also dont think that added to the conversation at all. Oh well, mabey next time... Wouldnt wanna make those that stand to gain/destroy, angry, that might be childish. You live here in Alberta as well i thought???

keep a strain on er.

Last edited by packhuntr; 12-22-2007 at 03:36 PM. Reason: way too late.
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  #192  
Old 12-22-2007, 07:37 PM
Waxy Waxy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 209x50 View Post
And sooo, you are doing just what exactly to change that?
What kind of a response is that? Nothing of value to say on the topic so try and single me out personally? I can't say as I'm surprised.

I've discussed the issue with several people here, and I plan on spreading the word to those I know. Once I've got a feeling for the direction that those here and others I know whose opinions I value think we should be going, I'll be writing letters and attending meetings if possible.

I'm doing what I can, but no one person is going to do it alone. Hopefully enough of us step that it will add up.

There are some here on this board whose voice would carry a lot of weight both in the hunting community and with the general public, perhaps they'll step up, when the time is right for them...

Waxy
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  #193  
Old 12-22-2007, 08:15 PM
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one of the main concerns that I have is that the rancher will have tags to sell. Is that going to be at a set price? If he is against hunting who is going to tell him he has to sell them? Will he pick and choose between his friends, family or an outsider he doesn't know. If he has 20 tags (just as an example) and has 10 family members who want them and he sells them to them who is to say that when the next person comes looking for one he won't say sorry I am all sold out. This giving the land owner a tag alotment to sell is ludicris. It will only help the landowner not the average Albertan.
on a side note to some here. Try to stick to constructive conversation on topic.
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  #194  
Old 12-22-2007, 09:20 PM
bruceba bruceba is offline
 
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Another question would be will the numbers from the tags be recorded and used only on that property or could they be used anywhere in that WMU?
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  #195  
Old 12-23-2007, 08:20 AM
lurch
 
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.

Last edited by lurch; 01-22-2008 at 01:24 PM.
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  #196  
Old 12-24-2007, 01:49 PM
albertabiggame albertabiggame is offline
 
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Default non-resident wanting to hunt

you know it seems as though things have gone fairly well for residents and non residents. i am a very distant non res. and love coming to alberta. no i am not rich or wealthy in the least but i work extra so i can come up there every year so please do not catergorize all non res. as wealthy / rich. i know you guys are only trying to protect the animals (whitetail) that you feel you should have the rights to hunt. just be glad that you do not have to pay land access fees just to get on a piece of property. or pay memberships to hunting clubs. you guys have the best hunting grounds in north america. i have hunted in many places before but i now save all my money every year just to come to aberta. if i have missed the point to this thread forgive me but a good outfitter is the only way for me to hunt there. i realy love coming there and i know alot of people who love coming there. merry christmas to you all
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  #197  
Old 12-26-2007, 10:33 AM
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Albertabiggame, Glad to hear that you enjoying coming up here every yr to go on a hunt. I enjoy guiding so I am glad that you guys come up.
But I don't recall anywhere in this thread were anyone has said that non-residents should not be able to hunt here. But what we are concerned about is that if these programs do go through there is going to be some BIG land holders, that currently do NOT give access to there land for hunting, that will recieve tags to sell to outfitters or residents or become outfitters themselves. So the big guys that are not allowing anyone on are going to get rewarded so to say to allow hunters on. What about the little land owners that have always let hunters on? DO you think that they are not going to be a little out of sorts now as they have never recieved any rewards for there stewardship! Now if they stop granting access tell they get a reward (paid). Then it is going to start COSTING us as residents to hunt any private land. And unless you are a wealthy RES or NON-RES. YOu are probably not going to get on one of those Big ranches either. (Now I will admit that there is a bit of speculation in here, but we got to try and think about what this is going to lead to. AS I am not so trusting to believe that the Gov. has my best interest in mind.) So that is what this thread is about.
HAPPY HUNTING
Rust
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  #198  
Old 12-26-2007, 11:58 AM
bruceba bruceba is offline
 
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lurch to clarify my point I should mention that some guides are leasing land around the big ranches under the alias of family farms. Whats stopping them from aquiring the tags and using them around said ranches and not allowing access that they control with the lease. Might be speculation but funny how it's all falling in place.
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  #199  
Old 12-26-2007, 12:13 PM
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Very interesting thread.

I think it is important to remember that this is a PILOT PROJECT. That is why it has been limited to properties of a specific minimum size.....there's only a handful of them, thus much easier for SRD to monitor, and harder for the landowners to abuse knowing that they are under a pretty bright spotlight. All of the facts will not be know until after the five years is up and the wildlife managers have a chance to crunch the numbers, as well as gain hunter feedback.

Of course a price cap must be set, but that exact number will be almost impossible to determine unless this is permitted to run for a few years in the free market to find that price point.

I personally would prefer to see tax incentives and insurance restrictions on crop damage claims, used to open up the land. However this is the path that will be tried first. At least it's something.

I think that if it manages to open up some more land to hunting, then it's a good thing. So what if they only let family and friends on? These family and friends hunted somewhere else before. If anything it will result in either MORE people hunting (a good thing) or LESS people hunting in the same areas, another good thing.

I also believe that the people who may have the MOST to lose here are the outfitters. If they are currently charging (x) amount of dollars for a hunt, will they not have to reduce their prices in order to stay competitive? Where the demand may not change (ie numbers of Americans hunting) that greatly in the face of a higher supply of tags/'mom and pop' outfitters. That is a proven supply/demand model that always results in price reductions.

I say run it for the 5 years, and then stop it for at least one year in order to get it right. Who knows? It could be a good thing for both hunters and wildlife habitat. Glass half full boys!

Tree
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  #200  
Old 12-26-2007, 06:04 PM
albertabiggame albertabiggame is offline
 
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Default non-resident hunting

Rust am i to understand it that you guys get permission from land owners to hunt. now is this there private land or land they lease from the govt. you see in some of our western states ranchers lease govt. owned land and they tell you if you can hunt it. most of the time they say no because someone(outfitter) is leasing it. or they charge an access fee ($$$$$). ???? is this why more and more outfitters are buying land to hunt ??? and just so i understand (alberta laws) a rancher cannot lease his own private land to anyone?
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  #201  
Old 12-26-2007, 06:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by albertabiggame View Post
Rust am i to understand it that you guys get permission from land owners to hunt. now is this there private land or land they lease from the govt. you see in some of our western states ranchers lease govt. owned land and they tell you if you can hunt it. most of the time they say no because someone(outfitter) is leasing it. or they charge an access fee ($$$$$). ???? is this why more and more outfitters are buying land to hunt ??? and just so i understand (alberta laws) a rancher cannot lease his own private land to anyone?
-As a resident we have to ask permission to hunt on privately owned land. -We also have to ask to hunt on land that is leased from the gov. It is usally a grazing lease. Cheaper for a rancher to lease land then to own large areas. My understanding is that if they have cattle or livestock on it they can denie access, but if there is no, good, logical reason they are not surpose to be able keep u off.(BUT THIS IS A HOLE NEW ISSUE SO DO NOT QUOTE ME ON THIS. FOR MORE INFO GO TO THE "LEASE LAND" THREAD THERE IS LOTS OF READING THERE FOR YA!!!)
-And then there is lot of Public land that any resident can hunt and does not require permission.

As the regulations read now. It is Unlawful to directly or indirectly buy or sell, barter or trade, or offer to buy or sell access to any land for the purpose or hunting any big game, furbearing animals or game birds. So the short of it is that PAID HUNTING IN ALBERTA IS ILEAGLE.
There may be outfitters that compinsate a landowner somehow for exclusive access, but they are not surpose to.
There is lots of info in this thread. I hope this helps a bit. Feel free to keep asking questions too.
Rust
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  #202  
Old 12-26-2007, 07:59 PM
albertabiggame albertabiggame is offline
 
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Thanks Rust Got Your Pm
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  #203  
Old 12-27-2007, 10:38 AM
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This is an interesting topic. It will be interesting to see what comes of the pilot project.

If we want to ensure legal paid hunting stays out of Alberta we should be lobbying to remove guiding on private land ( public land only ). I know several guides that are already preasuring for only paid hunting here so if we sit idle it will be the way of the future. There is just too much $$$ to be made and it will be exploited if we look the other way.
This is the only way I can see to take back the opportunities that we have lost and secure them for the future.

That's my 2 cents on this.....
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  #204  
Old 12-27-2007, 10:51 AM
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I just say good luck to all those hunters asking permission to hunt in the same zones where some are compensated and some are not. I have never hunted in those zones, but I feel strongly against it.
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  #205  
Old 12-27-2007, 12:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by j m View Post
This is an interesting topic. It will be interesting to see what comes of the pilot project.

If we want to ensure legal paid hunting stays out of Alberta we should be lobbying to remove guiding on private land ( public land only ). I know several guides that are already preasuring for only paid hunting here so if we sit idle it will be the way of the future. There is just too much $$$ to be made and it will be exploited if we look the other way.
This is the only way I can see to take back the opportunities that we have lost and secure them for the future.

That's my 2 cents on this.....

this is THE ONLY way to kill the paid access issue..hands down.
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  #206  
Old 12-30-2007, 01:58 PM
bruceba bruceba is offline
 
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So if they wanted to have this pilot project why didn't they do a count on these ranches and give the land owners a % of tags based on the game population on their property. Has anyone found out if the tags are limited to mule deer or will it include the Trophy Antelope and Bull Elk tag allocation thats coming out in 2008? Some of you seem tied to someone who knows someone any answers?
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  #207  
Old 12-30-2007, 06:46 PM
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.

Last edited by lurch; 01-22-2008 at 01:24 PM.
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  #208  
Old 12-30-2007, 06:53 PM
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Hey Bingo

I would agree that the best way to stop this from happening, or getting any worse is to stop outfitters from being able to guide on private land but HOW can we change a rule that is already in place. Is it too far gone????
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  #209  
Old 12-30-2007, 07:12 PM
Vindalbakken Vindalbakken is offline
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Where were you folks when we tried to stop this thing in the beginning?
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  #210  
Old 12-30-2007, 07:32 PM
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Default ???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Vindalbakken View Post
Where were you folks when we tried to stop this thing in the beginning?
Could you explain a little better please? Has this idea been proposed before or something? Cause the very first time I have ever heard about anything close to this is when this thread was started.
Thanks
Rust
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