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Old 08-10-2017, 09:40 PM
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Ken07AOVette Ken07AOVette is offline
 
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Default Any pilots here?

I always said that before I turned 40 I was going to get my pilots license.
I have about 3 weeks to go, and I am not in my 40's anymore.
So, before I turn 60 I am going to do it. 10 years should be a safe bet, right?
What do you fly?
What is the cost of getting a license now?
I am looking at buying a very nice low wing so I do not have to rent a plane, which I am told will save a metric ton of money.
Are you mountain rated? I would love to fly to Rupert in my own plane.
I have to look into insurance, storage, overhaul cost, etc, any and all information would be great.
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Old 08-10-2017, 10:13 PM
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I used to fly ultralights. You would have a hard time getting me in one now. Lol.
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Old 08-10-2017, 10:28 PM
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PA 28- Cherokee 140 Low Wing

Was in the early 80's so the costs would just upset you.
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Old 08-10-2017, 10:52 PM
spoiledsaskhunter spoiledsaskhunter is offline
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76.....cost 1800 bucks, all in.

Cessna 150 c/w 150 hp engine rented wet for 22 bucks/hr.

is that upsetting?
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Old 08-10-2017, 11:13 PM
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Started to a few years back, then diagnosed type 1 diabetic. So they said no go. Cant drive a school bus either.
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Old 08-10-2017, 11:20 PM
prarie_boy1 prarie_boy1 is offline
 
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I've had my license for 14 years now. The cost has certainly gone up recently however hard to give you an exact figure because there are so many variables involved. There is Transport Canada minimum requirements but everyone learns at a different pace so some people end up needing more training hours then others. And as for buying your own aircraft if money isn't an issue id say do it but for the average person they generally don't fly enough in a year to justify a personal aircraft not to mention they can be a giant money pit! Feel free to PM me and I will give you some more info.
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Old 08-11-2017, 06:51 AM
bobinthesky bobinthesky is offline
 
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There is some money to be saved by buying your own and getting your licence in it instead of renting. I would consult the CFI at the school you intend to get an instructor from to figure out what type would be best, a Cessna 172 would be a safe bet as they are abundant and simple to fly. They're also a bit more capable that a 152. You have to remember that most flight instructors generally don't have experience on a lot of different types.
It's best to have a plan to travel. That is to say that once you have your licence flying around the patch gets boring pretty quick, it's a bit like driving your car around town for the sake of driving your car around town. The airplane owners that have no where to go get tired of their airplanes and then they sit, sometimes for years!
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Old 08-11-2017, 06:57 AM
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If you have ever read the book about Ralph Edwards (Lonesome Lake) he learned how to fly when he was 60. He flew a Taylorcraft which is a pretty dosile low powered bird but very reliable. You still have time to get in the game. First thing if you are really serious is a medical.

I have a PA-18 Super Cub and have had it for 15 years. It is a very forgiving bird and I really enjoy flying it. We have our own strip and hangar and usually put on about 3-400 hours a year. However it is not a long distance type aircraft. Most people don't come close to that many hours per year so owning is sometimes not a great financial decision. An aircraft just sitting around isn't an optimum situation for a maintenance schedule either.

Join a club and get to know a few private pilots. Most guys will gladly take you up and let you give it a go and see if you really like it. Go to one of the schools and take an introductory flight.

Mountain flying into BC takes alot of planning and weather knowledge in order to be safe. You might get there with decent weather but you also might be weathered out in Rupert for days or a week at a time.

Good luck with your new adventure and stay safe. Flying is one of my greatest passions and enjoyments.
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Old 08-11-2017, 08:32 AM
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Very interesting discussion ....

I know there are fractional ownerships available for corporate jets which include storage, maintenance, etc.. but these were for 8-10 seaters and cost a ton of money to operate - but, of course, I assume you are not looking to drop a few million in a partnership and get a maintenance/hangar bill for a few hundred grand a year.

I used one for years when I worked in oil/gas and it was great to be able to be in/out of a few cities in a day for meetings.

so ......... I have to wonder .........If something exists for prop jobs and you don't necessarily need a pilot. Fractional ownership might be a nice way to get a little more plane for your money and reduce the overall operating/maint. costs.

Your biggest stumbling block is going to be finding a plane with the range (for a decent price) if your plan is to go from Lloyd to Rupert in one jump for a decent price - that's a long ways for a small economical prop job.
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Old 08-11-2017, 08:40 AM
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I'm not sure the Rupert trip would be something you want to do as a newer pilot, in a single engine puddle jumper. Mountain flying in a single engine plane is an unappealing thought to me, but so is flying over northern Alberta/Saskatchewan bush.

I grew up in a Cessna 310, 421 and Beech Baron. Always felt safer in a multi than any of the myriad of singles Dad had. The smaller singles were way more fun, but for serious travel the others were better.
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Old 08-11-2017, 08:51 AM
Treehound Treehound is offline
 
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I'm a commercial bush pilot. My license was expensive 18 years ago I can't even imagine the price now. I won't discourage you from your dreams but here's my 2 cents.
Airplanes are very expensive - how much do you actually want to fly? I mean give it a thought and figure out hours in a year and come up with a number. Based on that there are plenty of options including buying your own airplane, buying a share of an airplane, buying block time in an airplane, or just joining the flying club and renting an airplane.
All of the above depend on how much you want to fly.
Where do you want to fly and with whom? A recreational license is affordable but carries restrictions. Daytime only, no crossing the border, and I think your only allowed 1 PAX but honestly it's been a long time since I looked at any of those regs so don't quote me on it.
Why a low wing? Your narrowing your choices down to a few types and price range. A high wing is more available, and much better for sight seeing and visibility. Some of the best bargains out there in light aircraft have high wings.
Fuel is an issue. AV Gas is becoming scarce and you mentioned Rupert (I've flown out of Rupert for 14 years) - you can't get it there. So consider an aircraft with a smaller engine that can safely run Mogas (car gas).
There is actually no such thing as a "Mountain Rating" this is something sold by flight schools and really depending on who's selling it makes it's worth questionable. I wouldn't recommend venturing into the Rockies without some basic experience and some advice and instruction from a pro.
I have some spead sheets I can send you. Helps with cost estimates. I'd say go for it but you need to really think about how much you are ACTUALLY going to fly. In the end it may be cheaper and safer to joining a club and rent, or buy block time or a share. PM if you have any questions.
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Old 08-11-2017, 08:51 AM
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tacomama tacomama is offline
 
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Default $$$

I have worked in aviation for 15 years. Mostly on the maintenance side and lately in the aviation safety side, and with multiple companies/operators.
Anything to do with airplanes will cost large amounts of money.
For the recreational user, I would highly suggest wet-leasing an aircraft. Unless you have a boatload of money I would not suggest owning an airplane. The maintenance alone can cost you a lot and that doesn't count all the additional costs when service advisories and service bulletins come out and you have to comply with them.
Unless you fly a lot or use your aircraft as a working aircraft, then just rent or lease. Just my 0.02

The other aspect could be fractional ownership, but those costs could still be fairly high for the recreational user and fractional usually happens more on the corporate jet side.
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Old 08-11-2017, 08:52 AM
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You can do it, Ken

Even after flying professionally for 20 years, I myself cannot justify the costs involved in owning my own aircraft. As much as I would like to, sometimes, just can't do it.

That's just me though
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Old 08-11-2017, 09:07 AM
.257Weatherby .257Weatherby is offline
 
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Its all about hours and the cost per hour Ken.
Ask a boat owner if it is worth it (owning a boat).
Yes, I know you have one in the garage..
They are a hole in the ocean in which one pours in loads of money and airplane...
I'm sure if you have the time and the inkling to do so you can and will get your license.
And remember there are Old Pilots and there are Bold Pilots.
There just aint no OLD Bold Pilots.

Hello Tower !

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Old 08-11-2017, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spoiledsaskhunter View Post
76.....cost 1800 bucks, all in.

Cessna 150 c/w 150 hp engine rented wet for 22 bucks/hr.

is that upsetting?
In the good old days, government paid a good part of that, handy to have pilots in case of a war. betting your first hurdle will be to pass the physical.

Grizz
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Old 08-11-2017, 11:06 AM
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Ken, I am not a pilot but I have considered getting my license. Years ago the price of a fixed wing license was about 10 and a rotary license was about 50. A good part of that would be windshield time, so costs might be cut by owning your own plane.
Years back I worked with a guy that was building time to get his instructors ticket, if my memory is correct. We talked about me getting my license, and he said if all I wanted was a bare license then almost any plane would do. If I was going to want a float endorsement, then maybe having a float plane to put my hours in on would be an idea.
What I am trying to say is if you are looking at buying a plane, then maybe stretch the budget to cover to cover eventualities that could come up.
Just a thought.
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Old 08-11-2017, 11:28 AM
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Currently working on my PPL. For the rental plane (Cessna 172), ground school, instructor and test the cost is going to be around 12K - they say it varies between 10 and 20. It is very dependant on each individual and how quickly you learn. Good luck, for me it is one of the best experiences I have ever had. Have fun with Spins and Spirals!
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Old 08-11-2017, 01:08 PM
mxz1997 mxz1997 is offline
 
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Don't discount ultralight aviation. There are a light nicer planes out there than what most people picture when they hear "ultralight". Take a look at the Zenair CH601. Training can be had for $3000 and you can do all the maintenance yourself with no annual inspections required.
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Old 08-11-2017, 01:29 PM
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I got my license between Alaska and Washington in 2004-05. Back then 110ll was running around 3.50$ gallon a plane at my flight school was running 65$ hourwet which was extremely reasonable. Even at that it cost me right around 10000$ to get my license. I'd love to get back into it but it's so darn expensive I can't justify it right now. I sure do miss it as there ain't nothing like it in the world. If I ever had a chance though I'd get current and go after my instrument rating and get my sea plane rating in aheart beat.
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Old 08-11-2017, 04:05 PM
qwert qwert is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Indy View Post
Currently working on my PPL. For the rental plane (Cessna 172), ground school, instructor and test the cost is going to be around 12K - they say it varies between 10 and 20. It is very dependant on each individual and how quickly you learn. Good luck, for me it is one of the best experiences I have ever had. Have fun with Spins and Spirals!
The time to test likely also depends on your instructors need for hours and income.
My advice to all students is
(after lots of fully logged 'intro flights' with different schools, aircraft types, and 231hr new CFI, certified flying instructors),
spend the extra $10-20/hr to hire a class 1 CFI (probably the schools chief flying instructor), who already has all the hours they need, and experience and knowledge to teach to individual learning styles and ability.

I tried very hard flying several different C172 aircraft, and using full pro-spin inputs, but they all spiraled out in 1 3/4 turns or less. A C152 will spin much nicer, but for the real spin experience you need a Citabria, Cub or similar. These aircraft will spin forever, recovery is very predictable, and are fun to learn to recover on a designated heading.
Give yourself a real treat and learning experience, and find a Citabria (airbatic spelled backwards) and a good acro instructor, to teach you low G/load acro and 'unusual attitude recovery' maneuvers like rolls, loops, !/2 Cubans and the 'Beggs/Mueller technique' for spin recovery.
The most disorienting experience I have ever had was a demonstration of an inverted flat spin performed in an Extra 300 under full power.

IMHO, the best training aircraft is a Citabria 7ECA, it needs to be flown right to tie-down, and WILL force you to learn to use your feet, and WILL make you a better flyer.
IMHO, the Cub is a GREAT aircraft (and very safe, it can just barely kill you),
but it gets off the ground too easily/quickly to properly learn the inputs required for smooth ground run and transition to flight.

IMHE, flight training is a great experience, and will make you better at everything else you do.

'A PPL is just a license to learn, in an aircraft you are always a student.'

'If God had meant us to fly, he would have given us more money.'

Good Luck, YMMV.

Last edited by qwert; 08-11-2017 at 04:12 PM.
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Old 08-11-2017, 04:25 PM
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As mentioned above, don't overlook an Ultralight. I acquired my PPL in 1968 .. at a total cost of 600.00 (tax deductible). Later in life I purchased an all metal Advanced Ultralight (Bush Caddy) and have never enjoyed flying more. Advanced Ultralights are relatively inexpensive to purchase, train, maintain and operate and will get you safely to most anyplace you may want to go. Regrettably, I sold it two years ago.

At 60 yrs of age you still have lots of time to fulfil your ambition. Do it!
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Old 08-11-2017, 05:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salavee View Post
As mentioned above, don't overlook an Ultralight. I acquired my PPL in 1968 .. at a total cost of 600.00 (tax deductible). Later in life I purchased an all metal Advanced Ultralight (Bush Caddy) and have never enjoyed flying more. Advanced Ultralights are relatively inexpensive to purchase, train, maintain and operate and will get you safely to most anyplace you may want to go. Regrettably, I sold it two years ago.

At 60 yrs of age you still have lots of time to fulfil your ambition. Do it!
50! I have 10 more years to hit that number


Great advice guys, keep it coming.

I don't have any vices so partaking in hobbies is fairly easy, this is just the next one and I am definately looking forward to getting away from grounded traffic.
I will get my license, I just have to decide if I want to buy or rent, and believe me I research the hell out of everything before I pull the plug.
I went into the big boat fairly quick, happened to find the right deal at the right time. I think I can get a fairly nice plane for a hundred thousand. One I was looking at was $45,000 but a little older than I want.
Like everything else right now, it is a buyers market.
I know the high wings are a better trainer, but I am far more interested in low wing flying. After a few discovery flights I may change my mind.
So many things to consider, I know.
I try to buy right, so it is not a complete wash, more of an investment.
Please keep the discussion going, I am really enjoying this.
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Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck
I wasn't thinking far enough ahead for an outcome, I was ranting. By definition, a rant doesn't imply much forethought.....
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Old 08-11-2017, 06:15 PM
Arty Arty is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette View Post
I always said that before I turned 40 I was going to get my pilots license.
I have about 3 weeks to go, and I am not in my 40's anymore.
So, before I turn 60 I am going to do it. 10 years should be a safe bet, right?
What do you fly?
What is the cost of getting a license now?
I am looking at buying a very nice low wing so I do not have to rent a plane, which I am told will save a metric ton of money.
Are you mountain rated? I would love to fly to Rupert in my own plane.
I have to look into insurance, storage, overhaul cost, etc, any and all information would be great.
Wow. A big can of worms that one.

First, continuing at 60 IMO is doable, but will take more time and conscious dedication than before. I wouldn't start fresh from zero anymore in any a/c type. I'd guess 10 grand for a PPL now, which would be the most expensive license/rating. The follow-ons are cheaper, but essential for serious flying. IFR and Nights at a minimum. Please don't do a 'recreational pilot permit'.

I would also choose an a/c type that does not need lots of relatively quick reflexes and adrenaline-charged decisions as others might. And I would first seriously consider whether I was able to fly high numbers of hours year 'round until permanently quitting, to stay current, not limited by personal health and fitness, money, business, other distractions or time limitations.

After the PPL and basic ratings I would limit myself to one capable, modern, forgiving aircraft and get to know it well. Then choose to fly in relatively benign conditions.

For initial training, it's a very good idea to have your own dedicated high-wing, problem-free, low-hours a/c. Take it up when YOU need or want to, and not have to dance around the last 2 free slots in the club rental reserve book, and then have to synchronize that with your instructors availability. And not have 35 years of scum baked onto everything, every bit of plastic threatening to break loose when doing your run-ups, and have the radio cutting in and out on busy final. Maybe you could even lease yours out to the flying club for half the week that you know you won't use it, to pay for maintenance, if you are OK with idea of heavy landings in it by other students. Then use it to build hours and then sell it. A C-172 wouldn't be bad, as its capabilities are well known.

Then I'd gradually migrate into an efficient modern known quantity turbofuel with modern avionics, like a DA-62 diesel twin, or a PC-12. Maybe a Cirrus, but the idea of sidesticks personally give me the creeps. No Mooneys, Pitts, Sukhois, TBMs, King Airs, Bonanzas, WWII stuff, or radial engines.

Not quite sure yet how I feel about seaplanes or modern flying boats like the Dornier Seastar. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=628ZPF_0WkY

Most of my non-powered flights were high-mountain dynamic conditions in gliders, which is great if you like action. But if unique is what you seek, there are self-powered gliders with retractable power plants (jet or prop), for when the thermals won't cooperate.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_IQIF_VqTE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJV4vcuKww4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeXV5ij4_t4
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Old 08-11-2017, 06:24 PM
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I took my PPl dozen years ago, was about $6500.00 all in. I utilized my old mans books from 1975. It was fun. However the spin kind of scared me the first time. Picked up a sportys PPL kit for a refresher with DVD. Pretty good, gives you good overview.

http://www.sportys.com/pilotshop/lea...e-kit-dvd.html
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Old 08-11-2017, 06:38 PM
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Got my PPL through Air Cadets in the late 80's at age 17. Trained on Tommahawks and was checked out on Cessna 172's. Nothing like taking your prom date up for a two hour flight on graduation night.

I have let it lapse since. My oldest boy got his glider pilots license through Air Cadets recently and is going for his power license next year. If he gets it I will have to get myself checked out again so that I can fly with him. It's not cheap.
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Old 08-11-2017, 06:50 PM
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I'm not horribly worried about it being cheap, since I brought the big boat back from Quebec 2 years ago I have added radar, 2 fishfinders, a swim deck, 6 salmon rigs and a couple spare rods, 4 halibut rigs, 5 inflatable life jackets, traps, anchors, electric steering for the kicker, all the hardware for several species of saltwater fish, etc. It's my hobby, I understand it takes money to have 1.
I look at flying the same, it is just the next big hobby.
Can't take it with me, and I said years ago while I am able to have fun, I am going to have fun.
I can see flying being a lot of fun, we will see.
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Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck
I wasn't thinking far enough ahead for an outcome, I was ranting. By definition, a rant doesn't imply much forethought.....
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Old 08-11-2017, 07:29 PM
qwert qwert is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette View Post
snip
After a few discovery flights
snip
These are the real key to both select a school, aircraft, and instructor, and save significant money.

As a student, you pay
instructor time for the pre-flight,
plus aircraft rental and instructor time from engine start to shutdown,
plus instructor time for post flight de-brief.

The school's incremental operating and maintenance costs are based only on air-time, which is why they can offer cheap 'discovery flights'.

The 231 hr (200hrs for CPL + 30 for class 4 CFI rating) instructor is a little like a car salesman waiting for a walk-in.
The instructor sees a walk-in as a 'prospect' who may purchase LOTS of instructor time and dual hours, which the CFI can log as PIC (pilot in command). They need to build PIC time to move to a better job.

For a 'discovery flight',
the pre-flight inspection time (that a student would normally pay for), will be considered as an opportunity to sell the prospect the advantages of the school's aircraft and them-self as an instructor.
The taxi time is similar, and is not logged as air-time for expensive required maintenance, fuel is negligible.
The pre-flight run-up testing is similar.
The instructor will usually talk the 'prospect' through the takeoff, and the flight, and the landing approach, then 'take control' for the touch-down and roll out, then give control to the 'prospect' for taxi to tie-down.
The post-flight de-brief is the last opportunity for the instructor (salesman) to close the sale, and they probably do not have anything better to do but talk about the flight and their teaching objectives. This is when the 'prospect' brings out their personal 'pilot log book' for the instructor to sign (and CFI #) to certify the (total time from start-up to shut-down) as 'dual instruction' received.

A 'prospect' can log an unlimited number of 'discovery flight' hours (with a CFI) as 'dual instruction received'.
Take (and log) 'discovery flights' (with a CFI) when ever near a new airport and with all the schools in your area.
At some point you will likely find an instructor that is a real pleasure to fly with and learn from.
IMHO this is what you are really searching for as you need to find a knowledgeable and experienced instructor that inspires you.
As I said in post 20, IMHO, the extra cost of a class 1 CFI is most often a real bargain.

NEVER pay in advance, as schools go broke regularly. (Where do you think the expression 'fly by night' came from?)

Ground schools are another place that new 231hr CFIs often use as 'lost leaders' to 'prospect' for new clients.
Ground schools at the flying school are most often much more expensive.
Ground schools are NOT compulsory and the requirement can be met with 'self study'. The desirability of this is dependent on the individual students learning style and ability.
Ground school kits are usually over-priced, with a lot of un-needed 'stuff', most of which can be found in the used market or from graduate students.

There is no real time limit for training and hours are valid for life, but some written tests may expire.
Many people find the training is more enjoyable than flying after licensing, and free of the legal responsibilities AND LIABILITIES of Licensed pilots.

No medical certification is required to receive 'dual instruction', but is required to fly 'solo'.

IMHO, flight training is an extremely pleasurable and personally rewarding experience.
Do it for fun, licensing is secondary, many people get their license and never fly again.

Good Luck, YMMV.
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Old 08-11-2017, 11:06 PM
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Did my ppl in the mid "80s in a Cessna 152 - a nice little two seater. Followed up with a night endorsement in a 172 and this was great - no exams, just a nice experience with the right instructor while logging hours and learning something new. The 172 is a very nice aircraft and probably the low wing match would be the Piper four place (180?). I did check out in a Piper 140 (2 seater) but still preferred the Cessna's. The only real difference I can remember other than better high wing visibility is that the 140 dropped a little more quickly on the landing approach so power was important.

At that time the Cessna 152 was using green gas and if the plane was not used regularly, the plugs seemed to foul up to much. I remember spending numerous times during the run up, revving up and down to "burn the plugs clean". Wouldn't recommend the 152 as a private aircraft unless you don't mind cleaning the plugs before using. There was an after market head available for the 152 but not sure if it worked out. Not many 152's on the market now.

Somewhat later I got checked out on a Cessna 172 RG (retractable wheels) and this was a rush for me. New learnings re handling and a little more speed - especially in the circuit. I invested in a nice set of David Clark head phones for this and it was so much nicer than using the flying school models. Would recommend this for the ppl as well. The RG would be a nice cross country aircraft until moving into a twin.

Now, age has me flying all sorts of aircraft on the computer using Microsoft flight (with a standard yoke control unit/plus a joystick for the appropriate planes) and foot pedals. It gets quite realistic
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  #29  
Old 08-11-2017, 11:51 PM
260 Rem 260 Rem is offline
 
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Location: East Central Alberta
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Ken, why not build your own aircraft? One of my boys started, but marriage, kids etc grounded the plan.
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  #30  
Old 08-12-2017, 08:22 AM
farmerbrown farmerbrown is offline
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It's such a nice day I'm going to fire up the PA-18 and head out to the Ram River Airstrip for some touch and go'sand maybe a weiner roast. Ken if you were closer I'd be glad to take you for a spin.
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