Optic Review Thread

Don_Parsons · #1 12-22-2017, 03:10 PM

The time has come for me to walk threw the end-less jungle of optic rifle scopes.

A lot has changed in optics, improvements in glass, solid click dials, side parallax that is showing up on most scopes now days, lots of MOA & MILL adjustments for long range shots,,, the variety of reticles have come along ways to.

Horus has really up the game in that category with the improved H-59 and Tremor 3.
Even the simple Tree reticles have been improved on with wider ranging bars so us shooters don't end up in guess-ti-matt lands if the cross winds are blowing fast.

This Web site is one that I'm following over the festive season so I can get up to speed on what's out there.

http://www.opticstalk.com/

Lots of info on this site to get things sorted, many of these folks have ways to test optics to make sure they are doing what the manufactors say they suppose to do.

I'm on a journey to find the "all rounded" optics to cover my bases from general plinking, long distance, iron silhouettes, and hopefully some PRS shooting sports in the near future.

The F Class shooting optic is set, now it's time to improve on my main shooter rifle.

Hopefully I find some more real time test reviews along the way.

What ever manufactor I pick for my next optic will hopefully offer life time warranty,,, fast turn around time "if" things need sorting,,, hopefully not.

This thread benefits all of us that are on the same path,,, for those that are interested in the sharing of advancements in todays jungles of optics.

The Web link above has some awesome ways to check and confirm our rifle scopes are up to par,,, a person feels pretty good knowing that these little areas are sorted out when we step up to the firing line.

Don

markg · #2 12-22-2017, 04:06 PM

If your thinking of shooting PRS then this might help. They post some great gear reviews

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2017/0...opes-pros-use/

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2014/1...-the-pros-use/

This article talks about optical performance

http://precisionrifleblog.com/2014/0...esults-part-1/

For what its worth I shoot a Vortex Razor HD Gen ll and I am very happy with it. I think that when it comes to alpha glass this one offers the best value.

Pm me if you want to talk about things further and Ill be happy to talk your ear off about optics.

Don_Parsons · #3 12-22-2017, 07:31 PM

^^^ Thanks Mark, I can see my self in the Vortex Razor line up. In the research phase.

The old saying of cry once at the initial cost, Grin from ear to ear knowing that I have it sorted once and for all.

My all round dream optic is 2 to 2.5 power in the low.
18 or 25 ish at the top, or higher.
FFP (Fist Focal Plane).
MILL reticle in the T form,,, or Horus.
Side mount parallax is a must.
Clear glass.
Wide field of view, or the best I can get.
Life time warranty.
Solid, I mean solid firm clicks in dial up mode.
And the fast repair turn around "if" needed.

Vortex and a few other manufacturers offers this.
I've done ok Harvesting over the years with regular 3 to what ever power, but this year caught me off guard,,, not going to try that again.

The SFP (Second Focal Plane) scope fouled me with a complete miss.
I spotted a nice Elk,,, zoomed into 12 power to count the points,,, 4x5.
Range was 435 meters broad side.

I practiced the bullet drop compensation using 3 power. 2nd BDC dot for this yardage.
Placed to dot on the Elk, and lunch one down range.

As soon as I touched it off I knew it was a miss right off the bat.
I seen the bullet hit the dirt 200 meters before the Elk.
After thought kicked in.

Being that I cranked the optic to 12 power meant I needed to use range mill dot 4 1/2. LOL.

Earlier this summer I was thinking something like this was going to happen with this SFP reticle,,, lesson learned,,, very glad it was a total miss.

The other reason for a all round optic is target long range shooting.
I did ok with this 3-12 this year, but two things are missing.

#1- Checking mirages.
#2- V ring.

Don't get me wrong,,, at certain times I can see things pretty good,,, but,,, when light conditions are not favorable, things get challenging.

What can I say.

My custom Rifle & Sightron optic was ready to rock, what a dream to step onto the shooting line with a rifle & scope that offeres clarity over my Harvesting rig.

Some of us that use so / so optics get a reminder of this when we see what real glass looks like, I know I got my reminder that day.

Purhaps my eyes changed this year, I don't know, the field of view & clarity is now important
Every little detail shows up that wasn't there before. It's like looking into a whole new world.
Deffinatly a eye opener.

What ever it is, it's a good thing.

Sorry for the long post, but its worth sharing the all of one person's take that allows others the opertunity to find what they might be looking for.

Don

PS: The regular cross hair scopes have done me well over the years, but I don't want to get left behind with out today's improvements & advancements in technology.
Innovations drive ideas forward, purhaps I fit this category. I won't know this till I get there.

Don_Parsons · #4 12-22-2017, 09:49 PM

Here's the free optic Christmas present

Dancing cross hairs "PARALLAX" is how I look at it.

https://www.longrangehunting.com/art...parallax.1175/.

I just finished the fine tuning and the cross hairs dont move. Once it's set,,, its set till our eyes change with age. Some folks already know this from long ago. I offer it as a refresher.

I thought it was kind of a Hog puck thing, how would it be possible to move the cross hairs in a tube with glass on both ends.

I planted the rifle solid onto a target and started moving my eye in different directions. Nothing was happening, so I started adjusting the parallax " manipulating" the adjustment till I got the cross hairs moving.

Wholly crap, this is real. Just by having the parallax out of adjustment I was able to move the cross hairs right off the 200 Meter target.

So I double checked the crazy 8 "blue sky focus," placed a ink spot on the "rear optic lens housing" where the wires are the clearest for my vision.

Got back onto target to confirm clarity.
It was not the clearest, so I fine tuned parallax so the cross hairs stayed locked onto the Bulls eye of target, then fine tuned the rear lens housing "just a fraction" to regain clarity.

The comfortation test at 100, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 600 meters are all clear,,, the other distances will follow on the next outing.

Who da thunk that a little bit of incorrect parallax adjustment would make a difference,,, guess I just got schooled.

Don

propliner · #5 12-22-2017, 11:38 PM

I'd sure like another March scope. The glass is unbeatable, the zoom spreads are immense (I have a 2.5-25x), the turrets are fantastic and they come in sizes that won't overwhelm your rifle. The reticle choices are really interesting. March scopes hold several bench-rest records.

The problem with a March is dealer availability, warranty and cough, cough, price. Of course, if price were no object, I'd buy another Tangent Theta first.

Don_Parsons · #6 12-23-2017, 08:16 AM

That's the second brand of optic I haven't heard of this week.

Athlon and March, I guess we only hear about the regular normal brands here in our Ameraicas.

Leopard, Bushnell, Burris, Vortex, Nightforce, along with a hand full of others.

It seems that both sides of the pond and our nabour to the south feed our needs.

It's quite a jungle to navigate now days, I'm "guessing" that the well established companies will try to hold in there threw some tuff times.

Just an example:
The newer start ups are going to struggle, it wasn't that long ago when Vortex fired up back in 2004,,, who would of guessed that their sales would of took off like they did.
Leopold was at the top of the game back then, but they didn't jump head first into the tactical department with large bulky turrets or side Parallax dials,,, not like a few other companies.
Purhaps their main stream sales were directed to the "average hunter and shooter,,, hey,,, don't get me wrong,,, I was and still am that "average dude."

Hard to imagine that today's simple duplex reticles with soft mushy turrets pulled off some incredible shooting records over the years,,, and they can still accomplish this in the simple format.

The advancements of this new generation of optics has its own challanges,,, but most are positives from what I can gather.

Well thought out tactical reticles to help the shooter get onto target faster, better design wires that allow the user to view the target easier in the broad ranges of different magnifications in the FFP,,, purhaps this might be why I ended up in the SFP world as it allowed me view the targets with the same size wires in the reticle no matter what power I was on. The down side to this is ranging.

FFP is constant all the time,,, part of the puzzle to this is the larger cross hairs when zoomed in,,, so the new generation is smaller wires that have better illumination features.

Another trick "I'm guessing" is that the reticle come with different size wires.

A FFP reticle from a 3-9 power optic might not work that well in a 8-36 FFP optic scope. By the time the you'ser cranks it to 36 power or beyond the only thing a person would see is a huge chunk of wire cross hairs.

Now thinking about, I'm wondering if the reticles aren't made up with etched glass with the lines in corporate into them now days.

I'm totally new to what is going on in the optic stuff, I don't really need to know all of it, but there are parts of it that Fascinate my interests.

The only thing I'm really after is getting onto to target fast, having a system I can use, enough side to side deviations in the Wind along with bullet drop compensation.

Not to complexed, but just enough. Kind of the 50/50.

My friend that I meet at our range brought up a Intersting point.
He was in a shoot with strong winds and distance. His option was use the reticle or fast track dial.
In the heat of the moment / much like Harvesting,,, we the shooters have to make this call.

He decided to go with the reticle,,, but the winds picked up putting him into guess-ti-mat land. Things are happening now,,, your banging way and the game plan changes.

This is where proven experience comes in,,, he let his guard down for a few seconds,,, but after thought kicked in as he dialed in the optic to compensate for this.

He was able to hold his own in that particular shooting challange of the 10 or more that day.
Had his reticle had enough hash marks he would scored much higher, and probably would of won the match that day.

I had a chance to see threw his optic this summer,,, not to complexed, yet not bland either,,, just enough for his shooting skills,,, I can see how this all plays out.

"If", if the reticle he has right now had a few more hash marks right to left,,, his bases would be covered.
That way he would get to continue with out to much clutter and reap the rewards of his fast track shooting skills.

I'm glad he shared this with me as I share with all.

All of us have a certain level of OCD, it really depends on how we work with the skill sets we have.

The ultimate optic reticle is the 1 we use to its fullest advantage, and that allows us to reap the rewards of its features.

Makes sense to me

Don

markg · #7 12-23-2017, 08:50 AM

This is an amazing g new long distance scope. They have a different marketing. Model that is allowing them to offer a high level of quality at a lower than normal price. Check out the two links

https://youtu.be/FD05rT3So7s

The second link is the companies web site. It will give the details. The first link shows the scope in actio

http://www.revicoptics.com/

Don_Parsons · #8 12-23-2017, 11:16 AM

^^^ Thanks Mark, I'll definitely review the links.

Today I'm putting together the long board.

6' long with a tape measure on it,,, then high-light every 5" spot so I can count off the numbers of elevation faster in the dial up and down.

The author didn't mention about doing this from left to right, but this will be the plan for me since its just the matter of flipping the measuring board side-ways.
That way I can check if this dail is in spec

At least I'll find out if my frugal Nikon BDC is tracking like to manufactor said it would.
I have a seeking suspicion that it won't pass, but I won't know this till I run it threw its paces.

PS: Just a reminder to all,,, if your optic scope is zeroed at 100 yards / meters,,, count the clicks down to the bottom,,, that way if you forget where the zero 100 mark is,,, just dial down and count back up to where it is suppose to be.
Might be wise to use a screw driver to scratch this into the rifle stock so you remember how much to dial in. LOL.

Just kidding... Easier to write it down in our data entry book.

Here's the link on how to confirm that our optics are doing what they are supposed to be doing,,, and it takes away all dought of not knowing if our optics are in proper working order.

http://www.opticstalk.com/how-to-opt...opic41811.html

Don,,, oh,,, make sure we pay attention "if" the dials have the mushy feeling when dialing them. I'm not a fan of non hard click dials. Crisp click is what I prefer

qwert · #9 12-23-2017, 04:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markg

This is an amazing g new long distance scope. They have a different marketing. Model that is allowing them to offer a high level of quality at a lower than normal price. Check out the two links

https://youtu.be/FD05rT3So7s

The second link is the companies web site. It will give the details. The first link shows the scope in actio

http://www.revicoptics.com/

VERY interesting business plan,

I was also very interested in the previous activities of the Company and its principals.

http://www.revicoptics.com/research/...-supply-chain/
"Genesis

The Revic team has extensive experience in sourcing, repairing, designing, and even manufacturing sport optics. In 2006, Revic CEO Aaron Davidson started the optics brand Huskemaw to showcase his ideas to bring simple but effective long range shooting solutions to the masses. He was fortunate to connect with an excellent OEM supplier in Japan. The product was an off the shelf design with a few modifications to the turret to allow installation of a custom laser marked turret. It was a good start, but it needed a little more engineering and an in-house quality management process to be great. After moving on from that first attempt, he partnered with the best USA based laser technology company available and developed the Gseven BR2 ballistic rangefinder. This time the engineering was excellent and with the Denver, Colorado-based manufacturing, the quality management shifted to our OEM manufacturer. The trade off for USA manufacturing was high costs.

Our VP of Operations is a third generation optics specialist who has spent his entire career developing, sourcing and manufacturing sighting systems and components for military and civilian applications. Most recently, he worked with a German riflescope partner to win the USMC’s Scout Sniper Day Scope contract that transformed his family’s company, Premier Reticles, from a component and services company to a full-blown manufacturer. This metamorphosis led to the birth of the Premier Heritage Tactical series that was designed from scratch, then built and qualified in Winchester, VA from parts sourced worldwide. The performance and features were exceptional, but the cost was high and margins were tight."

IIRC, the assets and designs of Premier Reticles were purchased by Armament Technology Inc. (Halifax, NS) and form the basis for their superb Tengent Theta rifle scopes.

The Revic scope has a ballistic calculator but not range finder.
I suspect that the weight of the Revic scope may be problematic for class competition.
I submit that a ballistic calculator is better mated with a range finder (Leica -B series CRF & Geovid binos) or a weather station (Kestrel 4500 or 5700with AB).

Good Luck, YMMV.

Don_Parsons · #10 12-23-2017, 06:25 PM

WOW, that's crazy stuff that Revic has going on,,, way past my skill level with electronics.

I fear optics with this stuff,,, mostly due to the problem of not having a power source when I'm in the bush. But something like that has its place I'm sure.

The plan for me is manual mode, that way I get the chance to practic my dialing skills. LOL.

FFP reticle with hash marks, then back-up dial mode when needed.

Don.

Salavee · #11 12-23-2017, 09:33 PM

Be sure to check out Sightron's SIII offerings.

Don_Parsons · #12 12-24-2017, 01:42 PM

^^^ X's 2

I'm already on board with Sightron. It seems like super clear glass on my SIII SS 6-24x50 thin wire dot.

Of course I won't know this till I run it threw the colour charts this year.

I built a dial up & down / vertical measuring stick in MOA for a starter project yesterday,,, now I'm building two precision boards in MOA & MILL.

My long time shooting friend is game for this testing and data entry stuff.

We both have an endless collection of optics to start with, then we will start on the newer optics after that.
Of course the reviews and data entry will be spanned out over a year.

That will allow us to run these optics threw the mill.

Different lighting conditions, weather, 25' to beyond, and hidden features to find out how clarity stands up.
This is where the colour charts come in.

The main idea of getting this test field started was for tracking only, that way we would know if these optics are doing what they are suppose to be doing,,, but other ideas fit into the tests like the features offered on each optic and clarity.

I never thought I'd ever put a optic scope threw the paces, but like my friend mentioned...
"We can run with what we have,,, or test it our selve to see if they are performing the way they are suppose to."

Of course, this is for those of us that choose to know if our optics are up to speed.

The first optic test run yesterday was a learning curve, just happens to be that I got schooled.

It's not that hard to build a out-door test sight on our farm. Lucky thing is that we have all the services needed for a under taking like this on top of the hill.

More to follow on this unlimited adventure of endless.

Don

qwert · #13 12-24-2017, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Don_Parsons

snip
I built a dial up & down / vertical measuring stick in MOA for a starter project yesterday,,, now I'm building two precision boards in MOA & MILL.

My long time shooting friend is game for this testing and data entry stuff.

We both have an endless collection of optics to start with, then we will start on the newer optics after that.
Of course the reviews and data entry will be spanned out over a year.

That will allow us to run these optics threw the mill.

Different lighting conditions, weather, 25' to beyond, and hidden features to find out how clarity stands up.
This is where the colour charts come in.

The main idea of getting this test field started was for tracking only, that way we would know if these optics are doing what they are suppose to be doing,,, but other ideas fit into the tests like the features offered on each optic and clarity.

I never thought I'd ever put a optic scope threw the paces, but like my friend mentioned...
"We can run with what we have,,, or test it our selve to see if they are performing the way they are suppose to."

Of course, this is for those of us that choose know if our optics are up to speed.

The first optic test run yesterday was a learning curve, just happens to be that I got schooled.

It's not that hard to build a out-door test sight on our farm. Lucky thing is that we have all the services needed for a under taking like this on top of the hill.

More to follow on this unlimited adventure of endless.

Don

In addition to properly calibrated target boards,
One of the problems I have found is holding the scope solidly enough to perform accurate testing.
Various BR rests and sand bags or Lead-Sleds can work, but are not really solid,
and require that the scope be mounted on a rifle, (which can be problematic in some situations).
The easiest and most portable would be mounting a P-rail to a heavy photo tripod, but this is not as solid as I would prefer.

I did a preliminary design of a mount for 4 scopes that could also be used for multiple scope comparison and training.
I have lots of misc. steel plate, and can fabricate a welded mount that can be clamped to any solid table, but light enough to move easily.
I have several non-MilSpec P-rails that are unacceptable for actual rifle use, but would be fine for this.

I propose to mount –
- 4x 6” P-rails @ ~6” OC, to permit 4 scopes mounted in ~18” total width,
- (may be slightly angled if/as required for face clearance with multiple scopes mounted),
- ~8” high to top of P-rail, (= ~ 10” scope tube center),

- flat base for use prone, or clamped to a table for seated, (can be raised with 2x6 if needed).
- total mount weight with ¼” plate = ~ 50 lbs.
- total mount weight with 1/8” plate = ~ 25 lbs.
(I doubt I have much 3/16” plate and suspect that 1/8” plate may flex or vibrate slightly.)

Helpful suggestions appreciated.

Good Luck, YMMV.

Don_Parsons · #14 12-24-2017, 08:22 PM

That's awesome qwert

Yes to buckling down the optics is key.
As I mentioned in the above post, I did ok on the first attempt with a Henery Remple F Class bypod, sand bags on heavy steel table.

It kind of worked, but I see advantages of using my friends scope vice, he built a few of them in his day.
They lock onto the bench firm with no movement.

Of course they are only single mounting vices,,, I like the idea of having more then one on the go at one time. Your idea is wize.

The permanent solid full time benches are deffinatly going in on our feed lot hill. Lots of features to view from up there. Tree & bush lines, Creek beds and as far as the eyes can see, and plenty of structures in between.

Lucky, dam lucky indeed.

If we are going to build it, it will be a full time set up.
Unforchanet there is no shooting range with this set-up. We shut it down in 1987/88.
Nothing major since we have a range at Rocky Mountain House.

Thank for the awesome ideas qwert. It is much appreciated to the fullest.

Don

ctd · #15 12-24-2017, 08:30 PM

First scope was a Bushnell Sportview 3X9, it was mounted on a Remington 710 7REM MAG rifle and did not last past 50 rounds fired. The scope internals stripped out and would not adjust.

Next was a Elite Bushnell 3x9x40 with the Fire Fly reticle. This scope is mounted on the 710 rifle now. It fell out of my quad boot at 80km/hr on a gravel road. It has has lots of scratches on the lenses and a few scratches on the finish but it still holds zero. After falling off the quad it had to be re sighted in.

Next was Burris Fullfield E1 3-9x40 Scope it was on my Tikka is now mounted on a friends rifle as his scope packed it in. It works flawless to this day.

Vortex Viper HS LR 4-16x50 with XLR-1 MOA Reticle. First scope would not hold a zero after a few months and a couple hundred rounds. Over the counter exchange for a new one.
Second scope was same model and it worked find until the erector ring back off. This scope was mounted on a Tikka 30-06.
What I liked about the scope initially was the smoothness of the target knobs, clarity of the glass, fit and function, eye relief.
What I did not like about this scope is that it would not hold zero after a few hundred rounds. Like the first one. Warranty was awesome but trust in reliability was not there.

Newest scope is a Burris XTRII 5-25. So far I have beat the crap out of it, broke the flip caps off, scratched the finish off few spots.
What i like, clarity, target knobs are smooth and have good feeling when adjusting. Eye relief is decent. it sill works after a full hunting season.

What I don't like, the price I paid $1300, the finish is easy to scratch off. the rings are expensive.

Nova316 · #16 12-24-2017, 11:45 PM

Have you had a chance to look at the Athlon Cronus? Local dealer in Calgary with Red star targets.

I have two of them for my match rifle and hunting rifle, it checks off all your boxes from 4.5-27x, illuminated, awesome reticle crystal clear glass, and life time warranty.
I was able to spot 6.5mm holes in cardboard at 500m easily.

Robert posted a good review on the Cronus on Cgn. Definitely consider it for the cost it can't be beat.

Don_Parsons · #17 12-26-2017, 06:19 PM

Thanks Nova, I'm sure we will get to test run some of them this summer. Athlon along with a few others will be the fore-front of tests and reviews.
One might expect about a year per optic, this is no easy task since all of us have regular full time jobs and hobbies. But we all like to shoot in our own sports.

The plan after the holidays is to gather up what we have, then add to it over the year.

The first main area will be a 100 meter set up, then we will add distance to this with the help from our farm nabours.
http://precisionrifleblog.com/2014/0...esults-part-1/
At least we will learn something on this journey.

This is no small under taking.

We are archery folks, the set-up will become a live range for that practic. No live firearm ammo since we have cattle operations.
http://www.lancasterarchery.com/bow-...pe-lenses.html

In the sport of good times no matter what category it is.

Don

gitrdun · #18 12-26-2017, 06:24 PM

purgatory.sv · #19 12-26-2017, 11:29 PM

Immunity.

Lucky you.

This thread has information.

Don_Parsons · #20 12-27-2017, 06:51 AM

This is one of the links attached to the "above "PRS" link as above.

It puts a whole new aspect of resolution and contrast.

http://opticsthoughts.com/?page_id=122

Getting schooled is good.

Funny thing is that this idea came up at our range this summer.
One of the members is a optic photography persons, he talked about the camera lens filters in general that can adapt onto optic scopes.

This conversation was about dealing with clarity and heat waves from hot rifle barrels and the Mirage down range.
Of course this has it benefits and disadvantages.
Won't know till we look into this

Don

SlightlyDistracting · #21 12-27-2017, 07:37 AM

Mirage can be useful at the target

Don_Parsons · #22 12-27-2017, 11:12 AM

^^^ X's 2

Don

Don_Parsons · #23 12-27-2017, 02:18 PM

I like how "Weby Shops / Guns & Ammo" stated this in their "opinion" only by the author of the article...

"""Then there are the different failure modes: if your scope is going to fail, you want it to fail catastrophically, so that you know right away something went wrong. The worst kind of failure is the gradual decline in precision and repeatability, since it is often difficult to diagnose until it is too late. Bottom line is that if you want to avoid surprises, check your scopes periodically for precision and repeatability of adjustments.

Lastly, there is a case of unreasonable expectations (yet again). I expect every scope I have to be durable. If it does not hold zero, it is a paper weight, not a scope. However, if it is a truly inexpensive piece, I do not have very high expectations on repeatability, so I do not mess with the adjustments too much. The more I pay for the scope, the more I expect from it. By the time we get to mid-price scopes ($500 to $1000), I do not expect any nasty surprises. For the truly high end stuff, I expect everything to be flawless, since I have just paid twice more money for 10% more performance. The rest of that extra price tag goes into QC."""

I'm guessing most of us would think this, man oh man this is one incredible article from the Optics Thoughts Web page.

Don

markg · #24 12-27-2017, 02:57 PM

I think you might find this review helpful.

https://rifletalk.org/2017/03/04/com...-pmii-5-25x56/