Finding the Accurate Load

[Don_Parsons]

Here's a little trick at finding the accurate load for a given powder, bullet, primer, and case for a particular rifle.

The fastest way to the water line let's say.

When working up a load for small cases I do it by 0.5 of a grain,,, larger cases go by 6%.between the loads.

Example using the 308 winchester starting at the middle to max where a person can just start to feel the sticky bolt handle lift. ***Caution Since some Rifles Should not be Loaded to Max***

40
40.5
41
41.5
42
42.5
43
43.5
44
44.5
45
45.5
46 and so on till I feel a sticky bolt handle on ejection.

I'm trying to find the highest "Node," and one just bellow it, and it allows the barrel to set into the fowl mode for consistany before attempting long range shooting.
Normally about 100 shoots. If it doesn't look good down range, then I'll do another 100 rounds on top of that.

Up goes the 3 tall targets, and I sight in to either side of the Bulls-eye,,, that way I can see the water line better.
300 yards is not bad, 600 is better,,, and 700 out to 1000 yards shows the spacings better.
It is wize to do this with zero wind, the best of the best table and rest as well as a rifle that can pull off some accurate shoots. More so for target rifles,,, there are hunting that fit this category to.

So I load 3 cartrages the same volume of powder,,, and Mark them with the same colour,,, if I run out of colours I repeat use them all over again.

Keep in mind that we remember what grain of powder we start with and go to the next highest charge after that as we climb the ladder.

2 things are going to show up on paper.

The 1st shot to 2nd and 3rd might be tight as the 4th and 5th start to rise up the paper,,, maybe the 7th & 8th tighten up as the 9th and 10th begin to spread.

Or the spread could start off the get go then tighten up with another spread as it startes to tighten up when we notice the bolt handle is starting to get sticky,,, if this happens, then its wize to go to the Node where it seen its best grouping.

A chronograph is handy as it let's us know what ft-per second the particular loaded cartrages are producing,,, that way if we change powder lots, primers bullets or cases at a later date we have a place to start if we need to work the ladder since 1 or more of the components have changed.

So.

The 40gr first as I shot 1 into each target.
40.5 doing the same thing.
41gr and so on.

All 3 target groups should look the same for lateral as I'm trying to find the tight water line,,, I'm not even thinking about right to left.
The spread of charges that show signs on the paper are the ones where the barrel is at its less vibration / or the closet to the Node we are looking for.

There could be 5 or 7 Nodes per rifle,,, finding the ones closest to max is handy in load development,,, the lower Nodes are good for plinking as well as the gals and youngers as it limits the recoil on them.

Any-who,,, let's say we find close groupings between 41.5gr to 42.5 before the bullets start to rise,,, this is the place we might want to start fine tuning.
0.2gr between 41.5, then 41.7, next is 41.9 and so on up past the 42.5gr when things started to spread.

The selected case, primer, powder, and bullets you are using will show good signs of being accurate so long as the rifle, shooter, table and rest are up to the task.

Like I mentioned in the above,,, don't try this on a Windy day, and us the shooters have to be at our best,,, along with a solid table and rest...

We will know if the rifle is up for this when we get started on making the ladder on paper,,, the further the target the more we can see the ladder in action.

So either something is not working,,, us, the rifle, the shooting platform or the mix of the cartrage is not in sink.
If this is the case, then something is going to need addressing. "If one chooses to that is."
If it's a Harvesting rifle and 2 or 3 MOA is good for 100 to 160 yards then your pretty much ready to go.

If things are working out and we find that 42.1gr's is the sweet spot,,, now it's time to play with seating depth...
Just off the lands or a ways back from them.

I like to start with 0.20th thousands of lands when starting the ladder.
So I'll do 3 cartrages at 0.20, then 0.15 next 0.10 and 0.5th thousand,,,
I never put a bullet on the lands for 2 reasons.

First is that as the barrel heats up it grows. At 0.10 thou the chamber when hot will meet up with the Octave of the bullet.

Second is that if a person is using this rifle and cartrage for Harvesting game,,, its kinda crappy to jam one into the chamber then not take the shot.
Yank back on the bolt and find out the case came back,,, but the bullet is now stuck in the throat or rifling.

The other seating depths get seated in further,,, 0.25, then 0.30 and so on to 0.40 thou.
I call this the jump-slam as some rifles like it, and other don't.
Even 0.20 thou off the lands is a jump.

There will be 7 targets down range for the seating depth thing as I'm looking for the best group.
Again,,, water line up and down only.

When I do this test I use 2 different powders yet the cases, primers, bullets remain the same.

I have learned a few things this year of the many things yet to learn,,, try different things, either the rifle shoots good fowled up or better when clean.

Shoot lots and bring family and friends into this,,, and focus on 1 thing at a time on a shoot,,, kinda like archery as we brake each step of our shooting format into separate groups.

Once we have practised each step multiple times it all comes together.

This happens with our shooting format,,, and hopefully our rifles and ammo as well.

My claim to fame is just trying different things, hopefully it produces better accuracy down range. LOL

PS: One thing about the ladder test is it allows the rifles to seat in,,, copper fowling is ok in my books since I hate clean bores. Ha

Don

[elkhunter11]

First is that as the barrel heats up it grows. At 0.10 thou the chamber when hot will meet up with the Octave of the bullet.

Firstly, what is the "Octave"? Secondly as the barrel heats up, the chamber will grow in length, it won't become shorter.

[Don_Parsons]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Firstly, what is the "Octave"? Secondly as the barrel heats up, the chamber will grow in length, it won't become shorter.

Yes, the barrel grows as it heats up, 2 fellows at the range this year seated their bullets just off the lands by 0.005 thou as the barrels heated up the bullets ended up touching the lands,,, they went to eject the bullets and they were stuck solid.

Nothing major as they went home and tapped them out with their cleaning rods.

My bad, ,, Ogive. I think this is the proper term of thousands 0.001 could be off by a decimal point

Don

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Don_Parsons

Yes, the barrel grows as it heats up, 2 fellows at the range this year seated their bullets just off the lands by 0.5 thou as the barrels heated up the bullets ended up touching the lands,,, they went to eject the bullets and they were stuck solid.

Nothing major as they went home and tapped them out with their cleaning rods.

My bad, ,, Ogive.

Don

The chamber grows in length and in diameter as it heats up. The only explanation is that the loaded rounds were left in the barrel long enough for the cartridge case to expand more than the chamber due to the higher co efficient of thermal expansion of brass vs steel. Why would they leave loaded rounds in the barrel for that long, in multiple rifles, and not fire them? Something just doesn't add up.

[Don_Parsons]

I'm not sure why either. They could of chambered them mistakenly as they were spotting there hits on paper down range.

Once they realized that their bullets were off target he ejected the round as it was stuck in the rifling pretty tight.

His friend tried tapping it out, but like you mentioned,,, the barrel cooled off and the bullet was then stuck.

I've been lucky seating 0.020 off the lands so I've stayed with this for the harvest season,,, I'll team up with another fellow this winter to play with the seating depth stuff.

The ladder test was sure easy to do thanks to the folks at the range for helping me get that part sorted. LOL.

[Don_Parsons]

I can have a good laugh now looking back at my first ladder tests that went south.

Using 1 target wasn't working for me since I was shooting 5 shoots of one grain of powder, then .5gr up for the next volly.

Doing this at close range made it hard to see the ladder affect, it wasn't till one of the old timers took my target down to the 300m mark that it started happening.

The best thing that happened a few weeks after that was running into a fellow member at our range that took this test to its next level.

We went down range and hung up targets at the 600M mark, then returned to our normal shooting stuff letting those target wait for the calm of the evening.

Both of us probably shoot 100+ rounds that day,,, then he said its time.

The flags were hang down and we were in the game.
We both took our time shooting our ladders.

His ladder was much tighter than mine since he was shooting a 7mm Rum.

His over all spread was close on his first 3 different 6% powder increases,,, then it started to spread out.

Mine was spread out at first, then started tightening up,,, my powder charges started at the bottom suggested loads from the book, so I had a lot of cartrages to shoot from 46.5 to 57.5 grains in .5gr increments.

Good thing we did the 3 tall targets and 1 bullet per change on each of them.
Then 47gr rounds, 47.5 and so on.

The only reason we knew we were close was that he could see sand kicking up behind the back stop.
I didn't even think I was hitting the paper little lone the back stop.

Any ways. I got lucky and managed to hit all 3 targets and the pattern was spot on.
This was a first for me.
My friend was dead eye on his 3 targets since he had done this a few times over the years.

The best ladder tests he has done is at the 700 to 1000 mark.
This is where the spread really stands out.

So latter this summer I went out west to shoot the 1 km.
He was right.
A good spread of 9" is really a tight group at that distance,,, 18" gap between the charges as things would open up... Id slowly incress the charges .5 of a grain till the rifle barrel would get to its next Node.

Just happen to get lucky as I found a primer, case, powder charge and bullet that all seem to work together.

Had it not, then I would of had to go back to the drawing board.

I knew my rifle was up to the task, I wasn't 100% sure if I was, and the only track record of the loads that went out west were the ones that did the 600M test.

Lucky for sure.

It won't be long before I get my new long range rifle going this winter. It to will see the ladder test followed by the box and run.

Like I said in my above post,,, I'm all new to this load development stuff since it is different then the lazy harvest loads from years ago.

I only hope that I see consistency in the years to come.

Don

[260 Rem]

Don’t know if my experience with load development has much value to anybody else, but here is what I have come to believe.
First, unless one is really good at “measuring” and has good instruments, avoid flirting with seating at the lands. Generally, seating .010” jump or .010 jamb will put you you cleanly “out” or “in”. (Having one round a little off, and the next one a little in can result in unpredicable pressure variations...best to be firmly “out” or firmly “in”.)
Second, there is a much better chance of misleading information comming from 3 shot groups than from those containing 5 shots.

[kostianych]

he meant "Ogive".....


holly crab......."0.5 thou".....what? bullet stuck because of 0.0005???????

[Don_Parsons]

The first one as a 223 in rapped fire, the other was a 308.

I have never seen it in all my years, not sure if the powder grew from the time they loaded them our what happened.

Both fellows were running compressed loads, I heard it is possible over time that the power could push the bullets forward.

[Don_Parsons]

If I had Photobucket I'd load the pictures of the ladders from my 30/06, I found a nice load using H-4350 @ 55.3gr shooting 178gr ELD-X bullets.

This rifle likes it, but its not friendly in my brothers rifle.

[260 Rem]

This is what some "pre-bad" stuff on primers can look like.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[HW223]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

This is what some "pre-bad" stuff on primers can look like.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

That is exactly what you don’t want to see , the primer is still round at the outer diameter , but is cratering , this is not a good situation and should be corrected , when it’s right the primer will “ flow “ into the outer radius with and indent in the middle from the pin and zero flow at the pin ,

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by HW223

That is exactly what you don’t want to see , the primer is still round at the outer diameter , but is cratering , this is not a good situation and should be corrected , when it’s right the primer will “ flow “ into the outer radius with and indent in the middle from the pin and zero flow at the pin ,

The primer flow shown is indicative of an oversized firing pin hole and not indicative of high pressures as you have explained and can be fixed by bushing the hole or replacing the bolt with a custom one. Remingtons are noted for this but the flow is still caused by pressure as that problem will also disappear as pressures drop to Saami pressures just as PRE does.

The primer flow I am measuring is into the firing pin hole at the center of the primer and usually happens afterflow into the outer radius or "flattening". It can be caused by a weak firing pin spring but is most likely caused by the pressure getting to the point that the firing pin is pushed back as pressure builds. I know that my 20 caliber rifles do not have this problem as it does not show up until pressures get well above Saaami Pressures for the 222/223 cases and PRE reaches near max. My 20-223 EXTREME has allowed me to compare results with those on Factory 223 ammunition and they are the same. In all 20 cal rifles that I have done this with, including CZ, Remington and Sako, this flow, would get to about 0.008" before Rem 7 1/2 primers pierce and occasionally they blow as the primer pocket stretches by 0.007" which takes a whole lot of pressure. This will usually happen without the bolt handle seizing with these cartridges although it may get" clicky". I have found this true in other cartridges as well and have only had a problem due to intentionally pushing to the limit to try and find the Max chamber dimension at the datum, in these wildcats, as my measurements keep me in the "safe zone" which is much before the bolt gets stiff .

[260 Rem]

Iclund - no reason to think the firing pin hole has opened up on this BAT action. I am going to change brass and check over a chrony.

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

Iclund - no reason to think the firing pin hole has opened up on this BAT action. I am going to change brass and check over a chrony.

Looking more closely at the picture it could be possible that the pressure, on the primer, was not enough to push it back against the bolt face. This would allow the primer to flow around the firing pin by roughly as much as the primer was seated into the pocket. You could check this by measuring the primers seating depth near the rounded outside diameter with your calipers. Where it has flowed out would likely be 0.000" seat depth. Normally primers seat 0.005" into a properly uniformed primer pocket.

I don't think changing brass will help unless the primer pockets are larger which may allow primers to move back more freely. The most likely cause of this is that the Batt action has a stronger firing pin than necessary for the pressure you are running. This does not mean that the pressures are not fairly high as low pressures are usually indicated by a cratered primer. Measuring the 0.200" base datum with a micrometer, looking for the largest reading, on a new case and comparing it to a fired one may give you an indication of low pressure but the chronograph reading against a known pressure load would be the best.

Let us know how what you find.

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by lclund1946

The primer flow shown is indicative of an oversized firing pin hole and not indicative of high pressures as you have explained and can be fixed by bushing the hole or replacing the bolt with a custom one. Remingtons are noted for this but the flow is still caused by pressure as that problem will also disappear as pressures drop to Saami pressures just as PRE does.

The primer flow I am measuring is into the firing pin hole at the center of the primer and usually happens afterflow into the outer radius or "flattening". It can be caused by a weak firing pin spring but is most likely caused by the pressure getting to the point that the firing pin is pushed back as pressure builds. I know that my 20 caliber rifles do not have this problem as it does not show up until pressures get well above Saaami Pressures for the 222/223 cases and PRE reaches near max. My 20-223 EXTREME has allowed me to compare results with those on Factory 223 ammunition and they are the same. In all 20 cal rifles that I have done this with, including CZ, Remington and Sako, this flow, would get to about 0.008" before Rem 7 1/2 primers pierce and occasionally they blow as the primer pocket stretches by 0.007" which takes a whole lot of pressure. This will usually happen without the bolt handle seizing with these cartridges although it may get" clicky". I have found this true in other cartridges as well and have only had a problem due to intentionally pushing to the limit to try and find the Max chamber dimension at the datum, in these wildcats, as my measurements keep me in the "safe zone" which is much before the bolt gets stiff .

HW223: Of course you are right in that my results are for the scenarios that I have posted and vary from cartridge to cartridge and component to component. However the same principals apply unless you go to custom actions that have much closer tolerances and perhaps stronger firing pins. In that case the pressures will be higher before they show up on the primers and velocity spikes will likely be the most accurate way of staying in the "safe" zone followed by PRE. Brass does vary in how much it will resist PRE expansion and there is quite a difference in PRDiameter between new brass which has to be taken into consideration. Contrary to what most believe the larger base and thicker neck dimensions on 223/222 LapuaM brass does not make them resist pressures more than Lake City, Winchester, Hornady or even Remington or Norma for that matter. I know this as I have run the 55 Berger to over 3330+ fps, in both brass , with the same components (IMR 8208 & CCI 450 primers), and the Winchester brass will hold a primer while the Lapua will not. However this would not have happened if I had stuck to my pressure limits as indicated by primer flow as PRE was not reliable due to an oversize chamber at the base datum. I have since found the right combination using Varget that gets me safely to just over 3200 fps and targets show a potential "good load".

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by lclund1946

HW223: Of course you are right in that my results are for the scenarios that I have posted and vary from cartridge to cartridge and component to component. However the same principals apply unless you go to custom actions that have much closer tolerances and perhaps stronger firing pins. In that case the pressures will be higher before they show up on the primers and velocity spikes will likely be the most accurate way of staying in the "safe" zone followed by PRE. Brass does vary in how much it will resist PRE expansion and there is quite a difference in PRDiameter between new brass which has to be taken into consideration. Contrary to what most believe the larger base and thicker neck dimensions on 223/222 LapuaM brass does not make them resist pressures more than Lake City, Winchester, Hornady or even Remington or Norma for that matter. I know this as I have run the 55 Berger to over 3330+ fps, in both brass , with the same components (IMR 8208 & CCI 450 primers), and the Winchester brass will hold a primer while the Lapua will not. However this would not have happened if I had stuck to my pressure limits as indicated by primer flow as PRE was not reliable due to an oversize chamber at the base datum. I have since found the right combination using Varget that gets me safely to just over 3200 fps and targets show a potential "good load".

Here are some good examples of how I use primers, PRE and velocity to determine "Safe" pressures in my 20 EXTREME.
[IMG][/IMG]

On the left is my light gopher load with 21.4 gr of IMR 8208 that runs the 39 BK to 3500 fps. This is a very stable node where the PRE is 0.0005", leaving 0.001" chamber clearance at 0.001" and the Rem 7 1/2 primer is barely flattening against the bolt face with Zero primer. I estimate this to be less than 57,000 PSI.
This load shoots as good, or better in all rifles, as it did in my Kreiger 9" twist.
[IMG][/IMG]

Second from left was shot using the same components with the Max charge of 22.4 grains of IMR 8208, as shown on one of the charts posted above, and reaching 3645 fps in my new Benchmark barrel. This was a full case and in the center of a stable pressure node where the PRE was 0.001" leaving 0.005" chamber clearance. The primer is still rounded at the perimeter but is flattened against the bolt face and looks perfect but measuring primer flow of 0.0025" tells me that this is at my max safe load. This load shoots as good as the light gopher load and is shown on the left had target show below.

[IMG][/IMG]

Third from the right is the same except with Lapua Match brass that ran slightly faster velocity at 3656 fps in spite of having slightly more case capacity. Primer flow was the same at 0.0025" so max safe load was reached for this combination. This load shoots as well as it does above in Winchester and Lake City Brass and is shown on the targets below .

Fourth from the left was shot with the 55 Berger and 21.8 grains of Varget which was just under full in the Lapua Brass. A velocity of just over 3200 fps had been established as a good safe load running this load with a CCI 450 primer. The CCI BR4 primer showed a bit more flattening out toward the radius and primer flow of 0.003" with a velocity of 3220 is max with this combo.
Target shown on left with results of 39 BK in Lapua Brass which seems to get more fliers than Winchester and Lake City shown above:
[IMG][/IMG]

The one on the right is an example of an extremely over pressured CCI 450 primer in Winchester Brass. While the primer is flattened against the boltface the outer perimeter is still nicely rounded. However the firing pin has pushed back allowing the primer to flow, or protrude beyond the boltface by 0.008 - 0.0010". This indicates that the CCI 450 primer will withstand more pressure than the firing pin is designed to take or the brass is designed to take as the primer pockets were stretched to the limit. While the Winchester Brass would hold a soft seated primer the same load in Lapua brass did not . Both loads were on the verge of having blown primers at about 3310-3330 fps with 22.0 grains of 8208. Backing off the IMR 8208 to 21.4 grains gets safely to about 3200 fps with the 55 Berger.

[260 Rem]

Downright nasty for shooting groups today ... -15C so I cut right to the chase and shot a group with some 4X fired brass loaded to my accuracy sweet spot for other 6 Dashers. Voila' no cratering, no stiff bolt, nice rounded corners on the primer. Thanks to HW223 for suggesting it could be a brass issue, rather than over pressure.
He is right.
I would be interested to know theories why the cratering occurred with the 10X fired brass.
No chrony today...too cold.

.



Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

Downright nasty for shooting groups today ... -15C so I cut right to the chase and shot a group with some 4X fired brass loaded to my accuracy sweet spot for other 6 Dashers. Voila' no cratering, no stiff bolt, nice rounded corners on the primer. Thanks to HW223 for suggesting it could be a brass issue, rather than over pressure.
He is right.
I would be interested to know theories why the cratering occurred with the 10X fired brass.
No chrony today...too cold.

.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

Nothing wrong with that group especially considering the conditions. If you were running 2970, or less, with the Berger 95 and 4166 you are likely not running high pressures at all.

I too would like to figure out why you got that cratering as it was not indicative of high pressures. In order to be certain that it was just the different brass that led to todays results you would have had to fire one of each under todays conditions as the pressure could have been down.

It appears that in todays result that the primer was pushed back and flattened against a very true boltface with no indentation, like a Rem 700, that would allow a donut to form as it did on your first picture. In the picture with the calipers it appears that this donut is protruding past the base of the brass and flowing around the firing pin and not flattening on the boltface and flowing toward the outer diameter. If that is the case then the only way that could happen is if the brass was not completely head spaced between the boltface and shoulder. Did you FL size this brass or size it with a shoulder bump die?

[260 Rem]

FL sized. Yes, pressure should be down from “normal” Dasher pressures. Before “discovering” the consistency of the 95gr Classic Hunter, I was running the same volume of powder with 105 VLD’s. I will use a Dasher for deer this year (not this barrel as it is too heavy with a 0.67 MD.

[Don_Parsons]

Sure glad the thread got underway.

I just got schooled from one of our fellow brothers.

Deffinatly an eye opener coming up,,, full attention to """one idea""" when I see it done first hand.

Don't know what path it will take me on,,, but I'm pretty sure it's a wize proven route used by those around the globe.

Listening and learning is key.

Don

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by Don_Parsons

Sure glad the thread got underway.

I just got schooled from one of our fellow brothers.

Deffinatly an eye opener coming up,,, full attention to """one idea""" when I see it done first hand.

Don't know what path it will take me on,,, but I'm pretty sure it's a wize proven route used by those around the globe.

Listening and learning is key.

Don

Glad that you started this thread Don as there are are so many things to learn, in this hobby, that no one person will likely live long enough to learn it all by themself.

Listening and Learning is key but opening up ones mind to new ideas and letting go of some old ones and personal biases is even more important in my view. Also looking back on ideas that worked, like you did with the 30-06, can bring some of us back to reality as we tend to get carried away in our quest for perfection.

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

FL sized. Yes, pressure should be down from “normal” Dasher pressures. Before “discovering” the consistency of the 95gr Classic Hunter, I was running the same volume of powder with 105 VLD’s. I will use a Dasher for deer this year (not this barrel as it is too heavy with a 0.67 MD.

Should do the trick from what I see and the deer surly will not suffer if you do your part. As I suspected you are running a bit more HS than necessary unless the brass is getting work hardened and shoulders are springing back unevenly. You will get an accurate measurement of the excess, or uneven HS by measuring primer flow or protrusion as I have outlined earlier. As well the pressures you are running with this load are not enough to force the primers, and firing pin back enough to flatten normally as in your last picture. That primer likely looked like the first one before slamming into the bolt face. In any event you will not have any problem with this load and primers will look more normal should you decide to run a bit more powder to try and find a higher accuracy node. In that case you may be able to use primer protrusion, as I do, to determine where to stop before primers pierce but primer flattening may be a better indicator of pressure. However it would not appear that that is necessary or even desirable.

You would likely not see this in a non custom action as firing pin spring tension would be less as would be firing pin/ bolt tolerances. Keep your bolt and firing pin clean and lubricated with G 96 to keep it from getting gummy and you will have no problems.

[Jay Kyle]

Hmm! This thread really grew some legs! Well Don, nothing like drinking from the firehose. You can lost in a hurry in the minutia but take a step back and really get your head around what it takes to be consistent at distance.

A well know ballistician - Bryan Lytz - spoke to a concept called 'Weapons Employment Zone' essentially understanding which of the many variables in your weapons system are important to work on and which are less important.

Cal Zant - an avid engineer and shooter took the concept and did a thorough study on it. His article at Precision Rifle Blog brought to light that some of the sacred cows we hold dear turn out to not matter so much in the big scheme of things.

For example he found that tightening your groups from 0.8 MOA down to 0.3 MOA only improved your likelihood of hitting a 20" group at 1000 yards by 4%.

Do read both the summary and detail articles - they are an eye opener.

I know in my own experience from dropping lead at 2k he's bang on.

Jay
---------------
338 Edge
338-378 Weatherby

[markg]

Originally Posted by Jay Kyle

Hmm! This thread really grew some legs! Well Don, nothing like drinking from the firehose. You can lost in a hurry in the minutia but take a step back and really get your head around what it takes to be consistent at distance.

A well know ballistician - Bryan Lytz - spoke to a concept called 'Weapons Employment Zone' essentially understanding which of the many variables in your weapons system are important to work on and which are less important.

Cal Zant - an avid engineer and shooter took the concept and did a thorough study on it. His article at Precision Rifle Blog brought to light that some of the sacred cows we hold dear turn out to not matter so much in the big scheme of things.

For example he found that tightening your groups from 0.8 MOA down to 0.3 MOA only improved your likelihood of hitting a 20" group at 1000 yards by 4%.

Do read both the summary and detail articles - they are an eye opener.

I know in my own experience from dropping lead at 2k he's bang on.

Jay
---------------
338 Edge
338-378 Weatherby

I was looking for this article on thier site but couldnt find it. Thanks for sharing. There is some great stuff on this article.

[markg]

Looks like the 3 most important things are controlable; Cartridge, exact placement of the gong at a known distance, and using a kestrel to have an exact wind reading.

The one variable I am not sure how to exactly control is target distance. Do you guys use a construction tape to set out your exact distance from shooting position to target? Thats what I am thinking of doing. I dont think I can get a reading on my range finder out to 1000m and my range finder does not adjust for elevation changes.

Suggestions?

[260 Rem]

Iclund ... It is good to exchange ideas / experience and this forum is fortunate to have some experienced folks like yourself. What some might not know is that a couple of contributors in this thread do well in competition...one an F-class shooter, and another SBR (who just did very well at the Worlds in NZ).

[duceman]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

Iclund ... It is good to exchange ideas / experience and this forum is fortunate to have some experienced folks like yourself. What some might not know is that a couple of contributors in this thread do well in competition...one an F-class shooter, and another SBR (who just did very well at the Worlds in NZ).

good point 260, both of these are at the pinnacle of their disciplines, competed against the best in the world, and done extremely well.

[Don_Parsons]

Originally Posted by markg

Looks like the 3 most important things are controlable; Cartridge, exact placement of the gong at a known distance, and using a kestrel to have an exact wind reading.

The one variable I am not sure how to exactly control is target distance. Do you guys use a construction tape to set out your exact distance from shooting position to target? Thats what I am thinking of doing. I dont think I can get a reading on my range finder out to 1000m and my range finder does not adjust for elevation changes.

Suggestions?

I measure my distances in the West country for clay bank target shooting.
Sometimes I launch 3 shots down range at a flat smooth clay face, then adjust from there to get onto the borders.

We went out West just before the season opened to free sight our distances.

Both of us can range free eye to 400m,s give or take, but that isn't going to happen since we harvest the thick of thick timbers.

My friend has his range finder as we free guess some distant objects,,, his range finder fills in the gaps.
All of my out West targets are 20",,, I did this since its about the size of a large Deer. If a Elk fits into the BDC lines, then I know it is 35m further away because of its girth size.

My BDC retrical scope allows me to range from MZ to 400m's,,, further if I wanted to. Girth size of Deer or Elk.

But I'm not a long distance harvester.
The thrill for me is close encounters of the furry kind.
Normally 40 to 140m.

But yes. Ive paced out my distances using a 100m small rope and reflective tape at each distance to the 1 km mark.
It's not that far.

Normally I clay bank shoot where I'm planing on Harvesting game

This gives me a chance to find tracks, pick land marks for ranging distance, and allows me to see things I some times over look.

Reflective tape works good.
I tie about 7 different colours together so it is easier to spot.
Even ribbons look black past the 700 to 800m mark.
Depends alot on where the sun is, clarity of optics and the power zoom of the scope.

Don.

Probably more wrong than right.

[Jay Kyle]

Originally Posted by markg

Looks like the 3 most important things are controlable; Cartridge, exact placement of the gong at a known distance, and using a kestrel to have an exact wind reading.

The one variable I am not sure how to exactly control is target distance. Do you guys use a construction tape to set out your exact distance from shooting position to target? Thats what I am thinking of doing. I dont think I can get a reading on my range finder out to 1000m and my range finder does not adjust for elevation changes.

Suggestions?

Hi Mark,
Figuring distance can be tricky if you're beyond your rangefinder. I'm fortunate enough to have picked up a Vectronix Terrapin before before Vectronix stopped selling them, so I'm good out to about 3500y - but before that I had to use Google Earth to figure my distances since I shoot on crown land.

The Kestral is great!, but between your Kestral, and the target, guessing the wind is a bit of like reading tea leaves.

Here's my spotter buddy and I out one day - we weren't looking for any particular accuracy this day - just getting lead out there from his stock Browning 300WM - about a 3/4 MOA rifle. The distance was 1970 to a boulder in the inner red circle.

BTW Thanks folks for the kind words - always like to share knowledge.

Jay