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  #301  
Old 06-02-2013, 09:18 AM
pickrel pat pickrel pat is offline
 
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Do any of the guys that want to eradicate the wild horses have any domestic animals or ever wintered a horse? In the winters with the heavy snowfalls when swath grazing cattle horses are a great tool as they will paw through a pie of snow to get to the feed then the cows find it. This winter I had some horses out in some pasture land that hadn't been pastured all year so put some horses out for the winter. There was a half section and with the horses pawing through heavy snow deer/elk/moose came for miles and all wintered well! Like SG said surveys are needed get the numbers and cull via more catch permits if #s are to high!
Well there ya go nay sayers!!!! Without them dam horses around there would be no elk left!!!! Lol. Thread closed...
  #302  
Old 06-02-2013, 09:23 AM
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so now because you have no answers you are going to try to make me seem like a fool. I thought you had some credibility but you just lost any you had you are no different then any of the other bozos on here all mouth no proof i'm done with you but not the thread. next time try reading whats posted.
Answers about what? I'm addressing the slaughter or hunting of horses.

You seem to believe that the trapping is a great way for people "to get some horses". For what? The vast majority of captured horses get a date with a captive bolt gun and if you believe otherwise you ARE a fool. So the end result is the same as a bullet. There is just way less stress on the animal that is shot in the field. If it makes you and the masses feel better that the horses are "rounded up" and killed out of sight then so be it. But don't pretend that trapping is the cleaner alternative. The capture permits lead to more suffering. But I guess if its done behind closed doors it is okay.
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  #303  
Old 06-02-2013, 09:26 AM
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Answers about what? I'm addressing the slaughter or hunting of horses.

You seem to believe that the trapping is a great way for people "to get some horses". For what? The vast majority of captured horses get a date with a captive bolt gun and if you believe otherwise you ARE a fool. So the end result is the same as a bullet. There is just way less stress on the animal that is shot in the field. If it makes you and the masses feel better that the horses are "rounded up" and killed out of sight then so be it. But don't pretend that trapping is the cleaner alternative. The capture permits lead to more suffering. But I guess if its done behind closed doors it is okay.
Different strokes for different folks. I've seen a lot of big game wounded and suffering. Running around missing a leg or what not. Suffering is different in everyone's eyes.
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Old 06-02-2013, 09:26 AM
pickrel pat pickrel pat is offline
 
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Answers about what? I'm addressing the slaughter or hunting of horses.

You seem to believe that the trapping is a great way for people "to get some horses". For what? The vast majority of captured horses get a date with a captive bolt gun and if you believe otherwise you ARE a fool. So the end result is the same as a bullet. There is just way less stress on the animal that is shot in the field. If it makes you and the masses feel better that the horses are "rounded up" and killed out of sight then so be it. But don't pretend that trapping is the cleaner alternative. The capture permits lead to more suffering. But I guess if its done behind closed doors it is okay.
Im on the horsey side but this post rings true.
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Old 06-02-2013, 09:42 AM
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Answers about what? I'm addressing the slaughter or hunting of horses.

You seem to believe that the trapping is a great way for people "to get some horses". For what? The vast majority of captured horses get a date with a captive bolt gun and if you believe otherwise you ARE a fool. So the end result is the same as a bullet. There is just way less stress on the animal that is shot in the field. If it makes you and the masses feel better that the horses are "rounded up" and killed out of sight then so be it. But don't pretend that trapping is the cleaner alternative. The capture permits lead to more suffering. But I guess if its done behind closed doors it is okay.
How many horses need to go to slaughter? How many horses need to be thinned. Young horses can be utilized without slaughter. So how many will actually go to slaughter?
  #306  
Old 06-02-2013, 09:45 AM
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Different strokes for different folks. I've seen a lot of big game wounded and suffering. Running around missing a leg or what not. Suffering is different in everyone's eyes.
Stress and suffering is an unfortunate and occasional side effect of hunting. The vast majority of animals suffer very little and experience a short period of stress/fear before dying. If it's good enough for an elk then it should be fine for a horse.

Stress and suffering is guaranteed every single time when you take "wild" free roaming animals, trap them, confine them, truck them hundreds of miles and then push them down a chute of wood and steel surrounded by the sounds and clanks and smells of institutional slaughter.

If you find the latter more palatable than the former -- again. So be it. Bu show the public a video of the day in the life of a horse being shot in the field and one going through the other process and make them pick one or the other. Which would they pick?
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  #307  
Old 06-02-2013, 09:49 AM
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How many horses need to go to slaughter? How many horses need to be thinned. Young horses can be utilized without slaughter. So how many will actually go to slaughter?
Based on my conversations with a couple of folks who have participated -roughly 90% of those captured end up going to slaughter.
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  #308  
Old 06-02-2013, 10:12 AM
pikeslayer22 pikeslayer22 is online now
 
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Hey sjemac if you want to hunt and kill a trophy horse so bad, board a plane to South Africa and kill a Zebra...If the hunt your proposing ever coes to be it will be the demise of hunting as we know it in Ab...the Antis will be all over it!
  #309  
Old 06-02-2013, 10:15 AM
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Based on my conversations with a couple of folks who have participated -roughly 90% of those captured end up going to slaughter.
We(my family since the 60's) used to catch and run lots as pack and saddle horses and even some in the trail riding strings when I guided trail rides. You will never find a better mountain horse once broke.

High percentages are slaughtered as a form to make money at it. What I asked was how many "need" to go to slaughter? And how many need to be removed in the first place.
Of coarse some will be for slaughter but no one here can say just how many!

All we would need is one bad bit of publicity like Austraila had about shooting horses and the horses would be protected as here they are very much a warm and fuzzy creature to most.
  #310  
Old 06-02-2013, 10:21 AM
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How many horses need to go to slaughter?
All of them.
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Old 06-02-2013, 10:27 AM
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Horses die either way. Horses going to slaughter are more likely to go under the radar. But hunting horses will be huge up front and center with the media. And could be just what the people need to get them protected.

Just one vid like the link below happens in Alberta and the fight would be on. It's a lot larger scale over there but all that would need to happen is one horse get wounded and the Wild Horse Society get their hands on it and they will make sure to use the publicity and it will wipe out any chance of us ever controlling the population!!

Here is a link we never want associated with us as hunters here in Alberta. Many of us can understand the culls and what not but one horse ends up like this by our hunting practices and not only will horses be protected but us as hunters will be even hated more and by more people than now!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVX5W...e_gdata_player
  #312  
Old 06-02-2013, 10:28 AM
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We stand a better chance at getting the grizzly hunt reinstated than getting any kind of tag issued for horses. Or any kind of a cull on the horses for that matter.
  #313  
Old 06-02-2013, 10:29 AM
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All of them.
Funny how people don't realize how retarded they look when they have nothing to contribute but still post! Thanks for your knowledgable input Nait.
  #314  
Old 06-02-2013, 10:35 AM
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Do any of the guys that want to eradicate the wild horses have any domestic animals or ever wintered a horse? In the winters with the heavy snowfalls when swath grazing cattle horses are a great tool as they will paw through a pie of snow to get to the feed then the cows find it. This winter I had some horses out in some pasture land that hadn't been pastured all year so put some horses out for the winter. There was a half section and with the horses pawing through heavy snow deer/elk/moose came for miles and all wintered well!
Generally speaking, deer and moose don't utilize the same feed.....in the east slopes. I do realize that in the eastern part of the province, deer and moose feed on grain, haystacks and alfalfa, not so in the west country. There are no elk feeding in the areas pawed, pawed by the horses. Then the little area left uncovered becomes covered with more snow and trampled making it very difficult for an elk to forage. Little isolated meadows that elk relied on for winter feed have been totally grazed out very early in the winter.
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Old 06-02-2013, 11:15 AM
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Generally speaking, deer and moose don't utilize the same feed.....in the east slopes. I do realize that in the eastern part of the province, deer and moose feed on grain, haystacks and alfalfa, not so in the west country. There are no elk feeding in the areas pawed, pawed by the horses. Then the little area left uncovered becomes covered with more snow and trampled making it very difficult for an elk to forage. Little isolated meadows that elk relied on for winter feed have been totally grazed out very early in the winter.
Do you have proof of these grazed out meadows or is this still just more of your idle ramblings with no facts. just once it would be nice if you could prove something that you posted..........
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Old 06-02-2013, 11:26 AM
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What is the biggest factors? Fire suppression, high predator numbers, climate change and I'm sure there is others.

Could horses be a factor on the YaHa? I'd say no! And if you would like to say I'm wrong take me up on my offer to go out there and show me. I've posted video of out there with zero horse sign and I'm not scared to show people or go have people show me where I'm missing the facts is. But not to many will accept the offer lol.

Could there be a disease issue. Highly unlikely as no horses or wild life have been noted in any of the west country as looking sick or guys finding animals that are dieing of disease.
So it's your OPINION that horses are not to blame. No FACTS to back that up. Just like everyone else.

Would take you up on your offer but don't live down there anymore.

Have I seen sign of horses in the west country? Absolutely. Is it the only cause of the elk decline? Of course not. Could it be part of the problem? I'd say yes. (see what I did there)

Now let us take one of your pictures.


I see over grazing and wallowing. Guess there is some impact from these animals.

Livestock belong behind a fence. I would say the same thing about cattle on ranges as well.
  #317  
Old 06-02-2013, 11:32 AM
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Hey sjemac if you want to hunt and kill a trophy horse so bad, board a plane to South Africa and kill a Zebra...If the hunt your proposing ever coes to be it will be the demise of hunting as we know it in Ab...the Antis will be all over it!
I have no desire to shoot a trophy feral horse since the challenge would be about the same as knocking one down in a fenced pasture.

Hunting NEEDS to be the accepted method of all animal control in wild environments. The toehold the anti's need is to be allowed to show that non-lethal control of an animal population works. Should the feral horses set the standard, then why not have non-lethal control of all wildlife?

"We don't need to kill animals to control populations -- look at the wild horses. It worked there," they'll say.

Why should the horses be treated any differently than we do feral hogs, over-populated deer, or excess dogs on reserves? When we set a special set of rules for just one species we set a dangerous precedent that will have far reaching effects and be ultimately more dangerous to hunting in the long run.
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  #318  
Old 06-02-2013, 11:34 AM
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. Then the little area left uncovered becomes covered with more snow and trampled making it very difficult for an elk to forage. Little isolated meadows that elk relied on for winter feed have been totally grazed out very early in the winter.[/QUOTE]

This is the part a lot of people don't understand, once its trampled it is froze hard. Elk cant get to it. Don't shovel your walk after a few snow storms walk on it daily, after a couple Chinooks then try to shovel it. Its a bit of work to get it cleared. Its about competition for food. Some years with a mild winter its not much of a problem, hard winters its a problem. The quality of forage feed also plays a major role in this. Horses can and will founder (spelling) on grass. Have you ever seen an elk founder on the feed in question, or a feral horse? No, the reason is because there is very little food quality in the feed. It takes more feed to keep there calorie count up.
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Old 06-02-2013, 11:43 AM
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. Then the little area left uncovered becomes covered with more snow and trampled making it very difficult for an elk to forage. Little isolated meadows that elk relied on for winter feed have been totally grazed out very early in the winter.
This is the part a lot of people don't understand, once its trampled it is froze hard. Elk cant get to it. Don't shovel your walk after a few snow storms walk on it daily, after a couple Chinooks then try to shovel it. Its a bit of work to get it cleared. Its about competition for food. Some years with a mild winter its not much of a problem, hard winters its a problem. The quality of forage feed also plays a major role in this. Horses can and will founder (spelling) on grass. Have you ever seen an elk founder on the feed in question, or a feral horse? No, the reason is because there is very little food quality in the feed. It takes more feed to keep there calorie count up.[/QUOTE]

So your saying it is the hard winter that is causing the Elk population to decline.
  #320  
Old 06-02-2013, 11:43 AM
sjemac sjemac is offline
 
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Here is a link we never want associated with us as hunters here in Alberta. Many of us can understand the culls and what not but one horse ends up like this by our hunting practices and not only will horses be protected but us as hunters will be even hated more and by more people than now!!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVX5W...e_gdata_player
Better than this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1fszCjQcxn0

Alberta horses are already ending up like the ones in the Aussie vid.

Bring in a cull and force the hunters to utilize the meat -- just like we do with other animals. Force them to take the hide too.
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  #321  
Old 06-02-2013, 11:45 AM
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Are the feral horses to blame for the rapid and unexplained drop in elk numbers, yes.

Feral horses carry disease that can spread to wildlife populations.
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  #322  
Old 06-02-2013, 11:52 AM
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So your saying it is the hard winter that is causing the Elk population to decline.


Please re read my post. Once the snow is packed down by the horses, elk cannot get down to the feed. Harsh conditions and poor quality feed equals dead critters. More critters competing on one food source becomes a competition.
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Old 06-02-2013, 11:58 AM
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So your saying it is the hard winter that is causing the Elk population to decline.


Please re read my post. Once the snow is packed down by the horses, elk cannot get down to the feed. Harsh conditions and poor quality feed equals dead critters. More critters competing on one food source becomes a competition.
As you can see in Sheepguides vids and pics there is no sign of horses being that area for a substantial amount of time but yet the Elk population is down drastically in that area. So it cannot be the fault of horses packing the snow down. so look for the real reason instead of blaming something that is not there. Like possibly harsh winter killing....
  #324  
Old 06-02-2013, 12:00 PM
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Are the feral horses to blame for the rapid and unexplained drop in elk numbers, yes.

Feral horses carry disease that can spread to wildlife populations.
Rodents carry for more diseases then wild horses do .....
  #325  
Old 06-02-2013, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Nait Hadya View Post
Are the feral horses to blame for the rapid and unexplained drop in elk numbers, yes.

Feral horses carry disease that can spread to wildlife populations.
And pray tell grand master Nait, what would that disease would be classified as?
  #326  
Old 06-02-2013, 12:40 PM
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Ive watched multiple generations of horses out there born in the wild. They have be that way for for more years than ive been out there and ive travelled that country one way or another since i was born in 1974 so yes many to me are wild as they have never know nor has 20+ generations that I know of prior to thatknow any hand of man or seen the inside of a fence!!



There is in most of the foothills and eastern slopes more actual grass lands than there has been for a hundred years or better so until I see proof that the horses are actually depriving any other animals from feed I dont believe they are hurting the other wildlife populations. I still feel they need to be controlled but just because they dont need to grow in populations and need to be stabilized



I dont feel it would cause enough of a change in feelings. People have thoughts on horses no matter where they come from. And that wont change if you tell them anything. Peoples perspective on horses isnt based on how they got where they are.



You dont feel Brown Trout take away from native fishes? And to you they serve no purpose but to many they are part of the west country, part of many generations of their families childhoods seeing these animals out there. So because you as a human cant hunt something it serves no purpose?
I read your responses above, and I am a little disapointed.
I'll start from the top and work down.
It is obvious you have a romantic sympathetic view towards he horses, that serve no other purpose but to provide eye candy for an interested few.
The fact that some of these horses have never seen the hand of man does not make them wild. It doesn't matter how many generations they have been out there, they are still decendants of domesticated animals. This still makes them feral, not wild.

I am not sure what proof you need that the horses are not impacting habitat. By the sheer fact that they are there, and are not supposed to be, they are negatively impacting the enviroment. Again, every blade of grass that a horse eats, could be eaten by an animal that is native to that habitat.

You say you feel the need for control, but still want protection? How is all of this to be paid for?
I have another very simple question. If you had only one dollar to spend on wildlife management, would you spend that dollar on elk, moose, and deer, or would you spend it on the horses?

People are funny. They form opinions based on what they know, and on what they are told. If you keep calling them "wild" people believe it. Start calling them feral, and then educate based on that one word, I strongly feel opinions would change. We still have a seal hunt in this country, and still mine asbestos. Life will go on.

Finally, if brown trout are not a native species, then my opinion is they shouldn't be there.
So, because these horses are nice to look at, by people in a small area, my tax dollars are being spent to protect them? No thanks.

In summary, this is the deal. It is the truth. If I am wrong anywhere in my summary, please point it out.
These horses are decendants from escaped or freed domesticated animals. That makes them, by definition, feral. They happen to live in an enviroment that has allowed them to survive. Just because they can, certainly doesn't mean they should. You have said yourself that there is no way to eradicate these animals, and I agree.
You say that there is no proof that they are affecting other wildlife. Again, I say by the simple fact that they are there, and are not supposed to be, they have an affect. This is very simple logic, and if you can refute it, please try. It is not a question of how much grass and habitat there is.
As with most things in this world, these horses cost money. That money is generated by taxes that we all pay. I'm also sure that donations are made. This is another matter, so I'll just stick with the taxes. There is only so much money available for wildlife management. The fact that some if this money is being spent on aniamls that don't belong, is a travesty. That money should be spent on actual wildlife. See my question about the dollar above.

Opinion time: I see absolutly no difference in rounding up feral horses and taking them to slaughter and issuing tags (revenue generation) for hunters to shoot and eat them, except the hunter is actual showing more respect for the animal. Use the existing laws to manage horses, just like we do for everything else in this province. Hell, we can go and shoot a bison, but not feral horses? How does that even make sense?
Your proposed control and protection plan will cost money, and plenty of it. Where do you expect this money to come from?
In closing, bottom line, these are feral animals and don't belong on the landcape. They have a negative impact from the fact that they are there. Eradication is not rellay a realistic option, but I don't see why they can't be rounded up, shot, re-domesticated, or whatever. Numbers will be reduced, and the survivors will go further into tougher to reach places, where you can still take all of the pictures of them you want.

R.
  #327  
Old 06-02-2013, 12:56 PM
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Rman, very well stated!
  #328  
Old 06-02-2013, 01:01 PM
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So it's your OPINION that horses are not to blame. No FACTS to back that up. Just like everyone else.

Would take you up on your offer but don't live down there anymore.

Have I seen sign of horses in the west country? Absolutely. Is it the only cause of the elk decline? Of course not. Could it be part of the problem? I'd say yes. (see what I did there)

Now let us take one of your pictures.


I see over grazing and wallowing. Guess there is some impact from these animals.

Livestock belong behind a fence. I would say the same thing about cattle on ranges as well.
You see over grazing and wallowing? I see one of many big mineral licks to the right of the horses that Moose, deer, elk and horses frequent at a steady rate. This one can be viewed north of Yara creek on the trunk road. The immediate area around any mineral lick in any of the west country even when completely void of horses are grazed basically to the dirt. In this case it's a couple acre area and does not reflect the whole west or even close to it.
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Old 06-02-2013, 01:05 PM
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Rman, very well stated!
Simple truth always tends to be a good statement.




R.
  #330  
Old 06-02-2013, 01:35 PM
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Rodents carry for more diseases then wild horses do .....
LT give up ..ur proposition is for everyone to go out west and count terds ..the horsy's hafta go ..like Nait said "all of them "
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