Brown Bear Caliber ?

[Mountain Guy]

correct me if m wrong...but a shoulder shot at 90 degree would / could miss any vitals where as behind the shoulder will / should hit the vitals.
I'm not a grizz expert but my thinking is that a shoulder shot is no guarantee of a disabling shot. Could a bullet not just pass thru a shoulder blade and not disable ? I know bears are probably the toughest critters in these parts and I would think that a hole in a shoulder blade or 2 may not disable. I guess the same would apply to a heart / lung shot but at least that is a mortal shot.
I think I'd rather have a mortally wounded bear chewing on me over a bear with sore shoulders

Shots to solid bone cause some massive disruption to the central nervous system and typically end up with animals hitting the ground hard. You don't simply put a hole through the shoulder when reasonable velocity is involed, you smash and devestate bone all the way through. A follow up shot may be required (often not) but if it is, the animal is right there. You take out both shoulders and a bear is going no where. At least that's been my experience.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Shots to solid bone cause some massive disruption to the central nervous system and typically end up with animals hitting the ground hard.

Originally Posted by chuck

LOL...you've had different results with double shoulder hits?

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

LOL...you've had different results with double shoulder hits?

I'm no doctor, but shots to massive bone do not necessarily cause massive disruption to the CNS. I mean come on. When an animal is bearing weight on his front end and you break both legs he will put his nose in the dirt because those bones are what is holding him up. It has nothing to do with his spine or brain.

Originally Posted by chuck

I'm no doctor, but shots to massive bone do not necessarily cause massive disruption to the CNS. I mean come on. When an animal is bearing weight on his front end and you break both legs he will put his nose in the dirt because those bones are what is holding him up. It has nothing to do with his spine or brain.

I've also seen animals go completely stiff legged and lie on their side totally rigid only to try and get up a miniute or two later. Sounds like a central nervous system disruption to me...I mean come on. I've got video You cause major trama to bone near the spine and there is going to be temporary central nervous system disruption. I do agree with you, however, you're right, you are no doctor.

[PoppaW]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

you are no doctor.

Maybe he stayed at a Holiday Inn last night.
Sorry

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I've also seen animals go completely stiff legged and lie on their side totally rigid only to try and get up a miniute or two later. Sounds like a central nervous system disruption to me...I mean come on. I've got video You cause major trama to bone near the spine and there is going to be temporary central nervous system disruption. I do agree with you, however, you're right, you are no doctor.

Are you running for office somewhere? You moonwalk in circles better than Michael Jackson.

[LongDraw]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I've also seen animals go completely stiff legged and lie on their side totally rigid only to try and get up a miniute or two later. Sounds like a central nervous system disruption to me...I mean come on. I've got video You cause major trama to bone near the spine and there is going to be temporary central nervous system disruption. I do agree with you, however, you're right, you are no doctor.

Sounds like a shockwave!? LOL!

[cpppark]

375 h&h with 300 grain Swift A Frames. Always worked for me.

Originally Posted by chuck

Are you running for office somewhere? You moonwalk in circles better than Michael Jackson.

LOL...I've said the same thing since the beginning. You seem to be the one having trouble understanding. I find it interesting how knowledgeable you are about shoulder shots considering you don't seem to be a fan....

Tell me what caused the ram at 7 seconds to fall over and go legs in the air. BTW it was a high shoulder shot.

http://www.youtube.com/user/sheephun.../4/Gl1aZA4Q40E

Originally Posted by LongDraw

Sounds like a shockwave!? LOL!

LOL.....not quite. I've never said that a temporary disruption of the nervous system wasn't very possible...but it's rarely deadly....almost never as a matter of fact but it sure can cause lights out for a few seconds or longer.

[Mountain Guy]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

LOL.....not quite. I've never said that a temporary disruption of the nervous system wasn't very possible...but it's rarely deadly....almost never as a matter of fact but it sure can cause lights out for a few seconds or longer.

Well... a shot behind the shoulder can cause the same disruption to the nervous system in the form of energy dissipation released. The energy release is what drops an animal on the spot...outside of a spine or head shot.

[Pathfinder76]

This is getting good.

Originally Posted by Mountain Guy

Well... a shot behind the shoulder can cause the same disruption to the nervous system in the form of energy dissipation released. The energy release is what drops an animal on the spot...outside of a spine or head shot.

Shoot 'em where you're comfortable but experience tells me that a shoulder shot results in far more animals hitting the deck on the spot.....something extremely desireable with bears. I'll resist the temptation to debate how bullets do their work.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

LOL...I've said the same thing since the beginning. You seem to be the one having trouble understanding. I find it interesting how knowledgeable you are about shoulder shots considering you don't seem to be a fan....

Tell me what caused the ram at 7 seconds to fall over and go legs in the air. BTW it was a high shoulder shot.

http://www.youtube.com/user/sheephun.../4/Gl1aZA4Q40E

You said, and I quote, "Shots to solid bone cause some massive disruption to the central nervous system and typically end up with animals hitting the ground hard."

I don't care how many weird hunting show trailers you show. That is an unequivocal load of crap.

Originally Posted by chuck

You said, and I quote, "Shots to solid bone cause some massive disruption to the central nervous system and typically end up with animals hitting the ground hard."

I don't care how many weird hunting show trailers you show. That is an unequivocal load of crap.

Why again did the ram go feet in the air?

You were the one that said, and I quote "I'm so glad allot of this stuff is now on video."

[Mountain Guy]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Shoot 'em where you're comfortable but experience tells me that a shoulder shot results in far more animals hitting the deck on the spot.....something extremely desireable with bears. I'll resist the temptation to debate how bullets do their work.

I'm going to say then.... not with a 30-06 it won't. If...as part of the discussion in this thread.... your not using a big bore, then we can argue that the heart /lung shot is the better option.....

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Why again did the ram go feet in the air?

You were the one that said, and I quote "I'm so glad allot of this stuff is now on video."

Dude, when you disrupt the spine you often disrupt the CNS. A "high" (read I missed) shoulder shot often will disrupt the spine. Please tell me how that applies to this statement you keep dancing around. "Shots to solid bone cause some massive disruption to the central nervous system and typically end up with animals hitting the ground hard."

This is exactly why "I'm so glad allot of this stuff is now on video."

Originally Posted by Mountain Guy

I'm going to say then.... not with a 30-06 it won't. If...as part of the discussion in this thread.... your not using a big bore, then we can argue that the heart /lung shot is the better option.....

I punched my grizz through the shoulders with a 300WM......shooting the same bullet a 30-06 uses. The ram was hit with a 270. Type of bullet trumps cartridge. Not saying the heart/lungs is a bad option, but even with a .30-06 it wouldn't be my first choice. I'd still shoot shoulders.

Originally Posted by chuck

Dude, when you disrupt the spine you often disrupt the CNS. A "high" (read I missed) shoulder shot often will disrupt the spine. Please tell me how that applies to this statement you keep dancing around. "Shots to solid bone cause some massive disruption to the central nervous system and typically end up with animals hitting the ground hard."

This is exactly why "I'm so glad allot of this stuff is now on video."

Since we were discussing shoulder shots, I just figured some things were a given. You understand where the shoulder sits...right?

[Mountain Guy]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I punched my grizz through the shoulders with a 300WM......shooting the same bullet a 30-06 uses. The ram was hit with a 270. Type of bullet trumps cartridge. Not saying the heart/lungs is a bad option, but even with a .30-06 it wouldn't be my first choice. I'd still shoot shoulders.

I think your missing some important variables in your comment....one being distance. I would argue that at ..lets say 300 yards...a 06 would be better placed into the shoulder verses parting the ribs.....solid copper bullet or not








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[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Mountain Guy

I think your missing some important variables in your comment....one being distance. I would argue that at ..lets say 300 yards...a 06 would be better placed into the shoulder verses parting the ribs.....solid copper bullet or not

The thing about solid copper bullets is that they don't penetrate as well at very high velocities as they do at mid velocities. Typically, a very close shot will result in less penetration, but the rapid expansion of the bullet is devestating where a mid range shot will typically offer more penetration due to less rapid expansion. Obviously there are cases for a heart/lung shot but under normal hunting conditions for grizz, I'll take the shoulder every time, and have. I hit the ram in the video at 371 yards and had a complete pass through, breaking a lot of bone as the bullet went and it wasn't even a mono metal bullet.

I'm not saying selecting the heart/lungs is wrong but experience leads me to the conclusion that I'll stick with shoulders.

[sns2]

Of all the guys to argue with, I would suggest that Sheephunter would be the last one you should imply is up his rear-end.

Dude, you break shoulders and the animal is going down, and at the very least offering you what is almost always a high quality follow up shot. As I'm sure you know, this is not always the case with a lung shot.

You want the animal on the ground, especially a brown bear. He can chew your arss off.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by sns2

Of all the guys to argue with, I would suggest that Sheephunter would be the last one you should imply is up his rear-end.

Dude, you break shoulders and the animal is going down, and at the very least offering you what is almost always a high quality follow up shot. As I'm sure you know, this is not always the case with a lung shot.

You want the animal on the ground, especially a brown bear. He can chew your arss off.

was just going to say the same thing!...Browns and Grizzlies ....break down their locomotion....no front shoulders...not going far, not to mention the shock trauma to the CNS as TJ has mentioned.....

[Traps]

Breaking shoulders is the same as Chucks argument......no legs to stand on.

[BrownBear416]

Originally Posted by chuck

I don't question the ability of any caliber to do the job, but being in on over two dozen dead bear, half my own, I've yet to see an angle that allowed it. Are we talking shoulder muscle or bone?

Ive been in on probably 50+ plus bear kills (close to 20 of my own) and I have seen lots of bears drop in their tracks with 1 or both shoulders broke..

One thing I have never seen on a bear is a quality bullet fired from a large caliber firearm stop on the shoulder and not enter the lungs

Ive also found that bears shot in the shoulders that do get back up on their feet cant go very far, very fast and 99% of the time allow for an anchoring 2nd shot..

My thoughts anyways

[Rockymtnx]

Originally Posted by chuck

I don't question the ability of any caliber to do the job, but being in on over two dozen dead bear, half my own, I've yet to see an angle that allowed it. Are we talking shoulder muscle or bone?

The bullet travelled through the first shoulder disintegrating the ball joint and severely damaging the shoulder blade right above the ball joint socket on the opposite side. Your right the angle has to be perfect, but yes it can happen.
Just an example where a MAGNUM may just out perform and non-magnum cartridge.

[Rockymtnx]

On the same topic, one large black bear that I double lunged went 250 - 275 yards before he piled up. Considering I was only 125 yards from him when I pulled the pin, the bear could have just as easily came towards me. I know with a broken front end on him, he wouldn't have been travelling that distance. I know it would be pretty hard for one to come after me with no front wheels on him.

[Mountain Guy]

Originally Posted by Rockymtnx

On the same topic, one large black bear that I double lunged went 250 - 275 yards before he piled up. Considering I was only 125 yards from him when I pulled the pin, the bear could have just as easily came towards me. I know with a broken front end on him, he wouldn't have been travelling that distance. I know it would be pretty hard for one to come after me with no front wheels on him.

Geez....it seems as every shoulder shot you guys refer to are double shoulder take outs??
So..everybody agrees that a shoulder shot is going to take out both shoulders??
Thats where I disagree.... anybody that can agree with that can also see that a ''three'' wheeled bear is a dangerous bear.