Handloads seem less powerful

[ironkid96]

Compared to box ammo my loads for my 300 wby seem to lack the "punch" box ammo had. Less felt recoil, seems quieter, ballistically out to 200 yards it seems comparable tho.

I've worked up to 70 grains of imr 4350 pushing 180 A-max's. Winchester mag primers and noser brass. There is noticeably less powder in my loads as you can hear t when you shake the cartridge. My reloading manual says the max grains for this powder is 72 (hornadymanual)

Keep working it up? Try slower burning powders? Anyone with powders they like for this caliber and how much they are using?

Any input I like to hear

[savagewsm]

I had a thread on a similar issue:

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=74567

Is anyone else seeing similar things with reloads compared to factory bought ?

Are the loads listed in the books bellow factory levels by a significant amount ?

I know all about pressure signs when developing loads but I tend to load towards the mild side rather than push the envelope. Could I be undercutting my rifles potential ?

[LongDraw]

Are you shooting over a chronograph? By your description it sounds like you are not.

You should always shoot over a chronograph when working up a load.

[ironkid96]

No chrono
I have only been going off book data and watching for pressure signs. By the book it should be around 3000 fps. But I think I must be less. The little recoil/ noise for such a large calibre is making me wonder...

[justinO]

Hey, I think you need to work on a different load. If your shooting a 300 wby with a 180 grain bullet you should be able to push over 3000fps easily with great accuracy. I shoot a 300win with 190gr bergers pushing 2940ish fps with very close to max load of Re-22. I wanted a 300wby but I just went with the 300win seeing as had one prior and had all the reloading stuff, but the 300 wby is a great caliber with unreal ballistic. If you have time take a look at the bergers you could push that 190gr well over 3000fps with a .570 B.C you would have a unreal load. What kind of Gun do you have?

[Scott N]

I agree with LongDraw... pick up a chronograph. You can pick up a basic Shooting Chrony for just over $100, and they truly are valuable tool for reloaders. You'll never really know what velocity you're getting with your handloads (or factory ammo) until you clock your loads out of your own rifle. It can be a real eye opener!

[justinO]

I second that. A chrono is a great investment if you want to be serious with your loads. And once you know your exact velocities it opens up lots of ballistic data with all the various calculators out there.
All the best with your gun

[HunterDave]

Originally Posted by ironkid96

Compared to box ammo my loads for my 300 wby seem to lack the "punch" box ammo had. Less felt recoil, seems quieter

I'll agree 100%. A few weeks ago I worked up loads in my 300 win mag using Nosler 180gr BT until I had a nice 1" grouping. I felt very comfortable with my reload ammo. After I found the right load I did one more grouping with factory Core-Lokt 180gr PSP. My rifle kicked like a mule in comparison to the reloaded ammo and I could only get a 3" grouping. I don't know if I lost any "punch" but I did gain better accuracy.

[bobinthesky]

The load you tried actually sounds pretty enemic and I would think that Weatherby ammo would be quite a bit hotter, to say the least.
Nosler's #6 handbook lists 76 grains of 4350 as being max with Noslers 180 grain bullets and lists 3088 fps with that load.
They also list RL19 as being the fastest powder for that bullet at 3198fps. I suspect that you could get more speed out of H4831 and H450 too. Those powders are old 300Wby standards.
If I recall correctly, Weatherby lists their 180 grain load around 3250fps.

[6tmile]

I thought the same thing when i first started loading for my 270 years ago. It had much less recoil, once i ran my loads across a chrony my loads were 300 fps faster than factory fodder, I use imr 4350, another load with imr 4064 was absolutely brutal on the shoulder and not much diffrence in speed compared to factory, Me thinks if you are getting good accuracy and less recoil you have found the powder that your shooter likes, but try it across a chrony just to make sure

[bobinthesky]

There is no doubt that different powders can produce different levels of recoil.
Some loads in my 7 mag using H870 produced a lot of recoil whereas RL22 gave the same velocity with significant less recoil. Roughly 15 grains less powder involved though.

[ironkid96]

Thanks for the input guys.

Ya I should be hooting over a chrony there is no doubt. And to be honest I have not shot the gun past 300 on the range as of yet.

I wonder how much load data changes over the books. 180 noslers and 180 hornadys cant be that much different.... Yet someone mentioned max powder being alot higher. With my 70 gr load there is alot of space left.... I can hake the cartidge and you can hear the powder has alot of room to move around. You would think this would cause inconsistency... It's shooting just under 3/4 in MOA which I think is pretty darn good for a vanguard. But I dent buy a 300 wby to shoot reduced loads... I guess a chrono will tell.


Anyone shot over a paintball chrono? Will it work?

[bobinthesky]

I'm very leary of reduced loads in big cases. They were ment to be loaded full or close to it.

[Homesteader]

I don't know if Weatherby is still loaded by Norma, but if it is you can bet it will be a tough load to beat, for both velocity, and probably accuracy.

A chrony would be nice, but not really necesarry. If you can use a similar bullet, just start shooting at some distance....say whatever your max range will be, if the bullet is significantly lower from your reload, well I'd say it is slower. Check a few out past 300yds without dialing elevation differences.

[bobinthesky]

You can get a good idea what your bullet performance is without a crony and without going anywhere near the range.

Just looking up your load in the manuals, I think it's safe to say that your velocity is in the vicinity of 2800 fps, or close enough to it for this excersize anyway. That's asuming a 24 inch barrel since you mentioned the rifle is a vanguard.

Use a balistics calculator like this one,

http://www.handloads.com/calc/index.html

And you can compare your load to a factory round using a velocity of 3200 fps for argument since factory ammo is around this speed, or maybe a bit less from a Vanguard.

A quick calculation shows that a nosler bullet launched at 3200 fps will drop 8.5 inches less than one launched at 2800 fps assuming a 275 yard zero.

The only way to confirm your velocity is with a crono but judging from what I see, you have a pretty good 30-06 load there!



Just kidding......

[elkhunter11]

You can get a good idea what your bullet performance is without a crony and without going anywhere near the range.

Without shooting the load,you can't determine accuracy,and accuracy is a huge factor.If you can't place the bullet properly,the velocity means nothing.

Just looking up your load in the manuals, I think it's safe to say that your velocity is in the vicinity of 2800 fps, or close enough to it for this excersize anyway.

I have seen actual velocities vary by up to 200fps from some manuals.Because of different chamber dimensions,different lots of powder,and different bullets,there is no way to accurately estimate velocity.

A quick calculation shows that a nosler bullet launched at 3200 fps will drop 8.5 inches less than one launched at 2800 fps assuming a 275 yard zero.

He is not even using Nosler bullets.

180 noslers and 180 hornadys cant be that much different...

Some Nosler bullets,and in fact some Hornady bullets are very different.Both the Nosler -E Tip,and the Hornady GMX are very different bullets than the conventional bullets produced by both companies.Loads that are safe for a normal cup and core bullets,may not be safe for either of those bullets.

With my 70 gr load there is alot of space left.... I can hake the cartidge and you can hear the powder has alot of room to move around. You would think this would cause inconsistency..

You can't predict accuracy by the amount of space left in a loaded case.A cartridge loaded to 90% capacity could be much more accurate in a specific gun,than a compressed load.

[bobinthesky]

Off your meds again are we Elkhunter11



Without shooting the load,you can't determine accuracy,and accuracy is a huge factor.If you can't place the bullet properly,the velocity means nothing.

He stated that the load was shooting 3/4 inch groups!


I have seen actual velocities vary by up to 200fps from some manuals.Because of different chamber dimensions,different lots of powder,and different bullets,there is no way to accurately estimate velocity

Thats why I said "in the vicinity". Thats also why I said that the velocity could only be confirmed with a crono.

He is not even using Nosler bullets

I never said that he was. This is called "an example"!



This nonsense could have been avoided if you had reread the posts before spouting off.

[Kurt.Hanger]

Here are a few good loads I've been shooting in my 300 Weatherby Accumark w/ 26" barrel.
- 85.2gr Retumbo w/ 190gr VLD's
- 78.8gr Reloader 22 w/ 190gr VLD's
- 88.2gr Retumbo w/ 180gr TTSX's
- 84gr Reloader 22 w/ 165gr GMX's
- 84.5gr Reloader 22 w/ 180gr TTSX's
- 88.2gr Retumbo w/ 180gr TTSX's
- 88gr Reloader 22 / 150gr TTSX's

[elkhunter11]

This nonsense could have been avoided if you had reread the posts before spouting off.

I did read the posts,and you posted.

You can get a good idea what your bullet performance is without a crony and without going anywhere near the range.

If he hadn't already gone to the range,he would have no idea of the accuracy potential of the load.So a person really can't get an idea of the loads performance without going to the range,and shooting the load.

And if you are going to guess at velocity,a way to more accurately estimate velocity without a chronograph, is to sight the load in at 100 yards,shoot it at 300 or 400 yards,and measure the drop at 300 or 400 yards.Then using the BC for the specific bullet,you can plug in velocity numbers until you come close to matching the actual trajectory of the load.But then again,you need to shoot the gun to estimate velocity using that method as well.

I never said that he was. This is called "an example"!

An example that really has no bearing to the thread,since he is using the Hornady A-max.It would have made much more sense to simply use the numbers for his bullet,since he already posted what bullet he was using.

[junkdude]

I can't speak for your cartridger but I can share what I've found with 22 hornet, 223, 308, 30-06 & 45-70 load development.

Did Ladder load development with 223 and 30-06 and found the sweet spot for my gun, cartridge, powder, primer, etc combination. In most cases it was about 75% of the max published load. not as much kick as factory stuff but significantly improved accuracy. The tried same everything including bullet weight but different manufacture and very different performance. If you match the velocity with a different powder, it likely will not perform exactly the same, might be close enough for you though.

I recently started using pressure trace to capture the chamber pressure. results were very interesting. Factory ammo sometimes has a secondary pressure spike, also the calculations showed that the bullet exit point timing was not ideal, contributing less than optimum accuracy. The pressure trace + chrongraph system confirmed (to my satisfaction anyhow) that the 223 load which was developed using the ladder load development method (no fancy electronics) was optimum and could not be improved on much. It also proved to me why changes in any one component makes it a different load which may need optimizing; depending on how anal you are about accuracy.

So... you can work up a very accurate load without having to blast the bullet out at light speed and burn your barrel and brass up and without the need of electronics, although it is nice to know how fast it's going so you can do ballistics calculations.

Be wary of thinking you can recognise pressure signs. I thought I could and was sure that I was close to max. It turned out that a flattened primer was due to a softer or thinner primer cup. Pressure trace showed I was still approx15,000 psi away from matching a factory reference load. Data was very repeatable, factory ammo is not optimum it is average.

[bobinthesky]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I did read the posts,and you posted.



If he hadn't already gone to the range,he would have no idea of the accuracy potential of the load.So a person really can't get an idea of the loads performance without going to the range,and shooting the load.

And if you are going to guess at velocity,a way to more accurately estimate velocity without a chronograph, is to sight the load in at 100 yards,shoot it at 300 or 400 yards,and measure the drop at 300 or 400 yards.Then using the BC for the specific bullet,you can plug in velocity numbers until you come close to matching the actual trajectory of the load.But then again,you need to shoot the gun to estimate velocity using that method as well.




An example that really has no bearing to the thread,since he is using the Hornady A-max.It would have made much more sense to simply use the numbers for his bullet,since he already posted what bullet he was using.

Whatever.......

[hal53]

^^^^ SIGH...yet again another nice hijack between two "outdoorsmen"...Nice...very nice

[bobinthesky]

Which two outdoorsmen highjacked the thread Hal?

If your refering to me, I defended my statements and quit. And my statements were pertaining to the origional post.

In case you are unaware Hal, a highjacked thread is where the subject matter gets changed to something unrelated to the origional post. Where did this happen here?

[hal53]

so I guess post #17 was directed at the OP to solve his question/problem?....to quote you....Whatever!!!.... nice shot about the meds though....

[sbtennex]

Comparing factory feed to handloads is somewhat pointless given the many varieties of ammo available. Premium factory stuff sometimes exceeds any safe speed you can wring out of your handloads, but just because it states "x" fps on the box doesn't mean it'll do it in the average barrel. E.g. WInchester claims 3450 or so fps with a 165 gr bullet in the .300 Win Mag Supreme ammo. Haven't loaded a 165 that'll do over 3250 safely in mine. As far as the .300 W'by goes, unless you have a 26 inch barrel, forget trying to exceed or even meet stated factory speeds. Any 300 W'by deserves a 26" or longer or you might as well have a WSM or Win Mag. If you're getting subMOA groups, you might be able to tweak them a bit with seating depth, but in a Weatherby that's a bit tricky - they have so damned much freebore it can take a pile of shooting. Don't forget that factory ammunition can be loaded with proprietary blended powders we don't have and can't access, like with the Hornady Light Mag and their new trumped up version of it. Their stated speeds exceed what you or I can do by a fair bit, again "stated speeds". Without a chrony I don't know how you can build a good load without a heck of a pile of trial and error, the goal being to reach an optimum speed as stated in handloading manuals. Bottom line is if the load is near the middle to upper end of suggested powder charges and the grouping is very good I'm happy and consider that load as OCW. Look that up - interesting stuff and generally pretty consistent with what we've developed the hard way for years. I'll sacrifice a bit of velocity for accuracy any day. If it's not enough to do the job then I'll use a bigger gun.

[bobinthesky]

Originally Posted by hal53

so I guess post #17 was directed at the OP to solve his question/problem?....to quote you....Whatever!!!.... nice shot about the meds though....

Post 17 was to defend my statements from Elkhunter's attack. The "whatever" thing was me quiting the disagreement.
The meds thing may have been uncalled for but it seemed appropriate at the time due to the manner in which several of us were attacked. Still seems appropriate in fact. Glad you liked it, feel free to use it some time.

Honestly though, the thread was never highjacked.

[elkhunter11]

The meds thing may have been uncalled for but it seemed appropriate at the time due to the manner in which several of us were attacked.

How is posting an opinion that contradicts your own opinion "attacking YOU".

As for the comment about the meds,that was nothing more than a personal attack.

As for the "several people" defensive response,it is a very feeble attempt at trying to make yourself one of "several victims".I doubt that many forum readers are gullible enough to fall for that attempt though.

[WABBIT]

My Accumark and my son in laws vanguard both like H4831SC, we've been running between 80 - 81.5 grains of powder, depending on the rifle and the 180gr bullet. We've run partitions, sst's, tsx's, and scirrocos. Just start low and work your way up. Chrono at 3150fps with the Mk V and a little under 3100 with the vanguard. Hope this helps.

[Rockymtnx]

The most accurate loads I have found with my Accumark have been with a fairly new bullet. 180gr Nosler E-tips and R25 powder.
If you do try R25 powder, you pretty much need a minimum of 26-27" of barrel to burn this slow burning powder.

[ironkid96]

thanks guys im going to maybe try some of the above listed powders and see how it goes.

did make one hell of a shot on a mule deer tonight with this gun (450 yards) and was impressed. bullet mushroomed out and recovered it from the shoulder. still think im shooting a reduced load to what i could be but the accuracy is right on the money.