sheep poachers fined - Page 2

Torkdiesel · #31 03-03-2016, 11:56 AM

Bad deal all around.

Short ram in the wrong WMU is a double whammy.

I'm going to bet the guide didn't know he was in the wrong WMU. Apparently they had camp set up in the same WMU as where the sheep was killed so they likely believed the whole drainage was good to go. With the size of these WMUs there really isn't any need to sneak next door so to speak.

The sad part is a $300 GPS would have easily solved this problem.

As for shooting a short sheep, well like stated before that happens every year. I haven't seen a picture of the sheep to see if it was young or broomed off. From what I've heard it was a 1/4" off legal, one F&W office may have even let it go.

Burying the ram was just stupid, not sure what they were thinking there

elkhunter11 · #32 03-03-2016, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fish_e_o

ok an on the spot call to shoot a ram that falls short. like i said that is unfortunate i'm sure they didn't go out to do that in the first place. but there was a whole boat load of things that went wrong before and after that.

there was also the issue regarding zones. is the guide not checking in via sat phone or spot? does he not know where his people are and where they are hunting?

i cant buy ignorance as an excuse here it doesn't fit.

It was a few years ago, but when I hunted with Skip Selk, we did not have a satellite phone with us while we were hunting out of a spike camp.

fish_e_o · #33 03-03-2016, 12:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

It was a few years ago, but when I hunted with Skip Selk, we did not have a satellite phone with us while we were hunting out of a spike camp.

that's fine i don't hunt with one either, i have a spot (which sucks)

when you were with him did he have a gps? did he make sure his guides had gps's?

bdub · #34 03-03-2016, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torkdiesel

Bad deal all around.

Short ram in the wrong WMU is a double whammy.

I'm going to bet the guide didn't know he was in the wrong WMU. Apparently they had camp set up in the same WMU as where the sheep was killed so they likely believed the whole drainage was good to go. With the size of these WMUs there really isn't any need to sneak next door so to speak.

The sad part is a $300 GPS would have easily solved this problem.

As for shooting a short sheep, well like stated before that happens every year. I haven't seen a picture of the sheep to see if it was young or broomed off. From what I've heard it was a 1/4" off legal, one F&W office may have even let it go.

Burying the ram was just stupid, not sure what they were thinking there

You can bet that not only did the guide know where he was and that he was out of his area but that the outfitter did as well. These people are not joe hicks that don't have a clue about what they are doing in the mountains. They know darn well what creek is what and what height of land is what. Being in the business yourself, I don't think you can honestly believe your statement for a second that they didn't know where they were.

But where they killed the sheep is really not the issue in my opinion. Really, who cares weather they killed it in another outfitters area other than the competing outfitter. The real crime was killing a short sheep and then hiding it. They should have packed it out and called it in and taken their lumps.

Luckwell · #35 03-03-2016, 11:12 PM

Yip. Burying the ram under rocks is intent to conceal a crime and shows a complete disrespect for the life took. Absolutely boils my blood.

Torkdiesel · #36 03-03-2016, 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bdub

You can bet that not only did the guide know where he was and that he was out of his area but that the outfitter did as well. These people are not joe hicks that don't have a clue about what they are doing in the mountains. They know darn well what creek is what and what height of land is what. Being in the business yourself, I don't think you can honestly believe your statement for a second that they didn't know where they were.

But where they killed the sheep is really not the issue in my opinion. Really, who cares weather they killed it in another outfitters area other than the competing outfitter. The real crime was killing a short sheep and then hiding it. They should have packed it out and called it in and taken their lumps.

You're right about the short sheep and burying it being the bigger crime for sure. Definitely should have hauled it off the mountain and took the fine.

We'll likely never know what they were thinking or if they knew they were in the right WMU or not. I utilize the latest technology now so it's easy for me to keep guides and hunters where they are supposed to be. When I outfitted in Alberta it was usually roads or watercourses that were the boundaries. The mountains are a different ball game though, I've definitely hunted places where we crossed into the next WMU and you'd never know it.
If they did intentionally hunt the neighbouring WMU on purpose that's pretty ballsy. To think that the resident outfitter wouldn't be paying attention to what's going on in his zone is pretty stupid.
They also took horses in and set up camp, pretty hard to hide that evidence as well. Not like you crossed into a basin with a pack on and tried to sneak a ram out.
Either way, it's a Fack up. Much easier just following the rules.

crazy_davey · #37 03-04-2016, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bdub

You can bet that not only did the guide know where he was and that he was out of his area but that the outfitter did as well.

It is not rocket science reading a topographical map to figure out where you are. Outfitters and guides know damn well where they are. If they don't, they shouldn't be guiding. Any moron can read a map and understand the lay of the land pretty quick, GPS or not.

One way or another, Skip knew damn well where his guide and client were hunting. Anyone who thinks different is an idiot. The question is if it can be proved or not. After some research it sure sounds like he was part of it. (From the words of someone who knows Logan personally and has heard the story)

The picture of the buried head in the rocks tells a thousand words.

openroad · #38 03-04-2016, 06:25 AM

Wow that is some poor decision making.
Very frustration...

gman1978 · #39 03-04-2016, 07:23 AM

Brutal! I am willing to bet it's not the first time they hunted in the wrong WMU. Just the first time they got caught.

JDK71 · #40 03-04-2016, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gman1978

Brutal! I am willing to bet it's not the first time they hunted in the wrong WMU. Just the first time they got caught.

you got that right

Ultimate Predator · #41 03-04-2016, 08:30 AM

Nail them HARD!!

270 ELK · #42 03-04-2016, 09:28 AM

The guide is being paid to make sure hunter is shooting legal ram The guide should be ban from ever guiding

mk63 · #43 03-04-2016, 10:46 AM

Has APOS handed out any penalties or suspensions as a result of these charges? In any other profession if you are found to be negligent or guilty of a criminal offence, you will loose your licence and will likely never be able to practice again. I don't see why this should be any different.

elkhunter11 · #44 03-04-2016, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mk63

Has APOS handed out any penalties or suspensions as a result of these charges? In any other profession if you are found to be negligent or guilty of a criminal offence, you will loose your licence and will likely never be able to practice again. I don't see why this should be any different.

APOS punish one of it's members? You must be kidding! The APOS poster child L.M. has been convicted several times for various Wildlife Act and Criminal Act violations while outfitting, and he was allowed to keep his allocations, and keep on outfitting.

Fucha · #45 03-04-2016, 11:24 AM

I'm glad these individuals have been punished under the law, my grandfather was involved in anti-poaching operations in Europe and it truly saddened him every time he came across hidden corpses or a pile of skinned foxes.

RZR · #46 03-05-2016, 06:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fish_e_o

ok an on the spot call to shoot a ram that falls short. like i said that is unfortunate i'm sure they didn't go out to do that in the first place. but there was a whole boat load of things that went wrong before and after that.

there was also the issue regarding zones. is the guide not checking in via sat phone or spot? does he not know where his people are and where they are hunting?

i cant buy ignorance as an excuse here it doesn't fit.

You are arguing with a guy who used the outfitter in question, and he trying to justify his action as being ok because he hunted with the outfitter. There's the mentality of "I" used the outfitter so he would never do anything wrong. News flash the outfitter got caught this time, but how many times have they done something wrong where they never got caught. The outfitter can be a nice guy but when you have the pressure to produce results for clients the pay big money for animals you may tend to bend the rules a little. Weren't rules made to be broke.

elkhunter11 · #47 03-05-2016, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RZR

You are arguing with a guy who used the outfitter in question, and he trying to justify his action as being ok because he hunted with the outfitter. There's the mentality of "I" used the outfitter so he would never do anything wrong. News flash the outfitter got caught this time, but how many times have they done something wrong where they never got caught. The outfitter can be a nice guy but when you have the pressure to produce results for clients the pay big money for animals you may tend to bend the rules a little. Weren't rules made to be broke.

If the outfitter was aware of the actions of his guide, I hope that he is charged and convicted, but as of yet I see no evidence proving that he was aware or what his guide was doing.

fish_e_o · #48 03-05-2016, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

If the outfitter was aware of the actions of his guide, I hope that he is charged and convicted, but as of yet I see no evidence proving that he was aware or what his guide was doing.

do you think he took measures to prevent it from happening?

i think the outfitter should get a fine. from the details i've heard they were put up in a camp either in the wrong zone or very close to a border and then told to hunt. that's a recipe for disaster with a guide who may not know where they are all the time.

they should have had a discussion about where the border is, drawn it on a map and maybe even shown the guide first hand. or even equiped him with the proper tools to do the job on my gps it has the wmu borders and i think i can program it to warn me if i leave it

elkhunter11 · #49 03-05-2016, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fish_e_o

do you think he took measures to prevent it from happening?

i think the outfitter should get a fine. from the details i've heard they were put up in a camp either in the wrong zone or very close to a border and then told to hunt. that's a recipe for disaster with a guide who may not know where they are all the time.

they should have had a discussion about where the border is, drawn it on a map and maybe even shown the guide first hand. or even equiped him with the proper tools to do the job on my gps it has the wmu borders and i think i can program it to warn me if i leave it

Since I was not present to hear any conversation between the outfitter and the guide, I have no way of knowing what they discussed. I am not going to assume what the guide was told.

sage 13 · #50 03-05-2016, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fish_e_o

do you think he took measures to prevent it from happening?

i think the outfitter should get a fine. from the details i've heard they were put up in a camp either in the wrong zone or very close to a border and then told to hunt. that's a recipe for disaster with a guide who may not know where they are all the time.

they should have had a discussion about where the border is, drawn it on a map and maybe even shown the guide first hand. or even equiped him with the proper tools to do the job on my gps it has the wmu borders and i think i can program it to warn me if i leave it

Sounds like you no a fair bit about this. Were these details you talk about brought up in court or is it just rumours.

fish_e_o · #51 03-05-2016, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sage 13

Sounds like you no a fair bit about this. Were these details you talk about brought up in court or is it just rumours.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acesneights

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=279165

brought up in court, there's a bit more info on the older post

fish_e_o · #52 03-05-2016, 10:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Since I was not present to hear any conversation between the outfitter and the guide, I have no way of knowing what they discussed. I am not going to assume what the guide was told.

hear no evil speak no evil see no evil

sage 13 · #53 03-05-2016, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fish_e_o

brought up in court, there's a bit more info on the older post

So if it was brought up in court and nothing happened to the outfitter then maybe he was un aware of any of it or is there another case pending.
Wonder what the guide means when he says stress caused him to go out of the area and what caused the stress was it the hunter.
If stress is causing him to do something illegal he should probably not be allowed to guide again.

fish_e_o · #54 03-05-2016, 11:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sage 13

So if it was brought up in court and nothing happened to the outfitter then maybe he was un aware of any of it or is there another case pending.
Wonder what the guide means when he says stress caused him to go out of the area and what caused the stress was it the hunter.

Quote:

Originally Posted by thegunman

Supposedly the outfitter had taken them into a zone where they didn't have an allocation for.

that's what i was referring to

sage 13 · #55 03-05-2016, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fish_e_o

that's what i was referring to

supposedly the outfitter took him into an area were he didn't have an allocation. This was also brought up in the other thread that they could
camp in another area legally.
Is there another case pending against the outfitter for doing anything wrong or knowing anything about what went on or is it just hear say about what he did or knew.

fish_e_o · #56 03-05-2016, 11:16 AM

my point was that if you bring them to a different wmu to camp you better make double and triple sure they wont be hunting in it. because that could be a confusing situation for a guide

sage 13 · #57 03-05-2016, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fish_e_o

my point was that if you bring them to a different wmu to camp you better make double and triple sure they wont be hunting in it. because that could be a confusing situation for a guide

I see what your getting at and that's what is unknowing unless some one was there. If the outfitter told him to hunt there then he should be charged as well, but if the guide and hunter did this on there own accord then its on them.
The comment from the guide that says stress played a big part in taking Morgan outside the confines of there hunting licence is a weird one to me.
What caused this stress, makes it sound like he(the guide) new what he was doing so he took the guy outside the area why shoot a small sheep then bury it was this all because of stress as well. IMO he shouldn't be allowed to guide again.

SageValleyOutdoors · #58 03-05-2016, 04:40 PM

I used to guide for an outfitter who lacked any morals whatsoever - at the time, I always assumed everything was legit and perfectly legal. If he said we were good for permission in a certain area, we'd hunt it.
After a few years, F&W contacted me about an investigation into this guy - I cooperated and after seeing the outfitter's yearly reports, I could see that not only was I guiding clients in the wrong zone, but often he would have me listed as guiding clients that I had never even met!
I always assumed when I was guiding that the hunter had the proper tag in the proper zone, and that we always had permission to hunt the land we were on.
Boy, was I ever wrong!
Lesson learned

slickwilly · #59 03-05-2016, 05:57 PM

I read through the old thread on the topic, and I have one thing I am still curious about:

Does anyone know how they got busted in the first place? Someone in camp told F&W? Or another hunter stumbled across it and reported it?

Those are the only two options I can think of.

Not looking for details or names, just curious if anyone can fill in a few general details.

Torkdiesel · #60 03-05-2016, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by slickwilly

I read through the old thread on the topic, and I have one thing I am still curious about:

Does anyone know how they got busted in the first place? Someone in camp told F&W? Or another hunter stumbled across it and reported it?

Those are the only two options I can think of.

Not looking for details or names, just curious if anyone can fill in a few general details.

The outfitter that owns the sheep allocations in the zone they killed the short ram watched them do it.