Alberta Separation from Canada

[amosfella]

Originally Posted by markg

When you have nothing left to loose whats the worst that could happen? How would no longer being part of Canada negatively affect us any worse than what we are currently experiencing?

WE ALBERTANS ARE MORE OF A DISTINCT SOCIETY THAN QUEBEC.

1) Firearms policy
2) Approach to work and unemployment
3) Justice (crime and punishment)
4) Climate
5) Family Values

Convince me that my values on these topics are part of the majority opinion held by Canadians. Why would I want to be part of a country that doesnt care about the things I believe are most fundemental to being a human being.

Economics
I think there are well in excess of $20 Billion reasons to become our own nation. We could remain our own nation or become a protectorate of the USA like Puerto Rico our Guam. This solves the currency issue and the passport and international travel issues. Things have worked out pretty well for a Nation like Norway, imagine how wealthy the nation of Alberta could be if we controlled our own destiny?

I am pretty sure the USA would like to have the worlds 3rd largest oil reserves under there protection. It also makes the issue of access to tide water a non issue as we can ship our product via Texas or build a new pipeline to Seattle or elsewhere along the west coast.

It just makes sense.
That being said if Canada gets its collective head out of its socialist butt I would have no problem remaining. We would need to have firewalls in place though so this never happens again. Transfer payments need to become a thing of the past. We need the firewall items previously listed in place. Then I would be alright staying.

I love ALBERTA
I like Canada because Alberta is part of it.

This is what I've been saying. Also I'm told that being a protectorate of the US would give us completely free trade with the US and grandfather us into their trade deals. To be clear, I don't want to actually join the US.

[amosfella]

Originally Posted by ssyd

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/jas...ents-1.5334164
I read this article today that explained it pretty well.

It's essentially calculated on each province's "capacity" to earn as opposed to actual earnings. The last time these capacities were recalculated was 2009, pretty much the height of the oil boom.

Plus it sounds like we're pretty much SOL on opting out because it's written into the constitution which would require 2/3 of the provinces to vote in favour of abolishing it.

As much as I agree with jstubbs that there is little to be gained from separation talk, I could see this being a large contributor to making it happen. No way we get that kind of support for abolishing equalization.

The notwithstanding clause could be used.

[Bigwoodsman]

Originally Posted by jungleboy

This ^^^ . is what we should be working toward, equal representation. Without that we will always be the battered spouse in this relationship.

Ottawa will never concede seats in Quebec or Ontario. It’s the only way they can guarantee a victory Election Day. The rest of the country really doesn’t matter. Throw some pogey at the maritimes it’s over before the west has finished voting.

Time to hie our own rows!

BW

[riden]

Originally Posted by amosfella

The notwithstanding clause could be used.

I don't see anyway how?

[Ken07AOVette]

Originally Posted by Dean2

So tell me again how an area like Alberta, Saskatchewan and Western B.C./, with a highly educated population, huge natural resources and well developed economies could not accomplish what Namibia and Serbia managed to do.

They do not miss what they did not have?

[Ken07AOVette]

The only way I see it working is the USA walking North and making the 4 provinces the 51st state.
It would negate EVERYTHING that is wrong with Canada right now, but open up a massive new can of bad for us too I think.
The only fix right now is stopping ridiculous equalization and antiquated payments.

[riden]

Originally Posted by CasterBlaster

I think a much more viable solution is a balancing out of federal seats so that the west has more say. Something inherently wrong with there being more federal seats in the GTA than in the entirety of Alberta. A city and it's boroughs can decide the fate of the country? Same goes for PQ, 78 seats compared to our paltry 34. An MP in PQ has an average of 106,000 constituents, an MP in Alberta has on average 134,000 constituents. 28,000 souls in difference. Balance it out, dont create more ridings, redistribute them accordingly to population. We'd then be far better off than separating.

The thing is, these seats were just re-drawn in the last decade and weren't that far off when complete. We just pay for being the fastest growing population.


The reality is, you can completely re draw the allocations and ensure to error on our side and it won't do a darn thing.

Alberta 4.3 mill
Sask 1.2 mill
Man 1.4 mill


Que 8.5 mill
Ont 14.5 mill


The truth is, in a democracy we are all equal and I just don't think a solution for this problem exists. Ont and Que are more than 3 times the population of AB, Sask and Man and will always have 3 times the seats.

That's why I am as open to separation as I am.

[riden]

Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette

The only way I see it working is the USA walking North and making the 4 provinces the 51st state.
It would negate EVERYTHING that is wrong with Canada right now, but open up a massive new can of bad for us too I think.
The only fix right now is stopping ridiculous equalization and antiquated payments.

Do you really think BC wants anything to do with this? I say pretty much zero chance of BC joining us. With all the equalization rhetoric, why would Manitoba join?

I know a lot of Alberta separatists think BC will join, but not me.

[Wrongside]

Originally Posted by sns2

I would be all for it. The last four years have made it hard for me to feel truly Canadian, as the rest of Canada seemingly uses us like arse wipe - utterly disposable. I self-identify as Albertan, and am even considering not standing for the anthem. They ain't my words, and I no longer feel like part of this country if I am being transparent.

Let's see if Kenney has the privates to hold the referendum he campaigned on. Albertans need an outlet to show the rest of the provinces that cash our cheques that we have had it utterly and completely.

If Quebec can get a better deal out of this type of exercise, so can we.

Agreed. It's past time.

[Bluedog]

An agreement between the western provinces and FN including the rewriting and modernizing of the Indian act would be good first start!
Bluedog

[Ken07AOVette]

Originally Posted by riden

Do you really think BC wants anything to do with this? I say pretty much zero chance of BC joining us. With all the equalization rhetoric, why would Manitoba join?

I know a lot of Alberta separatists think BC will join, but not me.

H'couver would never because they have everything they need right on the water, but I hear from BC residents all the time they are dreading another Lib regime.

Honestly I said Personitoba because we have members there, I have friends there, and they seem to want to split.

And of course there will not be a split.

[jungleboy]

Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette

The only way I see it working is the USA walking North and making the 4 provinces the 51st state.
It would negate EVERYTHING that is wrong with Canada right now, but open up a massive new can of bad for us too I think.
The only fix right now is stopping ridiculous equalization and antiquated payments.

I agree with you on the 51st state thing ,but at the same time it would make it impossible for me and my wife to stay in Alberta. At 57 with my health record I could not afford to live in a country without healthcare .It would be back to Canada for me.

[EZM]

Separation is not practical, ...... there are some serious hurtles to address in a comprehensive, intelligent and realistic plan ..... which I don't see on the Wexit website. In fact, it's poorly written ..... It reads like a list of grievances and wishes.

I think our energy needs to be put toward addressing and litigating our key issues with the federal government - equalization, oil/energy development, pipeline support, etc...

If that doesn't go well, then there's plan B, and hopefully some leadership with an intelligent, realistic option for us to seriously consider.

[Ken07AOVette]

Originally Posted by jungleboy

I agree with you on the 51st state thing ,but at the same time it would make it impossible for me and my wife to stay in Alberta. At 57 with my health record I could not afford to live in a country without healthcare .It would be back to Canada for me.

And that right there creates another million and a half problems. Even if there is a separation, what insurance company is going to pay health care in the newly formed land of milk and honey?

Far too many people live by sparkly socks' words; it will work itself out.

It really won't.

I wish there were a simple answer to deal with our Eastern dictator, but there isn't.

[jungleboy]

Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette

And that right there creates another million and a half problems. Even if there is a separation, what insurance company is going to pay health care in the newly formed land of milk and honey?

Far too many people live by sparkly socks' words; it will work itself out.

It really won't.

I wish there were a simple answer to deal with our Eastern dictator, but there isn't.

ahem I needa go lay down

[CaberTosser]

Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette

The only way I see it working is the USA walking North and making the 4 provinces the 51st state.
It would negate EVERYTHING that is wrong with Canada right now, but open up a massive new can of bad for us too I think.
The only fix right now is stopping ridiculous equalization and antiquated payments.

If this were to happen, then how would they work the rule about the President having to be born in the USA? If someone was born in Sask in 1978 would they qualify to run for President if Sask was technically part of the USA at that point? I like the myriad of mental exercises that these suggestions bring to mind.

[CaberTosser]

Originally Posted by Bluedog

An agreement between the western provinces and FN including the rewriting and modernizing of the Indian act would be good first start!
Bluedog

More like un-writing it. Everyone is equal, period. And legislation should reflect that with zero loopholes. Its the best solution for them to have any kind of a viable future, clearly the current system is not working and never will.

[jungleboy]

Forget about Alberta separating , it's not worth the fight . If you truly want to make Canada great again start campaigning for the BQ and help them achieve their dream of a free and independent Quebec

[Twisted Canuck]

Start with a referendum on separation. I'd vote in favor. If there is a majority support, then that is democracy at work. As opposed to the tyranny of the current 'democratic' system that was so clearly illustrated once again in our most recent 'federal' election.

All the impossible details....are just details. All it takes is a will to find a way.

Or, we can just keep rolling over for the Enlightened Elite Eastern rulers, who know what is best for us....

A referendum on separation, that's the place to start.

[jungleboy]

Assuming Alberta separates , what then? What if Calgary get's sick of Edmonton always voting "progressive" does Calgary decide to separate from the rest of Alberta? just spitballin

[roper1]

Couple things about the US I saw,
The individual States & citizens are often semi-autonomous, Federal & State law so separate.
One governor, two senators for each & every state, regardless of population.
Four separate Fed gov branches; Pres, Congress, Senate, Supreme Court
Proportional representation covered by electoral districts & the electoral college.
Almost forgot, every State has their own police force as well
Elected DA's & Sheriffs in lots of states

Maybe our American members here can weigh in on their political system, I think it's the best there is.

I think Alberta would make a fine 51st State.

[KC1]

Originally Posted by riden

Do you really think BC wants anything to do with this? I say pretty much zero chance of BC joining us. With all the equalization rhetoric, why would Manitoba join?

I know a lot of Alberta separatists think BC will join, but not me.

Northern BC yes
Kootenays and Okanagan yes
Lower Mainland probably
Surrey, Vancouver we don't want them
Vancouver Island according to Harper that's a good place for the FN (anyone has the link to interview with Harper after the last election?).

[Ken07AOVette]

Originally Posted by jungleboy

Assuming Alberta separates , what then? What if Calgary get's sick of Edmonton always voting "progressive" does Calgary decide to separate from the rest of Alberta? just spitballin

That's enough out of you young man. Time for a nap

[markg]

Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck

Start with a referendum on separation. I'd vote in favor. If there is a majority support, then that is democracy at work. As opposed to the tyranny of the current 'democratic' system that was so clearly illustrated once again in our most recent 'federal' election.

All the impossible details....are just details. All it takes is a will to find a way.

Or, we can just keep rolling over for the Enlightened Elite Eastern rulers, who know what is best for us....

A referendum on separation, that's the place to start.

I couldnt agree more. Let the people speak. If Albertans vote against it then fine we need to stop complaining. If we vote for then lets make Alberta one of the greatest countries on the planet to live in!!!

Health Care concerns, well all the additional money from transfer payments remaining in the province would go a long way to better health care.

Add to this the federal tax revenue paid by corporations operating in Alberta staying in Alberta.

Think of Norway and that society. That country is very well off and we have much more oil then they do.

I think we could make something incredibly special. The rest of the world is shifting to the left. We could move to the right (more freedom less tax) and could show the world what system is better.
I was thinking about this relative to the rest of the world. I pondered where i could go, what country or society best reflected my worldview. There wasnt any place that jumped out at me, no undiscovered country.

Alberta could be that place. The best and brightest from around the world could flock to our nation for freedom liberty and prosperity.

Or we could just sit around complain and hope for some scraps from our PM who is openly hostile to the way we want to live our lives.

The choice is yours.

[jungleboy]

Originally Posted by Ken07AOVette

That's enough out of you young man. Time for a nap

truth

[markg]

The fact that Albertans by and large arent socialists makes us a disctinct society within Canada.

[Twisted Canuck]

Originally Posted by markg

I couldnt agree more. Let the people speak. If Albertans vote against it then fine we need to stop complaining. If we vote for then lets make Alberta one of the greatest countries on the planet to live in!!!

Health Care concerns, well all the additional money from transfer payments remaining in the province would go a long way to better health care.

Add to this the federal tax revenue paid by corporations operating in Alberta staying in Alberta.

Think of Norway and that society. That country is very well off and we have much more oil then they do.

I think we could make something incredibly special. The rest of the world is shifting to the left. We could move to the right (more freedom less tax) and could show the world what system is better.
I was thinking about this relative to the rest of the world. I pondered where i could go, what country or society best reflected my worldview. There wasnt any place that jumped out at me, no undiscovered country.

Alberta could be that place. The best and brightest from around the world could flock to our nation for freedom liberty and prosperity.

Or we could just sit around complain and hope for some scraps from our PM who is openly hostile to the way we want to live our lives.

The choice is yours.

Well said. We looked at moving to USA, actually approved for permanent residence pending medical and background check, and interviews. The hard part is done. And then realized that it's not really what we want to do, we were just frustrated.

Better to do as you so succinctly outline. Any problems can be worked.

[markg]

I got to thinking tonight. I started to ask myself what if?

What if Alberta as an independant nation approached investment and taxation like the Cayman Islands? Imagine the combination of capital and investment moving here like it moves to Cayman with the industrial might of our Oil Sector? What sort of highly professional and high paying work would be available to our citizens and future children? Want to work with your hands, no problem you have the Oil Patch. Want to work with your mind work in the financial sector.

Think about risk adversity with doing business on a secluded Island in the middle of the ocean. Imagine having the same benefits tax wise but with a terrestial connection to all the data and technology infrastructure of North America. Add to that a stable culture and law abiding society.

Alberta could become such a financial and Industrial powerhouse the likes of which have never been seen.

[KegRiver]

I don't pretend to know what the future holds. It could happen is as far as I would go.

I would vote for separation if it ever came to that. How others would vote I do not know.

The way I see it, we get a far better deal from our US trade then we do from trade with Eastern Canada. Plus we have lot more in common with the western US then we do with Eastern Canada.
I say that even though most of my blood relatives live East of Toronto.

I would hate to see it happen but we can't go on this way indefinitely.
Sooner or later something has to change.

We have to consider, what happens if we run out of oil. There can be no doubt, the east will NOT come to our rescue. We would not get any more in transfer payments then we do now.
That would leave us in a desperate situation, from which there could be only one way out, begin talks with our US partners. They are our best hope, now, and if we do ever run out of oil.

I wonder, how many know that as it is now, western airspace is patrolled by the US air-force. They are watching out for us now. Onterrible and Keebeck do nothing but take from us. and offer less then fair compensation for our raw materials.

Have a look at the labels of the products you buy. Even when the raw materials come from the west, 99 percent or more of finished products are manufactured or sold through Ontario and Quebec.

Some eastern companies have shell offices out west, but the jobs and the money stays in the east.

[midgetwaiter]

Originally Posted by riden

T
The truth is, in a democracy we are all equal and I just don't think a solution for this problem exists. Ont and Que are more than 3 times the population of AB, Sask and Man and will always have 3 times the seats.

How about we fix the Senate? Thats what the bloody thing is supposed to do anyway. I remember Byfield's Triple E proposals from when I was a kid, not sure how i feel about the elected part but just give each province 10 seats and boom, fixed.