No off highway vehicales!!

[Waxy]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

Go to another province, either neighbor, be it B.C. or Saskatchewan. They do not have the problems we have here.

All provinces are dealing with booming OHV use, it's not an AB only phenomenon, in fact, it's FAR from it. B.C. is facing nearly identical issues to AB, and going in much the same direction with increased restrictions and enforcement. It's an issue being dealt with in SK too, I've seen it first hand. ONT and QUE are fully embracing them, spending millions on trail networks and aggressively encouraging OHV tourism.

People want what they want when they want it, and they desire to be able to do anything they want to do. It has to change. Ban them on the eastern slopes, ban them on the prairies, and ban them anywhere else severe damage might result from their irresponsible use, and get on with life. Theres no reason on this earth why the phrase,"we have to make room for these outdoor enthusiasts to enjoy it in their way too", has to apply to something as fragile as many of our public lands. How do people think folks from the not so distant past managed to get around??? Thats a serious question too. If in the end you have to hike in for 2 days to hunt, so be it. If you cant get to where the horse outfits are getting, so be it. If ya dont like it, buy horses. People need to think about the next generations and most importantly the idea of CONSERVATION, you know that word and its use also has to apply to habitats and the smaller unseen creatures and insects as well guys.

I swore I wasn't going to respond to this thread, but I had to after this -

LOL. We're talking about OHVs here packhunter, not nuclear war.

Left untouched for 20-30 years, you'd hardly know there'd been OHVs in any of these places. Just look around at all the logging activity from the last 100 years and the scars that left behind, can you see it today? OHV use isn't going to destroy AB for the next generation, that's pretty absurd.

I think we all agree that OHVs need to be regulated, but let's be realistic here about the true extent of the impact and that impact relative to all the other impacts currently happening in AB. The fact of the matter is that very little of the province is open to OHV use, and there are plenty of regulations already in place that simply need enforcing. The OHV community is well aware that they need to change, and that change is coming, they are working proactively with SRD. There IS a time and place for everyone in AB. I for one hope that the next generation, my kids, will have the ability to get out into the beautiful outdoors of AB on dirt bikes or quads the way I'm able to.

Just remember, there are A LOT of people who would say this exact thing to you while they're trying to ban the activity that you dearly love -

Theres no reason on this earth why the phrase,"we have to make room for these outdoor enthusiasts to enjoy it in their way too", has to apply to something as fragile as many of our public lands.

Waxy

[Cal]

When I was a young kid 1 or 2 miles off the road was a long way into the bush, and for most hunting that was plenty far enough. The blessing of ATVs came allong and we could now go ten times that far into the bush if wanted... Now in alot of places it seems like you almost have to go a very long ways to find your moose. For hunters I dont realy think ATVs have realy got us any further ahead. Nowdays we're spending 10 grand just to try and keep up with the rest of the crowd, and the hunting back there is realy no better any more than it used to be a less than a couple miles in.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Cal

When I was a young kid 1 or 2 miles off the road was a long way into the bush, and for most hunting that was plenty far enough. The blessing of ATVs came allong and we could now go ten times that far into the bush if wanted... Now in alot of places it seems like you almost have to go a very long ways to find your moose. For hunters I dont realy think ATVs have realy got us any further ahead. Nowdays we're spending 10 grand just to try and keep up with the rest of the crowd, and the hunting back there is realy no better any more than it used to be a less than a couple miles in.

When I was growing up and getting out into the outdoors you went everywhere in a 4 wheel drive pick up with a winch. Now most of them trails are non existant to the point that even an atv cant go down them. Did these activities damage the country forever? NO. Look at places like the blackstone gap area that used to have a road running though into oil rigs. And now the road is gone and only visable in a select few places. Did this damage the country? No.

Will atvs ruin the country forever? No The biggest issue is that the different outdoor users just cant get along and each one wants it all to themselves. If you wanna hike and see no quads, get off the trails that they ride on. I can go hunting, hiking horesback riding in quad country and never see a quad. But if im going down a quad trail I expect to see them.

[Huntingonthebrain]

My original comment was that they were closing more and more trails to off highway vehicles.
People are talking as if the end of the world is coming from atv's.
We are human. WE Human's move forward with technology. Henry Ford built the first car and motorized the human race. The world is now full of roads as well as all type of machine. The world is still here!
You can't stop change and with technology growing so fast, machines will only get better and better! With google earth we can plan our hunting trips. With our Truck we can drive there. And with our atv we can go in after it and get it out!!!
Get with the times people. The answer lies with our past as this isn't our first problem with nature vs. man (technology). I could say if you drive to your hunting spot you are creating emissions and global warming. I could say the smokes your smoking while hunting is leading to hospitalization which makes my taxes go up.
You get the picture!!
People are the problem. So let people be people and watch yourself as your no better!

[packhuntr]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

When I was growing up and getting out into the outdoors you went everywhere in a 4 wheel drive pick up with a winch. Now most of them trails are non existant to the point that even an atv cant go down them. Did these activities damage the country forever? NO. Look at places like the blackstone gap area that used to have a road running though into oil rigs. And now the road is gone and only visable in a select few places. Did this damage the country? No.

Will atvs ruin the country forever? No The biggest issue is that the different outdoor users just cant get along and each one wants it all to themselves. If you wanna hike and see no quads, get off the trails that they ride on. I can go hunting, hiking horesback riding in quad country and never see a quad. But if im going down a quad trail I expect to see them.

I dont think you have been looking around very hard, to have an opinion as firmly based on b.s. as that Waxy and Sheepguide. The damage is forever lasting. Come on out into this country for a day. I will show you some things that will make you one sad dude. I work year round fighting quadders and dirt bikers out where I work. Between parks staff, the lease rider, the EID and myself, there are only 2 people here nearly 365 days a year, that would be me and the lease rider. You wanna know how ugly things have got trying to protect this small peice of habitat here. You wanna see what real destruction looks like. I can show you. This is merely a very small peice of land in a very big picture. There is a province chock full of frail habitats that are being sh*t kicked by machine heads for no apparent reason other than an afternoon joy ride. There are consequences to thoughtless actions. In the end, it is hit hard here because there are afew people that care. None of my co-workers care, the neighbor doesnt care, my relatives dont care, and its obvious that you dont care. I guess you think its some foreign reason why we as outdoors folks nearly lost all land access privaleges from the largest private land owner in the province. I could go on and on here, if you want we could blow any argument so completely out of the water on this that it would not even be funny. There are reasons, and a WHOLE LOT OF THEM why changes NEED TO HAPPEN, hopefully sooner than later.

[Cal]

Sure the damage is not permanent but untill it stops getting tore up every weekend its not even going to get a chance to start healing. Those roads you are talking about were reclaimed because people quit using them.

[bessiedog]

Welll... the last few posts pretty much wraps it up I think.

ATV/OHVs wreck sensitive areas...... established researched factby SRD on elk herds and habitat.

HuntingBrain.... Your original post shows how you use OHVs for scouting..... for animals.... bad reason to use an OHV in my opinion. Your later posts sure reek of backpeddling. I really do hope you have changed your mind on when to use one. That'd of made this discussion soooo worth it. I think you'll find hunting much more rewarding.

I think the biggest point made here to wrap things up is that it is really sad when you can't get good defence arguments for quads in the bush on a hunting forum.

A big part of hunting is the physical exertion. It is a big part.... very very rewarding. We should all try it more.

[ctd]

You guys against ATV usage are right. We should shut down the trail system to all off road vehicle usage. I am not being a smart donkey either. The destruction caused is for the most part on purpose. What little maintance that there is is to little to late.

I also advocate that we close down access to lease roads for non oil field and Logging operations. This will have a dramitic impact of back country damage caused by those who deciede to abuse it. Then they can start to deactivate roads less travelled.
BC has been doing this for years, reclaiming old logging roads. It is a pain in the butt for the users of those roads but most of them are recreational anyways. Eventually the areas are back to normal.

Unfortunatly for the majority of back country users who use those same roads, they will have to find another way into the back country. Fines for getting caught riding in those areas will be extremely stiff.

The next step will be for the goverment to create areas where ATV only travel is allowed. Creat 4 or 5 major areas and charge a small fee of $35 year for membership. Have enforcement people patrolling those areas checking for Insurance and registration. A few times a year have major trail maintance carried out by inmates. This way we pay nect to nothing for it.

Further into this I think we should be looking at limiting Horse travel in the back country. They should also get their own areas specifically to ride.

Farmers will be effected also by limiting how close their livestock can venture to rivers, creeks lakes and other surface water sources. This will minimize the effects they have on the systems. They will also have to not spray any chemicles in the near future unless they can garentee that residue will not flow into any watersheds.

All in all it seems a bit harsh, but in the long run it will be for the better for us all.

Those of you who want to argue the merrits of restricting Farmers we can also restirct all other industrys.

[sheepguide]

well I guess packhunter is the expert on this topic. But the affects are felt differently in different areas. The prairie gr***** are affected different than the areas that I travel. We see thousands of atv'ers west of my place every weekend and the trails are some tore up by the end of fall but by the start of summer the next year alot of trails are all grass covered again. The areas do not need to be closed just designate trails and put up big fines. Run a trail pass program as on the ski doo trails in B.C and use the money for trail up keep. Ya I know the argument here. No one wants to pay for trail p*****. Well if you can afford a quad and a truck to get it there a couple hundred bucks a year isnt going to break you. Maybe we should just close the public land to everyone. Seems the only way that everyone is affected the same.

[packhuntr]

Wow. I am having a hard time with this one. So that west country is completely resilient to the ecological wreck that ensues every summer. That would be the first time Ive ever heard that SG. BTW, Im no xpert, just spent my life farming, ranching, hunting and fishing. No where did I obtain an environmental sciences degree. I gotta wonder though, how can folks live their lives around or near the outdoors and have no clue about human impact on habitat and the wildlife it contains.

[Cal]

I agree that different regions are affected differently. Up here some places are so soft that even trying to drive out the same trail you drove in on when your the only ATV thats been there in weeks can be a challenge. In this kind of environment it takes very few quads to do alot of damage, and I dont know anyone fool enough to try and take a 4x4 there. Should go back to the old 12hp 200lb trikes, Still got one of those kicking around and those big balloon tires sometimes leave less of a trail than my hunting boots.

[ovis40]

So what is the fine if you get caught in a FLUZone? I know that several years ago while I was guiding in the Bighorn area I was shocked to see how well the cutline headed north into George Ck. was used. I asked the outfitter what the hell that was all about and he said (at that time) it's only a $50 fine and how often do you see anyone around to inforce it. They (Quads) don't give a s**t and go anyway.
Last fall a friend of mine and his son went up by Onion Lake area. They had parked thier quad at the start of a valley that they wanted to hunt which was the end of the legal trail. They had just started to hike when they heard a quad coming. This jerk just cruises by them and heads on up the valley!
Last week I was going by Saunders on #11 and I see about 20 quads cross the road and stop. It was nice and sunny, dust flying and they were all decked out in rain gear...and covered with mud. Not hard to imagine what they were up to!!
Problem is to many people don't give a S**T

[Waxy]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

I dont think you have been looking around very hard, to have an opinion as firmly based on b.s. as that Waxy and Sheepguide. The damage is forever lasting. Come on out into this country for a day. I will show you some things that will make you one sad dude. I work year round fighting quadders and dirt bikers out where I work. Between parks staff, the lease rider, the EID and myself, there are only 2 people here nearly 365 days a year, that would be me and the lease rider. You wanna know how ugly things have got trying to protect this small peice of habitat here. You wanna see what real destruction looks like. I can show you. This is merely a very small peice of land in a very big picture. There is a province chock full of frail habitats that are being sh*t kicked by machine heads for no apparent reason other than an afternoon joy ride. There are consequences to thoughtless actions. In the end, it is hit hard here because there are afew people that care. None of my co-workers care, the neighbor doesnt care, my relatives dont care, and its obvious that you dont care. I guess you think its some foreign reason why we as outdoors folks nearly lost all land access privaleges from the largest private land owner in the province. I could go on and on here, if you want we could blow any argument so completely out of the water on this that it would not even be funny. There are reasons, and a WHOLE LOT OF THEM why changes NEED TO HAPPEN, hopefully sooner than later.

Simply put packhunter, you lose credibility with me when you start talking in such absolutes and grandiose hyperbole. You've clearly convinced yourself, but you haven't begun to convince me. Furthermore, don't tell me what I think, or presume to know where I stand on enviromental damage. You have NO IDEA.

I do know this though, there really are no absolutes when it comes to nature, 50-100 years is irrelevent on it's time scale. I've seen it first hand - very fragile native prairie valley sides back in SK torn to shreds in the late 80's, it was sickening to see, and like you, I thought it would never heal. Without someone to point it out to you and carefully walking those areas today, you'd never know they'd been touched, and that is one the most susceptible environmental areas to damage I can think of. The fact that nature is incredible at healing itself is by no means an excuse to damage or abuse it, but being realistic about the situation doesn't mean people don't care or are ignorant of the facts.

I have no idea where you work or what you do. I assume you're cooperating with the RCMP and SRD to help solve your problem. I'm surprised that with their help you haven't had any success in curbing what you describe as continous abuse.

It sounds like your issues in dealing with people on OHVs there have definitely soured you on all OHV use. That's unfortunate, because not all users are machine heads bent on wanton destruction. Why don't you come out to the next RMDRA get together and trail work day? We're putting in multiple bridges and fence crossings in Maclean Creek, as well as a lot of general trail remediation and signing. They're fun days, hard work, but fun, with lots of great people in a family friendly environment. It just might change your views on the OHV community, or dirt bike riders at the least.

Waxy

[Huntingonthebrain]

Originally Posted by bessiedog

HuntingBrain.... Your original post shows how you use OHVs for scouting..... for animals.... bad reason to use an OHV in my opinion. Your later posts sure reek of backpeddling. I really do hope you have changed your mind on when to use one. That'd of made this discussion soooo worth it. I think you'll find hunting much more rewarding.

I see the good will that most of your are trying to point out. But I think some of the suggestions are crazy!
You are trying to turn our public land into parkland. "Sure just throw your rights away and let the government charge fee's and block access!"
Hunting is a right just like quadding is a right. Both have to be used however with respect.
I'm not backpeddling either. When I say 'scouting' i'm not scouting for just animals, but area. Also I did say that I quad, just that I don't rip around like the sports quads and dirtbikes. Also I find any forum of hunting rewarding.

I'm not looking for support so people to tear up the land. I'm looking for support for access to the land to mostly retrieve my game. That is what I sent to as my letter to the government. Here is a copy:

To whom it my concern,
I am an ATV (all terrain vehicle) owner and avid hunter. I recently got back from an ATV ride in the 'Castle Mountain' area and noticed more and more "NO OFF HIGHWAY VEHICLES" sighs popping up on all the major and minor trails.

This poses a problem when you’re a hunter. It wouldn't be as hard to park at the sign and walk in, but when you have a 1500 lbs moose down it changes things when you have to retrieve it!
On behalf of myself and many others like me, please re-consider the limitations the signs entail.
I understand the signs are in place to limit erosion and promote growth. However, this land is there for public use, and is NOT a park. Parkland and wildlife reserves are all over the province, specifically set aside for wildlife and plants. Please DON'T make the forestry reserve into a place where we have no or limited access.

Thank you for your time. Please feel free to respond to this email.

[packhuntr]

I have no doubt about you being correct on how much good these associations are doing Waxy. Progress is awesome, but its what is required, its not a choice. Im not an extremist and im not anti machine, I use one for a certain spring hunt situation. They work wonderfully where they are required, though Im not sure they should be used for recreation outside a track environment. Once again, im no activist, nor am I a hipocrite. So this is what I see. There were 13 thousand years of human habitation ion the N.A. continent (native peoples). We can at any place and any time look around us in Alberta and see almost no indications that they were here, despite there being evidence everywhere in the province. Fast foreward to 200 years ago. What you see is what you get. There is evidence of our occupation EVERYWHERE, and it is not going to go away. In the scheme of conservation, a word coined daily by all who spend time outdoors, is becoming more important by the day. We arent trying to develop these wild places for the animals theyve sustained for thousands of years, we are trying to CONSERVE them for the future while conserving the animals they contain through hunting. Does it make sence to minimize our footprint on the landscape when talking about recreational and conservation activities. I would think. And about the land repairing its self like you stated Saskatchewan dirt is capable of doing. Im not sure what type of soils you had there in that situation, but Ive never seen anything like that in my life. The kind of damage we are talking about here, what has become the norm across the province, changes the landscape forever. You own a camera?? Would you like to see some wagon trails. These arent features created in 1980, they were created pre 1880 Waxy. Its now historical damage, its wonderful to see, its part of progress, it was required. Destroying wild places with machines for a seconds fun is not required, and it should be frowned upon. In the future what will the kids say?? Oh, isnt that great guys look, grandpa and his friends did that. Had they built something great for all to enjoy or helped build in the name of progress. Nope, they sh*t kicked Albertas future generations birth right for something to do.

[altaberg]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

well I guess packhunter is the expert on this topic. But the affects are felt differently in different areas. The prairie gr***** are affected different than the areas that I travel. We see thousands of atv'ers west of my place every weekend and the trails are some tore up by the end of fall but by the start of summer the next year alot of trails are all grass covered again. The areas do not need to be closed just designate trails and put up big fines. Run a trail pass program as on the ski doo trails in B.C and use the money for trail up keep. Ya I know the argument here. No one wants to pay for trail p*****. Well if you can afford a quad and a truck to get it there a couple hundred bucks a year isnt going to break you. Maybe we should just close the public land to everyone. Seems the only way that everyone is affected the same.

having a bit of grass covering the tracks doesn't mean the area is restored or recovered. Yes different areas are differently effected but the foothills and mountains are the worst. In some places there are quad trails up mountains above treeline. Do you know how long anything takes to grow above treeline?

All activities have some impact. Part of that is just the numbers and how it' s managed. A lot of hunters on foot and hikers will have an impact too, so do horses. Two big differences: there is a lot more impact from OHVs, it doesn't need a large number to destroy trails, meadows, watersheds and secondly I've seen an increasing number of OHVers being completely irresponsible.
The completely ignore signs or closures and barriers of any kind are torn down. You don't see a lot of hikers do that and the horse guys I see in the foothills are generally very responsible too. I had to come to the conclusion in the last few years that the majority of OHVers are not.

[Cal]

I realise theres got to be a ballance but just because its not parkland doesnt mean we sould be allowed to mess it up. We're hunters here for cryin out lound, not politicians. One thing that does bug me is that if I am not allowed to shoot a deer or moose in a park or use an OHV for fear of messing it up how come the industry can build pipelines and roads on park land? How come i see pumpjacks and pads back in there? I dont mind not hunting in parks so that they can be kept pristine but it doesnt even seem like thats the objective.

I remember driving up the road to the sulpher gates entrance to Willmore last summer and seeing a sign that read somthing to the effect of "Only logging vehicals allowed past this point" I didnt see any logging going on so I'm not sure what the sign meant but it pretty much summed up the Alberta govornment's idea of conservation.

Yes I know that cracking down on ATVs is not going to make every thing better but its a start. People will argue the cons of bio diesel, wind farms, and solar power and any other alternative that comes along. But we have created a complicated problem that there is no one easy answere to, scientists are not going to suddenly come up with a majical solution to bail us out, and even if they did we'd probably find some flaw in the plan and shoot it down. The only thing we can do is start chiseling away at it with all the little things and thats how its going to improve. We as outdoorsmen should be willing to take the first steps. Packing moose out on my back and limiting my hunting range to within hiking/ paddling distance can be hard but I do it in an attempt to improve what I can. And at the end of the hunt its completely worth all the work, I get way more satisfaction out of the way I conduct my hunting now than the more regular methods I used to use.

[tbosch]

Respectful ATV riding doesn't bother me whatsoever. The grass grows back.

Dough heads that drive up and down valuable spawning beds to clean their undercarriages out bother me. I had to lay the law down to my own father in law this spring because he pulled one of these stunts and he's 52 years old. I though he would have know better but I guess not.

[Waxy]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

I have no doubt about you being correct on how much good these associations are doing Waxy. Progress is awesome, but its what is required, its not a choice.

I completely agree.

Im not an extremist and im not anti machine. I use one for a certain spring hunt situation. They work wonderfully where they are required, though Im not sure they should be used for recreation outside a track environment. Once again, im no activist, nor am I a hipocrite.

Actually, this very statement is hypocritical. Hunting is recreation...

The fact is, what you've stated in the last couple threads is in fact extremist and anti-machine. I won't go back and quote, but any time you're talking about outright bans or using derogatory terms for any and all OHV userss, that is EXACTLY what you've done.

And about the land repairing its self like you stated Saskatchewan dirt is capable of doing. Im not sure what type of soils you had there in that situation, but Ive never seen anything like that in my life.

Maybe you just haven't had the chance.

These were valley sides along the Qu'Appelle Valley, about as poor a quality clay and stone soil as you'll find anywhere.

There's still plenty of scarred terrain in areas, it is fragile, and any continued use really sets back the regrowth, but it is possible, and within surprising short periods of time.

So this is what I see. There were 13 thousand years of human habitation ion the N.A. continent (native peoples). We can at any place and any time look around us in Alberta and see almost no indications that they were here, despite there being evidence everywhere in the province. Fast foreward to 200 years ago. What you see is what you get. There is evidence of our occupation EVERYWHERE, and it is not going to go away. In the scheme of conservation, a word coined daily by all who spend time outdoors, is becoming more important by the day. We arent trying to develop these wild places for the animals theyve sustained for thousands of years, we are trying to CONSERVE them for the future while conserving the animals they contain through hunting. Does it make sence to minimize our footprint on the landscape when talking about recreational and conservation activities. I would think. The kind of damage we are talking about here, what has become the norm across the province, changes the landscape forever. You own a camera?? Would you like to see some wagon trails. These arent features created in 1980, they were created pre 1880 Waxy. Its now historical damage, its wonderful to see, its part of progress, it was required. Destroying wild places with machines for a seconds fun is not required, and it should be frowned upon. In the future what will the kids say?? Oh, isnt that great guys look, grandpa and his friends did that. Had they built something great for all to enjoy or helped build in the name of progress. Nope, they sh*t kicked Albertas future generations birth right for something to do.

Just to be clear, there is no excuse to wanton damage of the environment, I completely agree with that, however, for the sake of argument -

These wagon trails - is the habitat around them negatively affected today? I think we can both agree that the scene was likely FAR worse than a couple of grooves in the soil at the time, so, other than those couple of grooves in the soil remaining today, what's the overall impact? Are those grooves a big deal as far as the wildlife in the area is concerned? What's the lasting impact of that trail?

Nature doesn't really care if there are some tracks or grooves in the ground, it simply gets absorbed into the current natural environment and life goes on. I'm guessing my grandkids and their kids will be far more amazed by the fact we were able to ride around on fossil fuel burning vehicles for fun than the fact that there are some tracks left on the ground lol.

The second thing I'd point out is this - the FLUZ zone is set aside for public and industry use. It is not now, and never was, intended to be a zero impact nature preserve. That's why we have a vast system of parks and wildlands. The idea is to strike a balance between industry/recreation and conservation. The scale is currently tipped too far one way, but there's a lot of work being done to restore that balance. It's my opinion that the balance should be maintained, and that there should be an opportunity for the public to use public lands. There are plenty of acres of untouched wilderness out there being preserved, and there should probably be some more, but again, it's a balance.

Just for interests sake, and because it applies beautifully here, keep your eyes open for a show on History or Discovery channel, I can't remember which, and unfortunately, I can't remember the exact title of the show, but it dealt with exactly this. What would be left of human society if humans ceased to exist tomorrow? It was a little melodramatic, but a pretty fascinating show. Essentially, most of our impact would be gone within 100 years, only the concrete and steel of cities and major infrastructure would remain longer, and even that would be largely gone in 200 years. They had some fascinating footage of towns and infrastructure in Russia that was completely abandoned in the 80's, it's amazing how quickly it gets overgrown and falls apart - even at Chernobyl.

Waxy

[Cal]

Two points waxy. I believe you that you are right, nature has wiped the traces of many great civilazations that came before us completely clean and it can do it again given the chance. But like I've been saying, untill the abuse stops and its given that chance it will not happen. Therefor if the abuse is never stopped (at this point looks kind of likely) for all practical purposes the damage is permanent.

The other point is that I was not talking about FLUZ zones, I was talking about actual park and wildland that the industry is being allowed onto.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

Wow. I am having a hard time with this one. So that west country is completely resilient to the ecological wreck that ensues every summer. That would be the first time Ive ever heard that SG. BTW, Im no xpert, just spent my life farming, ranching, hunting and fishing. No where did I obtain an environmental sciences degree. I gotta wonder though, how can folks live their lives around or near the outdoors and have no clue about human impact on habitat and the wildlife it contains.

Guess maybe we should shut all the farmers down too as it looks like to me that they are digging up a pile more land than any ATV's and guess what it all grows back. I have been in on the hummingbird area reclamation and trail designation and have seen how the old well used trails and muddy areas in them areas have come back. I have seen trails that were two feet of mud in the country west of caroline and then a few years ago we go a big spring snow which blocked these trails and now you look at them and the are grown up and have a great sod base, in only a couple years. Hard to tell the quads used to ride there. There are alot of areas such as streams and stuff that it will affect drasticly and that do need to have something done. But closing the area off completely isnt the answer. I like to see families out there enjoying the country with there kids on there quads that would generaly never see anything other than what is out the truck window.

[Waxy]

Originally Posted by Cal

Two points waxy. I believe you that you are right, nature has wiped the traces of many great civilazations that came before us completely clean and it can do it again given the chance. But like I've been saying, untill the abuse stops and its given that chance it will not happen. Therefor if the abuse is never stopped (at this point looks kind of likely) for all practical purposes the damage is permanent.

The abuse needs to stop, no doubt.

As for it being permanent, it's only as permanent as the (ab)use, which obviously, isn't permanent. Maybe we'll be riding OHV's around in 50 or a 100 years, maybe we won't, but one way or another, nature will still be around, and still be able to "fix" itself.

The other point is that I was not talking about FLUZ zones, I was talking about actual park and wildland that the industry is being allowed onto.

I don't remember talking to you about FLUZ zones or industry? I apologize if I missed it somewhere.

At any rate, industry is a whole other ball of wax, and a much bigger one too.

The vast majority of OHV use in AB occurs in the FLUZ, they're already banned in parks and wildlands, that was the point.

Waxy

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Waxy

The vast majority of OHV use in AB occurs in the FLUZ, they're already banned in parks and wildlands, that was the point.

Waxy

Not gunna start anything so you yourself should maybe look up all the F.L.U.Z in Alberta and see how many allow the use of motorized vehicles. You may change the statement I quoted.

[Waxy]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Not gunna start anything so you yourself should maybe look up all the F.L.U.Z in Alberta and see how many allow the use of motorized vehicles. You may change the statement I quoted.

Why? It's not incorrect. By my count, 13 of 19 FLUZs allow OHV use. Were you aware of that?

Here's the link - http://www.srd.gov.ab.ca/lands/recre...llowCreek.aspx

I realize that not all FLUZ's allow OHV use, but that doesn't change the fact that most OHV use does occur in the designated FLUZ areas.

Waxy

[sheepguide]

I understand where you are coming from now but I can see why people get confused as to where is open. As alot of WMU's covered in some of there F.L.U.Z's where it says No accsess actually do have some in parts of them. and some that say they are open have very little access that is allowed. For example, zone 422- over 3/4 is shut off to motorized vehicles. Blackstone area has alot lot of atv access but says its not permitted. Its for sure not covered right in the definitions. Sorry about the confusion between us.

Didnt F.L.U.Z go by WMU's more before?

[Cooeylover]

Originally Posted by packhuntr

Ban them on the eastern slopes, ban them on the prairies, and ban them anywhere else severe damage might result from their irresponsible use, and get on with life.

Hmmm, sounds like the antis with gun control, "ban 'em all, that will fix the problem".......I hope you were being sarcastic......

Originally Posted by packhuntr

Im not an extremist and im not anti machine, I use one for a certain spring hunt situation. They work wonderfully where they are required, though Im not sure they should be used for recreation outside a track environment. Once again, im no activist, nor am I a hipocrite.

I know what you mean here, use them to hunt with, but dont use them to tear up the landscape "just because you can". And i agree with that, sounds like common sense. But common sense seems to go out the window with some when given a bit of freedom in the bush.

Now heres the big question, could you have done the hunt without it? AND if so, then why didnt you? Start a new trend by leading by example.

Rights and responsibilities, heres how it works....
Think you have the right to do/ have something? Then if you show you're irresponsible, your right disolves. Same as a drivers lisence, good drivers keep theirs, and have the right to drive. Its a double edged sword and can be as benificial as much as it can be a hinderance, depending totally on how responsible/ irresponsible you are.

Dont punish the multitude, punish the individuals.

Everyone has a camera, so start catching these vandals. There is already enough legislation and "government rules" to punish vandalism. It just needs to be exercised.

I, shouldnt be classed in the same catagory as the "duck poachers" that we've seen in this forum, just because i have a vehicle and a gun. So dont put all ATV users under the same umbrella as an "ecological vandal".

Give the government power to control one issue, and they will take it to places you never intended them to control, history shows this in spades. I hope nobody wants the SAME government to control quads that control guns and other completly failed attemps of "good intentions".

Now can someone answer me a question with solid proof, how can a quad reduce numbers of deer and elk or moose in an area. Please post a link to sufficient evidence where it has been proven. Im not being sarcastic here, i just simply want to know, (pics would be great), as to how this is happening, and how it has been proved. Travelling through rivers, stirring up silt that lays and suffocates fish eggs, I get that. Now explain how a quad trail reduces numbers of ungulates.

As I understand it, wolves eat/ kill big game, and people are the only predators of wolves. Is this possibly the main reason as to why the big game is suffering out west? Everyone seems to be mentioning about how many wolves there are, so what are they eating?

Please enlighten me............

Have a great weekend, gone camping.

[Waxy]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

I understand where you are coming from now but I can see why people get confused as to where is open. As alot of WMU's covered in some of there F.L.U.Z's where it says No accsess actually do have some in parts of them. and some that say they are open have very little access that is allowed. For example, zone 422- over 3/4 is shut off to motorized vehicles. Blackstone area has alot lot of atv access but says its not permitted. Its for sure not covered right in the definitions. Sorry about the confusion between us.

Didnt F.L.U.Z go by WMU's more before?

The confusion isn't just between us unfortunately.

IMHO this confusing is the biggest reason for the abuse. Sadly, the rules need to be laid out, in black and white language a 2 year old can understand so that the general population can understand them. Then, those rules have to be made widely and readily available.

Everyone should go to the FLUZ site above and have a look around, even if you really wanted to, it's pretty much impossible to determine from that site where you can and can't ride. They state that it's up to the individual to know the rules, and that's true, it is, but if it's nearly impossible to get a copy of the rules, and the rules are all jumbled up when you do find them, not many people are going to know them, let alone follow them. It has to start there IMHO.

That obviously won't solve the whole problem, a lot of people in society know the rules and don't care, and we just have to make sure those people face the consequences.

Waxy

[Waxy]

Great post Cooeylover!

Waxy

[sheepguide]

Its a very tough subject and one cant say its from improper posting as it would be impossible to post every trail that leads into a closed area. And yes as riders we should know where to ride but like you said unless you can put the exact locations in writting so one can understand there will always be people in the wrong and not even know it. Ive been after them to explain a boundry between 2 wmu's for almost 15yrs and have yet to get a definate answer. Even have been out there with 2 f&w officers looking at the area and the couldnt say for sure. Well hope the fuding between the outdoor users can stop and we can just get to the task of taking care of the land not argueing about who should get to use it. Hope to see you all out there one day soon.

[msawyer]

Cooeylover et al...

The wildlife, resource management and conservation biology literature is full of results that indicate impacts, direct and indirect, on ungulates of all types from the use of roads/trails by motorized vehicles. The impacts range from increased vulnerability to human-caused mortality, increased predation mortality, displacement from prime habitats, energetic costs due to harassment or displacement and the list list goes on and on.. And that's not even talking about all the other impacts, some of which have been alluded to here by others...

Does anyone ever ask themselves why western states like Montana, Oregon and Idaho have up to 20 times the number of elk in each state as Alberta has, in spite of Alberta's eastern slopes being as good or better habitat... There are two reasons, possibly more. First d**n near every valley in the eastern slopes has road or trail access and there is no refugia for these animals. Recent FLUZ policies have started to address this but it is too little and too late. Second, those states all have very large wilderness and roadless areas where no motorized vehicles are allowed (but hunting is - unlike the Alberta Wilderness Areas - but that's another story). These areas provide, big surprise, refugia and the animals flourish...

In fairness there are other issues as well. Subsidized private grazing on public lands that are the best winter ranges wildlife used to have, wide spread industrial forest harvesting, exponential growth in oil and gas developments and coal mining. All have had serious individual and cumulative effects. And I probably missed a few... Most of these exploitative activities created the very road/trail systems that ATVs now use.

Let's not make the argument that there are no impacts because it is well documented that there are, serious one!! If you what to take that position at least read the literature so you know what you are talking about...

Take care all

Mike