20 gauge vs 12 gauge for skeet and trap

[Pathfinder76]

I’m no shotgunner. In fact Friday was the first time in over 20 years that I’ve even picked one up. If I’d shot 20 shotgun shells in my life I’d be surprised.

Anyway, I did extremely well and enjoyed it. Would I be handycapped much going with a 20 gauge?

[southernman]

Not at all.

[honda610]

I have every gauge but 28. The only thing you gain is usually a lighter gun for carrying all day and a little less recoil. If your main reason is Clay's go 12 gauge and make sure the gun fits fits fits! Improper fit will be worse than any sub gauge you pick. 20 gauge 7/8 ounce vs standard 12 gauge 1 @1/8 ounce.
12 gauge is cheaper on ammo as well.
Good luck

[jpohlic]

Originally Posted by honda610

12 gauge is cheaper on ammo as well.

We only have 20 gauge in our house but every time I buy shells I ask myself why I don't shoot a 12 gauge.

[elkhunter11]

For trap the 12 gauge does offer a slight advantage, due to the denser pattern for the longer shots, but for skeet, a 20 gauge is plenty. I shoot a 12 gauge for trap and sporting clays, but even then, I use one ounce loads. I shoot 90% of my skeet with the 28 gauge and the 410, and if you are on , you can run the field with either, although it's definitely easier with the 28.

[wwbirds]

Actually I think the 28 is technically the most efficient combination of powder and shot. if a 20 fits you as well as a 12 you shouldn't notice any difference. I have been shooting sporting clays for several years and shot my best score ever with a 20 last year on a very challenging course. One other time a few years ago I shot a very good score for me with a 28 and since everything was going so well that day decided to pull my favorite 12 gauge out for the next round. I broke one additional clay on the the second round shooting a 12 over the 28 score.
Fit is everything and 12 and 20 are relatively cheap to shoot. If you are a hard core goose hunter I would say stick to 12 and if you walk miles chasing sharptails I would say shoot 28. The 20 is definitely nice middle ground.
For trap distances if you advance to handicap stations the 12 might be tighter and longer range. for skeet with proper chokes I dont think you wil notice a difference except the 20 may be faster acquisition and swinging through the target.
Did I mention fit 3 times yet?

[sns2]

12 simply due to price and most of us need every pellet we can get

[overhere]

I have a nice 20 and shoot 20 yrd handi and have no issues. Just regular misses cause i lifted my cheek. But fit fit fit . Most of all

[bobalong]

Is a 20-gauge as Effective as a 12-Gauge for Doves?

By Phil Bourjaily

There’s a faction of smallbore shooters—including some people I hunt with—who condemn the 12-gauge as “unsporting.” As a 12-gauge shooter, I see it as being versatile and ballistically efficient. This test was my chance to crush my detractors with science. One area where 12s and 20s can be compared in an apples-to-apples format is the dove field, where many hunters shoot 1-ounce loads with either gauge, so that became the basis for the test. 


Test Loads
:
- 20-gauge 1-ounce loads of Game-Shok Upland No. 71⁄2 shot at 1165 fps (Modified choke)
- 12-gauge 1-ounce loads of Game-Shok Upland No. 71⁄2 shot at 1235 fps (Modified choke)
Results: The 12-gauge delivered a 50.7 percent pattern with 202 pellets in a 30-inch circle at 40 yards. The 20 did just 39.6 percent with 149 pellets inside the circle. The 12 achieved slightly deeper penetration (2.875 inches vs. 2.5625) in gelatin at 30 yards, likely due to the higher muzzle velocity. The high-speed camera showed no statistical difference between the lengths of the shot strings, which averaged 55 inches for the 12-gauge and 57 for the 20 at 20 yards.

The Takeaway: I thought the 12 would win, but I hadn’t expected it to beat the 20 so badly. Out of curiosity we tested the 20-gauge with one size larger shot to see if we could improve its performance. With No. 6 shot the 20 delivered a huge 15 percent increase in pattern density. That gave us a bonus takeaway: If you want to tighten patterns (sometimes by a lot), shoot larger shot.

A 20-gauge is fun to handle and shoot, but when it comes to putting pellets on target efficiently, it loses out to the 12.

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by bobalong

Is a 20-gauge as Effective as a 12-Gauge for Doves?

By Phil Bourjaily

There’s a faction of smallbore shooters—including some people I hunt with—who condemn the 12-gauge as “unsporting.” As a 12-gauge shooter, I see it as being versatile and ballistically efficient. This test was my chance to crush my detractors with science. One area where 12s and 20s can be compared in an apples-to-apples format is the dove field, where many hunters shoot 1-ounce loads with either gauge, so that became the basis for the test. 


Test Loads
:
- 20-gauge 1-ounce loads of Game-Shok Upland No. 71⁄2 shot at 1165 fps (Modified choke)
- 12-gauge 1-ounce loads of Game-Shok Upland No. 71⁄2 shot at 1235 fps (Modified choke)
Results: The 12-gauge delivered a 50.7 percent pattern with 202 pellets in a 30-inch circle at 40 yards. The 20 did just 39.6 percent with 149 pellets inside the circle. The 12 achieved slightly deeper penetration (2.875 inches vs. 2.5625) in gelatin at 30 yards, likely due to the higher muzzle velocity. The high-speed camera showed no statistical difference between the lengths of the shot strings, which averaged 55 inches for the 12-gauge and 57 for the 20 at 20 yards.

The Takeaway: I thought the 12 would win, but I hadn’t expected it to beat the 20 so badly. Out of curiosity we tested the 20-gauge with one size larger shot to see if we could improve its performance. With No. 6 shot the 20 delivered a huge 15 percent increase in pattern density. That gave us a bonus takeaway: If you want to tighten patterns (sometimes by a lot), shoot larger shot.

A 20-gauge is fun to handle and shoot, but when it comes to putting pellets on target efficiently, it loses out to the 12.

The take away should be that Phil has absolutely no understanding of chokes and how they differ from gun to gun. Suggesting that larger shot will give a denser pattern is also ridiculous.

[MooseRiverTrapper]

Originally Posted by MK2750

The take away should be that Phil has absolutely no understanding of chokes and how they differ from gun to gun. Suggesting that larger shot will give a denser pattern is also ridiculous.

Could larger shot not give you denser pattern results due to less pellets?

[bobalong]

Originally Posted by MK2750

The take away should be that Phil has absolutely no understanding of chokes and how they differ from gun to gun. Suggesting that larger shot will give a denser pattern is also ridiculous.

Phil Bourjaily sold his first outdoor story—on snipe hunting— to Field & Stream in 1985. He is the shotgun columnist for Field & Stream and Ducks Unlimited magazines. He has traveled widely in pursuit of birds and waterfowl, but his favorite hunts are for geese and pheasants close to home. He enjoys skeet and sporting clays as practice for fall hunting seasons, and he coaches an SCTP club that competes in trap and sporting clays. Having made his hobby into his work, he has neither time nor need for other hobbies, although he does enjoy cooking the game he shoots.

LOL, looks like a rookie for sure.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by bobalong

Is a 20-gauge as Effective as a 12-Gauge for Doves?

By Phil Bourjaily

There’s a faction of smallbore shooters—including some people I hunt with—who condemn the 12-gauge as “unsporting.” As a 12-gauge shooter, I see it as being versatile and ballistically efficient. This test was my chance to crush my detractors with science. One area where 12s and 20s can be compared in an apples-to-apples format is the dove field, where many hunters shoot 1-ounce loads with either gauge, so that became the basis for the test. 


Test Loads
:
- 20-gauge 1-ounce loads of Game-Shok Upland No. 71⁄2 shot at 1165 fps (Modified choke)
- 12-gauge 1-ounce loads of Game-Shok Upland No. 71⁄2 shot at 1235 fps (Modified choke)
Results: The 12-gauge delivered a 50.7 percent pattern with 202 pellets in a 30-inch circle at 40 yards. The 20 did just 39.6 percent with 149 pellets inside the circle. The 12 achieved slightly deeper penetration (2.875 inches vs. 2.5625) in gelatin at 30 yards, likely due to the higher muzzle velocity. The high-speed camera showed no statistical difference between the lengths of the shot strings, which averaged 55 inches for the 12-gauge and 57 for the 20 at 20 yards.

The Takeaway: I thought the 12 would win, but I hadn’t expected it to beat the 20 so badly. Out of curiosity we tested the 20-gauge with one size larger shot to see if we could improve its performance. With No. 6 shot the 20 delivered a huge 15 percent increase in pattern density. That gave us a bonus takeaway: If you want to tighten patterns (sometimes by a lot), shoot larger shot.

A 20-gauge is fun to handle and shoot, but when it comes to putting pellets on target efficiently, it loses out to the 12.

Given that the OP is not asking about doves, but rather is asking about skeet and trap, the article is off topic and irrelevant. As for larger shot patterning more densely, it can certainly happen, just as changing the wad or velocity, or the amount of shot, can change the pattern density with the same size shot.

[Smokinyotes]

I like a 20ga for clays but why bother when 12gs shells are cheaper.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Smokinyotes

I like a 20ga for clays but why bother when 12gs shells are cheaper.

Some people like less recoil, or a lighter gun. I enjoy shooting the 410 for skeet, simply because of the challenge, and I load 410 and 28, cheaper than you can purchase 12 gauge target loads.

[catnthehat]

I don't shhot registered birds so use my hunting guns for trap and skeet , most of which are SxS hammer guns , of late my main gun s a 20 gauge hammer double .
If I do use a 12 it is with light loads, 24 grams .
Cat

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by bobalong

Phil Bourjaily sold his first outdoor story—on snipe hunting— to Field & Stream in 1985. He is the shotgun columnist for Field & Stream and Ducks Unlimited magazines. He has traveled widely in pursuit of birds and waterfowl, but his favorite hunts are for geese and pheasants close to home. He enjoys skeet and sporting clays as practice for fall hunting seasons, and he coaches an SCTP club that competes in trap and sporting clays. Having made his hobby into his work, he has neither time nor need for other hobbies, although he does enjoy cooking the game he shoots.

LOL, looks like a rookie for sure.

I have three 20 gauge that pattern differently with the same choke and not unlike some blowhards with a very high number of posts on line, quantity does not translate to quality. Some of the most ridiculous statements ever put to paper about hunting, fishing and shooting are in sporting publications, especially Field and Stream.

Pattern density is directly related to the barrel, choke, wad and speed of the shot. I have a modified 28 gauge that patterns an ounce of # 6 identical to my 20 gauge with improved cylinder with the same load. It doesn't and couldn't possibly mean that one gun is better than or out shoots the other.

I recently picked up a 12 IMP CYL over MOD that patterns much more open than my go to to 20 IMP CYL over MOD with similar payloads. This is exactly the opposite as the author suggests and they are the same brand of gun. My back bored Maxus with 30 inch barrels throws a pattern tighter than both with that same load, similar to what the author suggests but with a longer pipe.

An ounce of shot is an ounce of shot, although some would argue there is differences in shot string. Your author claims the shot string of the 20 and 12 is identical which is highly unlikely, however, this would not be evident on the patterning board anyway. The only factors that affect pattern are how that load of shot is manipulated after it leaves the shell casing. The shell casing itself is virtually irrelevant.

He does look like a rookie LOL but that certainly doesn't mean that he doesn't sell magazines and that people aren't buying into his opinion as if it were fact. Anyone that has handled more than a couple of shotguns should know that there are no hard and fast rules when it come to patterns.The exception is at least as common as any rule thought up.

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by MooseRiverTrapper

Could larger shot not give you denser pattern results due to less pellets?

Maybe and maybe not. I was patterning a few different Remington loads in my 12s and found speed was the deciding factor. They have one load called Hyper Sonic or something similar that apparently throws steel shot at over 300 fps faster than their Nitro Steel. The Nitro at 1450 patterned fine with both #4 and #2. The Hyper Sonic blew the pattern apart and it was very inconsistent from shot to shot. The # 2 only put a dozen or so in the circle.

In theory, smaller shot could be more affected by speed and spread faster. This would be especially true with a cheap wad in a target load. Adjusting speed, wad, barrel length, boring and choke would change that theory however and these adjustments happen from gun to gun, load to load and even different batches of what should be the same load.

[bobalong]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Given that the OP is not asking about doves, but rather is asking about skeet and trap, the article is off topic and irrelevant. As for larger shot patterning more densely, it can certainly happen, just as changing the wad or velocity, or the amount of shot, can change the pattern density with the same size shot.

I guess you sort of missed the point, target is irrelevant, its about target efficiency with the same loads, the gun won't shoot different because it is shooting at doves instead of clays.

A 20-gauge is fun to handle and shoot, but when it comes to putting pellets on target efficiently, it loses out to the 12.

[bobalong]

Originally Posted by MK2750

I have three 20 gauge that pattern differently with the same choke and not unlike some blowhards with a very high number of posts on line, quantity does not translate to quality. Some of the most ridiculous statements ever put to paper about hunting, fishing and shooting are in sporting publications, especially Field and Stream.

Pattern density is directly related to the barrel, choke, wad and speed of the shot. I have a modified 28 gauge that patterns an ounce of # 6 identical to my 20 gauge with improved cylinder with the same load. It doesn't and couldn't possibly mean that one gun is better than or out shoots the other.

I recently picked up a 12 IMP CYL over MOD that patterns much more open than my go to to 20 IMP CYL over MOD with similar payloads. This is exactly the opposite as the author suggests and they are the same brand of gun. My back bored Maxus with 30 inch barrels throws a pattern tighter than both with that same load, similar to what the author suggests but with a longer pipe.

An ounce of shot is an ounce of shot, although some would argue there is differences in shot string. Your author claims the shot string of the 20 and 12 is identical which is highly unlikely, however, this would not be evident on the patterning board anyway. The only factors that affect pattern are how that load of shot is manipulated after it leaves the shell casing. The shell casing itself is virtually irrelevant.

He does look like a rookie LOL but that certainly doesn't mean that he doesn't sell magazines and that people aren't buying into his opinion as if it were fact. Anyone that has handled more than a couple of shotguns should know that there are no hard and fast rules when it come to patterns.The exception is at least as common as any rule thought up.

Probably not hard and fast, I doubt whether he really cares what shotgun you or I use or if you believe his findings, just a guy who appears to love shotgunning and posted his findings from a pattern test.

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by bobalong

I guess you sort of missed the point, target is irrelevant, its about target efficiency with the same loads, the gun won't shoot different because it is shooting at doves instead of clays.

A 20-gauge is fun to handle and shoot, but when it comes to putting pellets on target efficiently, it loses out to the 12.

This is as ridiculous as the 308 vs 30-06 argument. The only time case size becomes a factor is when you put more lead or more powder in that case. With two identical projectiles travelling at the same speed you can predict the results to be virtually identical.

And yes there is a huge difference between target loads and field loads like your author is using in his example. Quality field loads have different wads, many of which control more the flight and release of the payload than target loads. Flight Control wads in some modern waterfowl loads shoot tighter patterns out of a cylinder bore than target loads out of a full choke.

[wwbirds]

Never missed a clay or a bird due to velocity, shot size, pattern, choke or the brand of shooting vest or boots I was wearing that day. Biggest factor in determining a hit or miss is the person behind the tool. I know several people that can shoot a 410 or 28 gauge extremely well and would not hesitate to put them in contention with proficient shooters of the 12 or 20 gauge. There are many that even with 12 or even a 10 gauge can not pull off 50% of their shots at live or clay targets. 30% more pellets per shell will not put them on target any better. Behind is still behind whether 410 or 12 gauge and that is where many shoot whether it is because they stop swinging when they activate the trigger or they never catch up and pass through the target and maintain the lead.

[MK2750]

Originally Posted by bobalong

Probably not hard and fast, I doubt whether he really cares what shotgun you or I use or if you believe his findings, just a guy who appears to love shotgunning and posted his findings from a pattern test.

If he doesn't care what the average Joe is shooting he shouldn't be advising us via an outdoor publication.

These guys put words on paper for a living, no words no pay cheque. I am sure his love of shooting lead him down this path but that doesn't make his opinion any more factual.

[bobalong]

Originally Posted by MK2750

This is as ridiculous as the 308 vs 30-06 argument. The only time case size becomes a factor is when you put more lead or more powder in that case. With two identical projectiles travelling at the same speed you can predict the results to be virtually identical.

And yes there is a huge difference between target loads and field loads like your author is using in his example. Quality field loads have different wads, many of which control more the flight and release of the payload than target loads. Flight Control wads in some modern waterfowl loads shoot tighter patterns out of a cylinder bore than target loads out of a full choke.

The point of his test was trying to compare apples to apples as best he could, same shot size, same load size, same choke, similar velocity not to try and compare target to field loads. If you don't agree with his findings...........no problem. It was just posted FYI

[bobalong]

Originally Posted by MK2750

If he doesn't care what the average Joe is shooting he shouldn't be advising us via an outdoor publication.

These guys put words on paper for a living, no words no pay cheque. I am sure his love of shooting lead him down this path but that doesn't make his opinion any more factual.

Why would he care what you are shooting? When people are trying to sell you something they may care what you use, but this is not the case. There are many writers out there who do testing on a lot of things shooting related.

They report the findings, but don't usually try and ram their facts down your throat.........they provide results of their test and you decide whether you think they are valid and if the information is something you will use or not.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by bobalong

I guess you sort of missed the point, target is irrelevant, its about target efficiency with the same loads, the gun won't shoot different because it is shooting at doves instead of clays.

A 20-gauge is fun to handle and shoot, but when it comes to putting pellets on target efficiently, it loses out to the 12.

The target is relevant when it means that the loads used are different. Typical dove loads and the trap/skeet loads that people use vary considerably, and as a result, they often pattern differently. As to the 12 vs 20 gauge comment, do you realize that some top level skeet shooters don't even shoot a 12 gauge, but instead shoot a 20 gauge in the 12 gauge events? Some of the longest straight runs in skeet history, were shot with the 20 gauge. As for myself, my skeet average with the 28 gauge was running within about 1% of my average with the 12 gauge, so until you get down to the 410, it really doesn't matter what you use for skeet, because the ranges are so close. Because trap targets are farther away, the 12 gauge does have an advantage, because due to the pattern density, it is less likely that the clay will be in a hole in the pattern with the larger 12 gauge payload. As for sporting clays, many of us use 1 ounce loads, and some people are even using 7/8 ounce loads, and it doesn't seem to have significant effect on scores.
Now when it comes to hunting, I don't use a 410, because it is usually harder to cleanly kill a bird, than it is to break a clay. At skeet ranges, two or three #9 pellets will usually break a clay, and even a single pellet sometimes does it, but by the time you get out to 30 yards or more, a pattern of even #7-1/2 , out of a 410 is not as dense as I want for clean kills on game birds. Even stepping up to a 28 gauge increases the payload by 50%, which makes a huge difference. When using large sized steel shot for geese, I switch to 3" twelve gauge, to provide the pattern density that provides consistent clean kills. Then again, a 3" twelve gauge is not required, or even allowed for shooting clays.

[bobalong]

Originally Posted by wwbirds

Never missed a clay or a bird due to velocity, shot size, pattern, choke or the brand of shooting vest or boots I was wearing that day. Biggest factor in determining a hit or miss is the person behind the tool. I know several people that can shoot a 410 or 28 gauge extremely well and would not hesitate to put them in contention with proficient shooters of the 12 or 20 gauge. There are many that even with 12 or even a 10 gauge can not pull off 50% of their shots at live or clay targets. 30% more pellets per shell will not put them on target any better. Behind is still behind whether 410 or 12 gauge and that is where many shoot whether it is because they stop swinging when they activate the trigger or they never catch up and pass through the target and maintain the lead.

When comparing different gauges of shotguns I always think you should consider shooting proficiency to be the same, as that is really the only way you can make a true comparison on the different gauges. You seem to be implying that the only reason that many people shoot a 12 instead of a 20 or 28 is because they can't shoot as well.

I don't believe that to be the case, I think most shoot the 12 for improved patterns and additional energy delivered down range......and shells are cheaper and more readily available.

[bobalong]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

The target is relevant when it means that the loads used are different. Typical dove loads and the trap/skeet loads that people use vary considerably, and as a result, they often pattern differently. As to the 12 vs 20 gauge comment, do you realize that some top level skeet shooters don't even shoot a 12 gauge, but instead shoot a 20 gauge in the 12 gauge events? Some of the longest straight runs in skeet history, were shot with the 20 gauge. As for myself, my skeet average with the 28 gauge was running within about 1% of my average with the 12 gauge, so until you get down to the 410, it really doesn't matter what you use for skeet, because the ranges are so close. Because trap targets are farther away, the 12 gauge does have an advantage, because due to the pattern density, it is less likely that the clay will be in a hole in the pattern with the larger 12 gauge payload. As for sporting clays, many of us use 1 ounce loads, and some people are even using 7/8 ounce loads, and it doesn't seem to have significant effect on scores.
Now when it comes to hunting, I don't use a 410, because it is usually harder to cleanly kill a bird, than it is to break a clay. At skeet ranges, two or three #9 pellets will usually break a clay, and even a single pellet sometimes does it, but by the time you get out to 30 yards or more, a pattern of even #7-1/2 , out of a 410 is not as dense as I want for clean kills on game birds. Even stepping up to a 28 gauge increases the payload by 50%, which makes a huge difference. When using large sized steel shot for geese, I switch to 3" twelve gauge, to provide the pattern density that provides consistent clean kills. Then again, a 3" twelve gauge is not required, or even allowed for shooting clays.

All well and good but the test the OP was doing was to try and use loads that were the same not different it was sort of the point of the article. I am quite he sure he realizes that hunting and target loads are different between sizes and gauges.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by bobalong

When comparing different gauges of shotguns I always think you should consider shooting proficiency to be the same, as that is really the only way you can make a true comparison on the different gauges. You seem to be implying that the only reason that many people shoot a 12 instead of a 20 or 28 is because they can't shoot as well.

I don't believe that to be the case, I think most shoot the 12 for improved patterns and additional energy delivered down range......and shells are cheaper and more readily available.

When it comes to clays, most people choose a 12 gauge due to cheaper ammunition, and because they are counting on the larger sweet spot in the pattern to break more clays. If you look at the NSSA ranking system, the difference in scores between a 12 and 20 gauge for an A or AA shooter, is around 1%, or one target out of 100. The average recreational shooter will never notice one target out of 100, but he/she may notice the difference in recoil between the 12 and 20 gauge, over the course of 100 shots. As well, a smaller shooter may find the slightly lighter 20 gauge gun less tiring over 100 shots. I choose to shoot a 28 or 410 for skeet, rather than a 12 gauge, for the same reason I typically shoot doubles when I do shoot a larger gauge, that being, it is a bit more of challenge. If I wanted to shoot the highest possible scores, I would shoot a 12 gauge at all clays games, and I do recommend a 12 gauge for the clays games if the shooter doesn't mind recoil or a heavier gun, and wants to shoot the highest possible scores. But if shooting clays is only intended to improve your wing shooting, a 20 gauge will help just as much in that regard.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by bobalong

All well and good but the test the OP was doing was to try and use loads that were the same not different it was sort of the point of the article. I am quite he sure he realizes that hunting and target loads are different between sizes and gauges.

The OP likely used one load, one choke manufacturer, and one particular shotgun to come up with his results, had he used several different loads, several different chokes, and several different guns, the results might be very different, and they would be more credible. I have tested the same loads with different chokes, or the same choke with a different load, or the same load and choke in different guns, and seen the results differ considerably as far as patterning is concerned. These days, my testing for target loads, is pretty much limited to shooting clays, and unless there is a reliability issue with the ammunition, I may at the most change my choke slightly when changing loads , and I usually don't even bother with that, as long as the targets keep breaking, I just keep shooting.