Your Idea's, to face lift our current Draw System

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

So in other words just guess!! LoL

That or do the math.

You could ask the beautiful new pony of yours to tap out the numbers for you if you need some help.

[Wisebuck]

I see individuals that are almost exclusively hunting one or two specific anim als (read Draws) advocating change and elimination of 999 in order to improve their chances of repeatedly drawing those same animals.
I say "stop being so greedy and diversify your hunting to include more species".
Just my opinion......

[sheepguide]

But in the end its still a guess Buff as you have no idea how many guys are at what priority in what area. In some zones there is no one higher than a priority 5 as they have only been open for 5 years so how do you use the whole 999 totals to figure averages? They may have the same number of applicants but have not been on the system long enough to be up to multi digit priority levels. Maybe in that zone the highest 999 applicant is a priority 4? Without knowing this taking a flat number from all zones can be nothing but a vauge guess at best?

Two zones can have the exact same number in a draw code of applicants and guys in 999 that would apply and It may have the exact same priorities to get drawn but one may have most 999 guys at higher priorities and few at the lower ones and the other may have few high priority guys but lots in the lower side not near getting drawn. By your caculation these two would have the exact same wait times which would be 100% false.


Unless you can determine what zones and how many guys are going to draw out of the 999 pool then its nothing but a guess and is why you hear every year I should have gotten my tag as it said a priority 5 should have got it. But if it was a good year for that species or the previous year was great on trophy animals the numbers coming out of 999 can vary immensely.

Look at antelope. There is a large 999 crowd there due to tag number decreases. But even if numbers hold the same but guys start killing some toads a big crowd will come out of the 999 side and will change things drastically. That number coming out in any zone at any given time is very unknown.

If its a slow winter in the oil patch and guys are hurting for money they may drop out of the draw and into the 999 pool as they cant afford hunts that year. Now the variable has changed again.

You can figure as many estimated numbers you wish but unless you can roughly determine how many guys are going to actually put in that particular year your numbers are a guess.

[Roughneck Country]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Outfitters often live hundreds of kms from some of the areas that they hunt in.

Who cares if he is not local as long as the $$ stay in the province.

Which is no different than when I go on a self guided hunt. And I have been on outfitted hunts, where were stayed in a tent camp, and never set foot in any town or village for ten days. The outfitter brought in groceries from many miles away, when he brought me into camp.

Where do you think he brought the groceries from? Surly an outfitter in Aberta wont import groceries from BC o else where doesnt even make sense. Not many stay in town during the hunt it is always at the front end and back end of the trip.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Wisebuck

I see individuals that are almost exclusively hunting one or two specific anim als (read Draws) advocating change and elimination of 999 in order to improve their chances of repeatedly drawing those same animals.
I say "stop being so greedy and diversify your hunting to include more species".
Just my opinion......

More guys applying for more different draws will increase all wait times even more. As they will still put in their regular draws and just add more increasing applicants on them new draws.

[Lefty-Canuck]

It is always a guess....hence why it is a draw/lottery

Sometimes you win sometimes you lose but you can't win if you don't buy a ticket.....that's what most people who enter everything have figured out.

I said this before....there has been a major "reboot" in the system due to a lot of factors and times change.

Years ago a draw that was a gimme in 2 years is now 4 and what took 4 is taking 6-8....sheer numbers of hunters and applications and our populations if wildlife are staying the same or declining.

So yes it is going to take a heck if a lot longer now than it did 10 years ago.

Get used to it....

LC

[Wisebuck]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

More guys applying for more different draws will increase all wait times even more. As they will still put in their regular draws and just add more increasing applicants on them new draws.

Hunting more species doesn't necessarily mean put in for more draws. There are lots of gereral tags available if you are willing to do a little traveling.

[Stewie]

Originally Posted by Wisebuck

Hunting more species doesn't necessarily mean put in for more draws. There are lots of gereral tags available if you are willing to do a little traveling.

You can still put in all the draws you want and still pick up general tags if your not drawn or keep 999

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Wisebuck

Hunting more species doesn't necessarily mean put in for more draws. There are lots of gereral tags available if you are willing to do a little traveling.

Oh I realize that. Was just meaning if they spread themselves out more in the draw.

[Desert Eagle]

Originally Posted by bpk1982

This is not the answer to the problem...by pricing people out...I don't agree with all this BS about people applying because they can...they apply because its another hunting opportunity that's available to everyone and not just for a select few...

I totally agree. Why take opprotunity away from the people that can't afford the increase in draw costs. It would also limit a lot of lower income families from entering their children for draws. Not to mention for many elderly hunters this is how they fill the freezer for the winter.

I don't post much on here, because looking from outside it seems that every post turns into a pi$$ing match, or is just hypocritical. This thread got under my skin though. Not long ago there was the debate about paid access for hunting. Most arguements were against it saying that it would take away opprotunities for many people that couldn't afford to pay to hunt. Now we are a few months later and fellow sportsmen are proposing to increase the costs of hunting which in turn will leave out the low income people. However now that it affects more people, not just landowners, everyone is all for it?? Seems like there are some personal agendas at work here.

This is crap!

[Lefty-Canuck]

Actually I am shocked, amazed, and pleased that this discussion has been quite cordial and stayed relatively on the rails.

LC

[hal53]

Originally Posted by Desert Eagle

I totally agree. Why take opprotunity away from the people that can't afford the increase in draw costs. It would also limit a lot of lower income families from entering their children for draws. Not to mention for many elderly hunters this is how they fill the freezer for the winter.

I don't post much on here, because looking from outside it seems that every post turns into a pi$$ing match, or is just hypocritical. This thread got under my skin though. Not long ago there was the debate about paid access for hunting. Most arguements were against it saying that it would take away opprotunities for many people that couldn't afford to pay to hunt. Now we are a few months later and fellow sportsmen are proposing to increase the costs of hunting which in turn will leave out the low income people. However now that it affects more people, not just landowners, everyone is all for it?? Seems like there are some personal agendas at work here.

This is crap!

by raising a 3 dollar draw to 10 or 15 bucks???...gimme a break`

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Actually I am shocked, amazed, and pleased that this discussion has been quite cordial and stayed relatively on the rails.

LC

X2!

[sakogreywolf]

Originally Posted by hal53

by raising a 3 dollar draw to 10 or 15 bucks???...gimme a break`

Agreed.......

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Actually I am shocked, amazed, and pleased that this discussion has been quite cordial and stayed relatively on the rails.

LC

and agreed!

[Lefty-Canuck]

Paid hunting vs. a slight increase in user fees are two entirely different concepts.

One could argue the minister tags are a form of paid hunting....highest bidder gets one of the tags.

I would like to see any fee increases be put directly back into conservation or enforcement personally.

LC

[elkhunter11]

Your dollars spent to that outfitter were partially used for insurance, groceries, fuel, allocation renewals, vehicles, any other supplies and many other things in the host province or state so to say no monies went locally is ludacris!! It's still spent back into the province.

Where did I post that "no money" ever went to local businesses. What I did post was that in many cases, resident hunters contribute just as much to the local economy as outfitted hunters do. If you want to talk total financial contribution to the province, Alberta residents that live and pay their taxes in Alberta all year, contribute far more to the Alberta economy than the average outfitted hunter ever does.

As to reducing the number of draw applications, with a cost of under $4 per application , money is never going to in any way be a factor. If as I have proposed several times, the person's credit card was charged immediately after he was drawn for a tag, the $40 or $50 tag fee, might result in people at least thinking whether they really wanted the tag before applying.

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Where did I post that "no money" ever went to local businesses. What I did post was that in many cases, resident hunters contribute just as much to the local economy as outfitted hunters do. If you want to talk total financial contribution to the province, Alberta residents that live and pay their taxes in Alberta all year, contribute far more to the Alberta economy than the average outfitted hunter ever does.

Exactly....and the hunter hosted folks usually have a buddies place to stay at, eat his food, etc....

They contribute to the economy but no where near as much as a resident hunter does.

BUT I digress this discussion isn't about the economy

LC

[Roughneck Country]

Originally Posted by sakogreywolf

Agreed.......




and agreed!

X2 or X3 which ever we are at

[Roughneck Country]

Originally Posted by Desert Eagle

I totally agree. Why take opprotunity away from the people that can't afford the increase in draw costs. It would also limit a lot of lower income families from entering their children for draws. Not to mention for many elderly hunters this is how they fill the freezer for the winter.

I don't post much on here, because looking from outside it seems that every post turns into a pi$$ing match, or is just hypocritical. This thread got under my skin though. Not long ago there was the debate about paid access for hunting. Most arguements were against it saying that it would take away opprotunities for many people that couldn't afford to pay to hunt. Now we are a few months later and fellow sportsmen are proposing to increase the costs of hunting which in turn will leave out the low income people. However now that it affects more people, not just landowners, everyone is all for it?? Seems like there are some personal agendas at work here.

This is crap!

Seriously if you cant afford to pay $10 or $25 for a draw app you really can't afford hunting period. Gas, shells, and all the other expense that goes with hunting it make venison the most expensive meat there is. Unless you shoot it in the back yard its way cheaper to buy your meat at the store.

There is also all kinds of general season tags available if a higher application cost is an issue. Not saying we should intentionally raise costs to push out the less fortunate to shorten wait times but at some point a person needs to realize they need to get a better job or quite complaining. Anyone in Alberta that is physically able to hunt (other than out the window of a truck) should be able to work a job that allows them to make decent money. The patch is booming this is as good as it gets. I would hate to see what people who can't afford a $10 draw app fee today do when the patch goes to bust in this province. Sorry for the soap box but I can't accept this argument of poor people cant apply if we raise the app fee.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by Desert Eagle

I totally agree. Why take opprotunity away from the people that can't afford the increase in draw costs. It would also limit a lot of lower income families from entering their children for draws. Not to mention for many elderly hunters this is how they fill the freezer for the winter.

I don't post much on here, because looking from outside it seems that every post turns into a pi$$ing match, or is just hypocritical. This thread got under my skin though. Not long ago there was the debate about paid access for hunting. Most arguements were against it saying that it would take away opprotunities for many people that couldn't afford to pay to hunt. Now we are a few months later and fellow sportsmen are proposing to increase the costs of hunting which in turn will leave out the low income people. However now that it affects more people, not just landowners, everyone is all for it?? Seems like there are some personal agendas at work here.

This is crap!

I like the Idea of having to raise the price of draws. Multiply the amount by...

Once in a life time
(Bison, Goat, (Grizz*)) ........... X 10

Trophy
(Sheep, Antelope)....................X 7

Bulls
( Moose and Elk ) ................... X 5

Bucks
( Muleys and Whiteys) ............ X 4

Turkey ................................. X 3

Ewe's and Antelope Does ...... X 3

Doe's & Cows & Calf ............... no change
( for those who can't afford and depend on the meat)

just a thought!

[H380]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

I like the Idea of having to raise the price of draws. Multiply the amount by...

Once in a life time
(Bison, Goat, (Grizz*)) ........... X 10

Trophy
(Sheep, Antelope)....................X 7

Bulls
( Moose and Elk ) ................... X 5

Bucks
( Muleys and Whiteys) ............ X 4

Turkey ................................. X 3

Ewe's and Antelope Does ...... X 3

Doe's & Cows & Calf ............... no change
( for those who can't afford and depend on the meat)

just a thought!

These would be a good place to start , could even be higher for something like the grizz application ...Also send this money to enforcement as Lefty suggests . Can you imagine how many people would apply for a grizz tag ?

[super7mag]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

I like the Idea of having to raise the price of draws. Multiply the amount by...

Once in a life time
(Bison, Goat, (Grizz*)) ........... X 10

Trophy
(Sheep, Antelope)....................X 7

Bulls
( Moose and Elk ) ................... X 5

Bucks
( Muleys and Whiteys) ............ X 4

Turkey ................................. X 3

Ewe's and Antelope Does ...... X 3

Doe's & Cows & Calf ............... no change
( for those who can't afford and depend on the meat)

just a thought!

That actually looks pretty acceptable to me. It leaves opportunity affordable for up and comers, it makes the serious tags not ridiculously priced but high enough you would have to be willing to pay for 5-8 years to get drawn.
Have a caveat where this extra money goes into conservation and cracking down on fake or false win cards and not into IBM jeans . It would be a decent proposal.

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

I like the Idea of having to raise the price of draws. Multiply the amount by...

Once in a life time
(Bison, Goat, (Grizz*)) ........... X 10

Trophy
(Sheep, Antelope)....................X 7

Bulls
( Moose and Elk ) ................... X 5

Bucks
( Muleys and Whiteys) ............ X 4

Turkey ................................. X 3

Ewe's and Antelope Does ...... X 3

Doe's & Cows & Calf ............... no change
( for those who can't afford and depend on the meat)

just a thought!

You guys realize, in a nutshell what your saying is, we need to thin the herd. Best way to do it is get rid of folks that can't afford to put big bucks into draws like us serious sportsmen. Do you think the "serious" sportsmen are somehow more deserving?

[slough shark]

I don't know why people are even bringing up 999, I remember when 999 was not an option I just used certain zones to build priority and then apply for the zone I wanted to when I wanted to get drawn ( eg. apply for my bull moose in 400, I would need something stupid like a p-13 to get drawn or something like that). I just use 999 as a way of ensuring I don't get drawn for both moose and elk in one year, no way I can eat that much in 1 year or get that much time off for all the hunts. 999 is a non-issue to me. Everyone is talking about raising prices for everyone, Why not do something if you want to cut down on applications for monetary means (or add revenue into government coffers anyways), make non-resident draws pricier, like $50 or so. I also know this would make for a few more people entering but those using guides I think should have to be drawn. and make the cost of draws go up the more you enter, price starts at $5 for the first and price for each application goes up by a couple bucks for each additional draw that you enter. Potty also had a good idea too about certain applications costing more, I would also be ok with that scheme (for residents.)

[Roughneck Country]

Originally Posted by pikergolf

You guys realize, in a nutshell what your saying is, we need to thin the herd. Best way to do it is get rid of folks that can't afford to put big bucks into draws like us serious sportsmen. Do you think the "serious" sportsmen are somehow more deserving?

Once again, with a current draw price of $3 and change X 10 means it is still only ~$30 to put in for a Premium Species under potty mouths suggestion. If you cant afford $30 for a draw, you really can not afford to hunt. Not saying people with not a lot of $$ should not have the opportunity to hunt but really if you cant afford $30 for a draw you should not even be concidering going hunting as the fuel reqired alone will be 5 times more than the cost of the draw! Hunting is EXPENSIVE period!

If a draw app fee is really an issue there are all kinds of open seaason tags available for multiple species so its not like there are not still an enourmous amount of options!

[Roughneck Country]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

I like the Idea of having to raise the price of draws. Multiply the amount by...

Once in a life time
(Bison, Goat, (Grizz*)) ........... X 10

Trophy
(Sheep, Antelope)....................X 7

Bulls
( Moose and Elk ) ................... X 5

Bucks
( Muleys and Whiteys) ............ X 4

Turkey ................................. X 3

Ewe's and Antelope Does ...... X 3

Doe's & Cows & Calf ............... no change
( for those who can't afford and depend on the meat)

just a thought!

I like your suggestion, one thing I would change is the once in a lifetime tag cost. Maybe have the app fee as you suggested but make the tags $3,000 or $5,000 with the money going directly into habitat conservation or some other worthwhile venue. With payment of the tag up from and a refund if not drawn. This would take out a lot if not majoity of people out of the draws (myself included) and would provide decent revenue for worthwhile projects. Right now we have virtually impossible odds of drawing anyway, why not put the premium species most of us will never draw on a premium! Maybe the sheep draws get higher tag prices as well.

I'm sure I will get slammed for taking out people who are less fortunate out of the draw but at some point in time things need to change and increase in fees to manage a "draw problem" is inevitable in my opinion. This approach is already in place in a lot of states in the US. Maybe making the Sheep draws that exceed a P10 a once in a lifetime draw as well might help. I am sure there are a lot of people that have drawn them that continue to put in for another tag.

[209x50]

I don't see a solution in 10 pages. I would rather see better game management as a solution rather than managing hunters. But that is just my opinion.

[Roughneck Country]

Originally Posted by 209x50

I don't see a solution in 10 pages. I would rather see better game management as a solution rather than managing hunters. But that is just my opinion.

Last time I checked the draw system is part of game management. Hunters and game management go hand in hand. You can't manage one without effecting the other.

[H380]

Originally Posted by 209x50

I don't see a solution in 10 pages. I would rather see better game management as a solution rather than managing hunters. But that is just my opinion.

Maybe no solutions , but at least some thought for possible change .SRD is doing a poor job of game management , may not be able to manage hunters any better .

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by 209x50

I don't see a solution in 10 pages. I would rather see better game management as a solution rather than managing hunters. But that is just my opinion.

Like has been stated if we wait for better game managment as you say we could be here a long time with no fixes and things could be a lot worse before anything is done. As we sit and wait for proper game managment as we have since I started hunting things just continue to get worse and worse!!
And if your so educated in the facts as to be able to discredit every idea posted maybe you should share some knowledge and show how your game managment plan would work so much better. Instead of just jumping in to say 10pages of posts have no use or possible workability to eleviate the draw traffic jam we have.
But you probably won't see this I'm sure because you threw a pout a while back and probably still have me on ignore.

Look forward to 209's thoughts and ideas.

Anyways I think this has been a great thread with some good thoughts and hope it continues. Good job everyone!!