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  #181  
Old 01-09-2007, 10:54 AM
Blakeinator2
 
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Default Re: X-Bows

I drew twice on my biggest whitetail with a bow, was using the trophy taker original fall away at the time and for the first time the arrow skipped to the riser side of the rest and screeched....i had to let down and do it again...still nailed him and he was down in 40. So many lessons one learns in the field....as gay as it sounds i shoot a whisker bisquit...just so simple, not as quiet as i can make a trophy taker but i don't mind a little noise on the draw...i usually draw when i want the animal to stop for the shot...usually they hear something/catch some movement and stop to have a look...if they don't i bleat at them to get them to stop for the shot. Obviously this is from blinds or treestands and not on spot/stalk type hunts. And i'd go back to a trophy taker any day, i'd just get the one with the bigger forks...but they are awesome rests also, a little 'fuzzy stuff' and you can make it 100% zero noise on the draw if you need that...as an elk hunter i know told me thats the only way to go. I can't imagine giving up my whisker bisquit now.

I've seen the second shot phenom also...lots of times they have no idea whats going on and they stick around to find out. Don't miss with the crossbow as thats your one chance.

The 'draw' factor is tiny in the big picture.
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  #182  
Old 01-10-2007, 06:58 PM
Shedcrazy
 
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Default Re: X-Bows

Sorry blake but you drew me back in....I think the draw factor is huge.

Maybe from a treestand it is a none factor but on the ground it is everything. Can't even beleive you said that.
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  #183  
Old 01-11-2007, 02:06 PM
Blakeinator2
 
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Default Re: X-Bows

Lol Shed.....i was on the ground with my biggest whitetail at 30 yrds when i drew on him twice. Blind is most reliable way to do whitetails on ground imo. I stalked a whitetail doe to 18 yrds, drew behind tree, came around it and made it happen no prob also...the stalk was the hard part. Being on the ground with whitetails is a challenge that is most definitely 99% hunter forsure...the tool is a small factor. Mule deer are much easier to be on the ground with....but either way...the tool itself is a minor factor...if your good with either one then you got same odds with either one.

I've been in most situations with deer, tree's/ground etc. but the only critters i'd argue the draw is a massive factor....is coyotes. Those pesky little boogers have busted 4 out of 5 times on the draw....the deer....not a big deal man. If i thought it was then i'd say so...but i don't have trouble getting the draw. Personally i love the draw part of it, i don't think i could give up the compound for myself...there is something about pulling it back and touching it off etc. that general satisfaction about shooting a bow. But it still doesn't change my opinion on where the crossbow fits...and all the benefits that would go with that.

We can go round and round but the the stats show that whatever the differences are between the two choices(draw, weight/cumbersome, second shot etc. etc.)...they are moot as the numbers show each as effective as the other in the field....so the draw is not near the factor people first think.

B
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  #184  
Old 01-19-2007, 03:29 PM
Blades
 
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Default crossbows

this is a test to see if I can still post
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  #185  
Old 01-19-2007, 04:08 PM
Blakeinator2
 
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Default Re: crossbows

picked a fine thread to test on and bring back to the top :lol
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  #186  
Old 01-19-2007, 06:01 PM
Blades
 
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Default crossbows

Well, how about that! My grey matter still works!
I have not posted for a while, but I have really enjoyed the banter on the 2 crossbow threads... to which I would like to add to and correct some terminology. First, I will tell exactly where I stand on this issue. I am an authorized dealer of Excalibur Crossbows in Alberta, however, I only sell maybe 5 in a year...mostly less, so making money is a very small driving factor for me to have crossbows in archery season.(darn, the cat is out of the bag....lol) I believe in education, so I am an instructor(with AHEIA) for hunter-training, restricted and non-restricted firearms, I instruct a "crossbow basics" course, and put on a "Crossbow Information Seminar" to any interested groups as well. The only one offered in Alberta, to the best of my knowledge. I am also(on my own free time) collecting signatures to include crossbows in archery season. BTW I hunt with a vertical bow, and of course, my guns.
For those of you that are interested in a magazine dedicated to horizontal bows, check out www.horizontalbowhunter.com
I would like to address a couple of terms that I think are 'misnomers'.
1 "Crossgun" - as Rob so nicely put it, a bow goes phhhht, a gun goes bang. A horizontal bow goes phhhht....and for those of you that are hung up on the stock thing,(the trigger is just a mechanical release) a quick history lesson is in order. Long before the firearm or cannon was invented, someone mounted a bow on a stock(horizontally), so from a historical point of view, the gun is a hand cannon mounted on a crossbow stock. Be careful what is used as a basis for comparison. And Rob is quite correct in saying that a horizontal bow does not 'kick', but jumps forward....I get asked that alot too.
2 bolt vs arrow - simple misguided transfer of terminology....an arrow has 4 basic components; nock, fletching, shaft, and some form of a point(broadhead, field, etc) A bolt is minus one of these components...the fletching. So a horizontal bow flings an arrow(be it a short one) Also see the pricing list from Excalibur...identified as 'arrows'.
I am glad to see that there is now an understanding on what a horizontal bow will and will not do as per hunting distances. I did an experiment and wrote an article on it, If anyone is interested, contact me...(maybe Rob will publish it...he he..JOKE, Rob) One thing that does bother me on this subject, is the understated fact of how much noise a horizontal bow makes on release of the string. The noise does factor in, especially when the game animal is at distances greater than 30 to 35 yds. The bulk of kills is made at under 30 yds.(in my reaserch)
How about stalking game? Pack one around all day, then come back and talk to me...I do recomend that when stalking, you can do it with the bow drawn, but refrain from nocking an arrow untill necessary.(best judgement senario) I will discuss this further if anyone wants to go there.

"guess I should ask how will bowhunters benefit from allowing them?" Let me take a stab at this....
(what follows is actually true, from Georgia stats)
Bowhunters are recruited earlier and retained longer...let me elaborate....
Kids that show interest in archery can be taken out hunting before they have the strength to draw and hold the required 40 lbs...it is a 'one shot deal', great for parents from a safety perspective. Want to teach your kids or grandkids the finer points of bow hunting? Get the kids hunting! As they mature it is natural that a bigger challenge is in order...they will move onto the vertical bow.(great recruitment, EH?) As the hunter ages,(50 +) the vertical bow gets harder to use due to injury and plain old wear and tear of getting older.(anyone know what I mean?) The perfect solution to keeping these people 'in the game' is.....you guessed it...the horizontal bow. IMO the ABA(great group BTW) is nuts not to use this to their advantage.
As for the 'disabled permit'......you have to have a upper body paralysis or missing a limb, period. AND to top it off, after the doctor gives you documented proof of your disability, it is completely up to the PERSONAL OPINION of the F&W officer on duty weather or not you get the permit. If he does not like horizontal bows, guess what?...... you are S O L. And this is a stick in my craw, because it happened to several members of my family.

Just an opinion after reading through some of the medeviel history of the crossbow,...the church banned the use of the crossbow for 2 reasons....1 it could pierce a knights armour, and 2 small hand held crossbows were considered an assassins weapon. The stigma seems to have stuck to modern day.
Poacher's weapon? hahahahaha!!! give me a break....ever try to stick one out a truck window?
The scope seems to be a point of contention.....it is usually no more than 2.5 power and is useful in light-gathering ability in low light....much like the fibre-optic pins on a vertical bow. The scope does not help to shoot further. Personal preference.
The time is well past to catagorize the horizontal bow to where it really belongs......as archery tackle.

Todd
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  #187  
Old 01-21-2007, 12:20 PM
sharpstick
 
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Default Re: crossbows

Blades good info!
A couple questions....

What did your study find for ethical yardages for hunting with a xbow?

If you ask me the kids can shoot vertical bows from as young as four or five doing it themselves and learn way more and have more satisfaction than someone loading their xbow and pulling the trigger!
It would also teach the young ones responsibility to work up to shooting 40 lbs before going hunting. now I bet this opens up a can of worms!

Sounds like the handicap rule needs to be revised!!

second the poaching thing is it will just give them one more tool to use, the same guys will do it now with one more quiet weapon.(I guess they already can use it but it would increase where and when they could get away with it) maybe not the inside of the truck but the outside they would work just fine!!

Again I am not against crossbows, just against them in archery only seasons, much like fly only fishing streams don't allow fly rods with bait.
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  #188  
Old 01-21-2007, 01:24 PM
Blades
 
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Default crossbows

"What did your study find for ethical yardages for hunting with a xbow?"
40 yds and under for hunting, mostly due to the noise factor....do what you want for targets

"If you ask me the kids can shoot vertical bows from as young as four or five"
Which is absolutely great way to go,(I never suggested not to teach vertical) however there are lots of people that are smaller in stature (even adults) that cannot pull and hold the required 40LBS to go hunting. So I recommend giving them another option...

"It would also teach the young ones responsibility to work up to shooting 40 lbs before going hunting. now I bet this opens up a can of worms!"
Not really, in fact I would tend to agree on this point.

"Sounds like the handicap rule needs to be revised!!"
Revised?!!!? How about completely rewritten. With horizontal bows in archery season, this would be a non-issue.

"second the poaching thing is it will just give them one more tool to use, "
#1, poachers use whatever they want, regardless of it being legal or not...#2, how many instances of poaching is there with any kind of archery tackle? 'nuff said I think.

Thank-you for your questions and input, sharpstick, I respect your personal decision on horizontal bows, however, I resectfully disagree on where they belong in the regulations.

Todd
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  #189  
Old 01-21-2007, 03:26 PM
sharpstick
 
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Default Re: crossbows

I have to clarify your poaching with archery gear comment............do you think it does not happen??
I also said poachers will use what they want, but if it is not allowed in archery seasons, it is tough to explain a bolt stuck in an animal if caught!!

Blade if an adult can't pull 40 lbs with 80% letoff to go hunting they should probably stay home as they will never get what they shoot in the truck!! I agree with some of your points but that one is stretching it.

another question, 40 yards max, "due to noise" isn't it loss of kinetic energy and poor trajectory due to the physics of the crossbow and the short heavy bolt it shoots!
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  #190  
Old 01-21-2007, 05:13 PM
sheep hunter
 
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Default Re: crossbows

Quote:
I also said poachers will use what they want, but if it is not allowed in archery seasons, it is tough to explain a bolt stuck in an animal if caught!!
So by your reasoning we should outlaw vertical bows and rifles then too? Sharpstick, I was trying to stay out of this but that was one of the most uninformed comments that I've ever heard. Poachers are poachers regardless of weapon so just leave this well enough alone and you won't look so uninformed. Certainly there are arguements on both sides for crossbows but poaching is not one of them. Quit bashing your fellow hunters....leave that to the antis.....
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  #191  
Old 01-21-2007, 05:14 PM
Brady
 
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Default Re: crossbows

Well this discussion keeps going around in circles doesn't it??

Here's my take......when I first started hearing about the crossbow in archery I was like no way.I came to this rather ingnorantly, as I have never been around one, let alone shoot one. These last few discussions on here have been very informative, and some of the things that I thought before, I question my prior stand on this issue. I know we are all entitled to our own thoughts and beliefs, but it is coming clear to me, that some are trying to push their thoughts and beliefs on to all with innaccurate statements. To say that crossbows, if allowed into archery season, will promote poaching is very weak. I think that if someone is going to poach, they will use the tool whether it is legal or not. Kinda like saying to a murderer," you can't shoot me with that gun, it isn't registered".
Another thing that is getting to be very clear, this whole disability thing, I didn't realize it was so hard, and quite honestly, degrading to get a disability permit to use a crossbow. The decision makers of this should be ashamed of themselves.
The ABA has drawn a hard line on the crossbow issue, and I respect that, but the way they go to support their arguement sometimes leaves little to be desired IMHO.

I can't see why we couldn't support an inclusion for the crossbow, but if I were the one making this decision, I would do the studies for 5 years or so, after just to see if there is the difference that some claim. As for myself though, I think I am going to pick one of thes rigs up in a shop, and if permitted take it for a test drive, and see for myself, what shooting this medeval weapon is all about. I doubt I would buy one, as I already wave a wonderfull compound, that I have invested heavily in, but at least I would know what they are all about.
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  #192  
Old 01-21-2007, 07:08 PM
sharpstick
 
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Default Re: crossbows

sheep and brady read my post I too said they will use whatever weapon they want it will just make it easier if xbows are allowed in archery seasons! (look at it from the enforcement side) Oh I guess sheep knows every xbow hunter will not poach!! My bad!
Brady if my comments are inaccurate prove them wrong,I am not pushing anything on anyone, just my opinion, obviously you don't like it!
if people think you can't poach with a vertical bow shake your head.
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  #193  
Old 01-21-2007, 07:17 PM
sharpstick
 
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Default Re: crossbows

Brady as a mod you should not mis quote people, I never said it would "promote" poaching and I was not the one to bring up poaching, just adding to the comment or two before my post!!
But thanks to you and sheep for jumping on me again!! take a breath and read it again, it may make more sense to you!

sorry for the double post hit the wrong button!
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  #194  
Old 01-21-2007, 07:27 PM
Brady
 
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Default Re: crossbows

Sharpstick, get over yourself, I never once said that it was YOU that said that. I was generalizing, as the topic of poaching has come up in these threads by a few different posters. I am just saying that it is very weak to use that as an arguement. Education can go a long way in this issue, and I have been educated quite nicely, by both sides on this thread.
I think you need to take two of them breaths, because in my opinion, you are losing ground here, in your crusade against the crossbow in the archery season. That may be just my opinion though, and not because I am a mod, it is because I am trying to look at this with open eyes.
If crossbows in the bow season, are going to mean that game populations will be decimated, then yes I would say no, but I don't see that happening, with all that has been discussed here.
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  #195  
Old 01-21-2007, 07:55 PM
sheep hunter
 
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Default Re: crossbows

Comments like that make me sick sharpstick......
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  #196  
Old 01-21-2007, 08:33 PM
jrs
 
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Default Re: crossbows

"Blade if an adult can't pull 40 lbs with 80% letoff to go hunting they should probably stay home as they will never get what they shoot in the truck!! I agree with some of your points but that one is stretching it"

Come on, what a stupid thing to say. Why don't you think. I know many capable adults with shoulder disabilities who cannot shoot bow even with that setup.
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  #197  
Old 01-22-2007, 09:43 AM
Blakeinator2
 
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Default Re: crossbows

Sharpy, i would lay money that the smarter poachers will head to the bowzones first....and otherwise wait until december/january to do their thing. I'd lay money that 99% of game poached is with gun...even in bowzones. They know where and when to go to make sure its not likely where and when anyone would expect. As sick as it makes me to find the headless mule deer around town in the fall etc. and to hear all those gunshots in the night while camping in the early fall west of edmonton looking for moose not on draw with archery tackle...almost feel as though we are wasting our time...but anyhow, thats a whole different subject and it really doesn't fit with this discussion...it doesn't matter. They do what they do and we hope they get caught. Such is life. But to lump a crossbow in with it.....like i said before....it won't take anyone long to realize its effectiveness makes it a bow....and therefore most likely just as useless to a poacher.

B
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  #198  
Old 01-22-2007, 10:50 AM
Rackmastr
 
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Default Re: crossbows

I've been reading this for a while and keeping my comments to a minimum, but Sharpstick....you were doing okay for a while until the truly ignorant comments came out...

I have no idea where you get some of your ideas about poaching, enforcement, disabilities, etc.....but you truly should be educated!
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  #199  
Old 01-22-2007, 11:37 AM
bagwan
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: crossbows

Sharpstick. I'm one of those poor fellows who no longer can pull (actually hold) a bow for the practice times needed to stay confident in my abilities to bow hunt. I even bought a new bow last year hoping it would help. I cranked it down to 42 and still couldn't practice enough. Anyway a guy in Fort Sask is happy as he has a kit for 2/3 the price of new. My point is on the 40 lb statement about staying out of the woods. Kind of stupid as I took 3 deer and the wife shot an adult moose and my poor decrepit body got them all in the truck. Thank God for come-a-longs, meat saws and ingenuity. Where theres a will theres a way. Some excellent points have been made on this topic. I for one never considered a cross bow and I would certainly have to try to use one before buying as some of the above good info leaves me to believe they are not for an old fart who borrows his wifes T3 because the Sako75 is getting too heavy.. The funny thing about a bum shoulder (in my case) is that I still have lots of power in other uses, just can't hold the draw even on a modern bow.
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  #200  
Old 01-22-2007, 12:23 PM
sharpstick
 
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Default Re: cressbows

Holy sh#t
Touched a few buttons I guess!!
Everyone can look back as I did not start the poaching thing, just added a comment! Like I said it is a very small aspect of the xbow thing but something to consider if you want to look at the whole picture!
Read the comment and it may make sense, Blades if you think 2 cases of poaching with bows in 25 years is all that has happened, you make me laugh!

Blake at least you are fun, these guys need to discover some ******ons!!

Blades do some research, without KE you don't get penetration, result less cutting. or just look at the last line of your post which is exactly what I said. (I guess I should have said heavy in relation to length)
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  #201  
Old 01-22-2007, 12:24 PM
sheep hunter
 
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Default Re: cressbows

So I ask again sharpstick....should we ban vertical bows and rifles too????? I'm guessing they have been used in cases of poaching too. You know, since we are looking at the big picture here.

Maybe we should register long guns too....I bet that would stop domestic violence and all crimes. Geeze, I've been such an idiot...glad you clarified things for me. Stop crossbows in archery season and there will be no poaching. I can't believe the answer was in my face all this time.

Tell me again how a crossbow is a good poaching weapon. You need to get close, the animal must be tracked after it is shot, it cannot be discharged from a vehicle...???????? I can't see a lot of poachers out following blood trails but maybe you know something I don't.

Sharpstick, there are many reason for and against crossbows in archery season and I think discussing them is good for the hunting community but when hunters start calling other hunters, just because they use a different weapon, poachers, then you are doing a great disservice to all hunters. Stop this crap now as hunting doesn't need it. Man stuff like this ****es me off.
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  #202  
Old 01-22-2007, 12:40 PM
Blades
 
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Default cressbows

"do you think it does not happen??"
never said that.....In my reasearch, I have found 2 instances in the last 25 YEARS. I do not think that even qualifies, statistically.

"Blade if an adult can't pull 40 lbs with 80% letoff to go hunting they should probably stay home as they will never get what they shoot in the truck!! "
Are you goind to deny a quadrapaligic the chance to hunt? Buddies are part of hunting, doncha think?

"other question, 40 yards max, "due to noise" isn't it loss of kinetic energy and poor trajectory due to the physics of the crossbow and the short heavy bolt it shoots! "
NO. Kinetic energy is a red herring when it comes to archery, because an arrow kills by cutting, not transfer of energy to the animal. When was the last time anyone's arrow knocked over an animal, killing it on the spot? Crossbow ARROWS (see my first post) are actually typically LIGHTER than regular arrows because they ARE shorter(both are made from the same materials...aluminum, carbon,etc.) Now, simple ballistics tell us that a heavier projectile will retain energy longer than a lighter one. So the smaller arrow looses energy quicker, and arcs to the ground sooner. Judging distance becomes more and more critical after 40 yds.




Hey Brady........"As for myself though, I think I am going to pick one of thes rigs up in a shop, and if permitted take it for a test drive, and see for myself, what shooting this medeval weapon is all about."
I can help you out there...provided we are close. If you are interested, I will post my e-mail, and trust everyone to be civil with me. We can make contact, and maybe fling some arrows together.

Todd
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  #203  
Old 01-22-2007, 02:22 PM
Blades
 
Posts: n/a
Default crossbows

"Touched a few buttons I guess!!"
Not really...I am enjoying this banter, and I try not to make it seem like personal attacks, I am just trying to respond to the facts. If anyone wants to update my stats, go for it....all I ask for is sources.

"(I guess I should have said heavy in relation to length)"
You better clarify this.....to my thinking, 2 projectiles made of the same material with the same tip,....the shorter one is always lighter.....aren't we comparing a vertical bow arrow to a horizontal bow arrow in performance? Just want to know how you are thinking.

Todd
sry for the mis-spelling on the last topic......finger slipped
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  #204  
Old 01-22-2007, 05:52 PM
Anglinfool
 
Posts: n/a
Default Xbow

You guys are welcome to shoot mine anytime. PM me or email me at anglinfool@hotmail dot com.
I'll be puttig it up for sale fairly soon, so if you want to shoot it, let me know ASAP.
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  #205  
Old 01-23-2007, 08:04 PM
sharpstick
 
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Default Re: Xbow

Sheep relax as often happens you are reading way more into my comment than it was meant......I did not say not allowing xbows would stop poaching.....I am not bashing other hunters as I don't class poachers as hunters!!
It seems to me you think it is impossible to poach with a xbow..or bows in general. I will pm you as I don't think a conversation like that belongs on a public forum...........why give them any ideas!
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  #206  
Old 01-23-2007, 08:48 PM
sharpstick
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Xbow

Blades a 20" bolt that weighs 450 grains, they are heavier but shorter........(440-450 seems to be the standard)
Compare to a 30 inch arrow @ 415 grains longer but lighter!(just happens to be what I shoot)

Bolts are made out of the same materials but they are more grains per inch!!

These are finished arrows with 100 grain broadheads!
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  #207  
Old 01-23-2007, 09:48 PM
Blades
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Xbow

Are you using aluminum arrows? I preferr carbon over aluminum, as carbons do not permanently bend....My 20 inch carbon arrows are only 360 gr., that is with aluminum inserts at both ends(flat alum. nock) and 100gr point. 450gr seems like an awfully heavy arrow...even for aluminum....if you know which company produces this weight for 20 inch arrows, please pass it on. Anyway, this is really a very small point to quibble over, as all extra weight does is create a faster drop rate.....over 40 yds it is easily compensated for....with any bow.

BTW, bolts do not have feathers or vanes.....I shoot arrows from all my bows.

Todd
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  #208  
Old 01-24-2007, 12:02 AM
sharpstick
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Xbow

Blades not quibbling actually curious!
I shoot cx 300 carbons 8.5 grains per inch! 415 grains total arrow, I could go to 5 grains per pound which is 350 grains but prefer the little heavier setup!


What KE do you get, just wondering as what I know about xbows is limited! Just go to cabelas and check out their selection most I saw were advertising 440-450 grains per finished bolt(thats what they call them).
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  #209  
Old 01-24-2007, 01:23 AM
Crossbows are different I think
 
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Default Crossbows are different I think

Anyone on this board can take a xbow and shoot it out of their truck. Different from bows? I thinks so....
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  #210  
Old 01-24-2007, 09:42 AM
Anglinfool
 
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Default Re: Crossbows are different I think

Quote:
Anyone on this board can take a xbow and shoot it out of their truck. Different from bows? I thinks so....
Haha! I'd like to see you shoot one out of your truck!
:rollin
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