The Future of Sheep in Alberta

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

When Geist studied rams in Banff, he found that 50% of rams had died by the time they reached 10.

Quick question of them 50% how many did he find dead? Did he study every herd in the park or just a couple bunches?

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Very nice quick edit TJ. This would be what you said! And im sure exactly where 209 got his statistics a few posts back. nSeems to go exactly together

Darcy, once again your inability to comprehend even the most basic things astounds me. I have no idea what edit you are talking about. My only edit was to add some additional info to my post. The quote you reference above is from a post I made about 5 pages ago, not one I just made and I just confirmed it here, with something I read in Mountain Sheep. As for 209's post, what he read is considerably different from what the bio told me if you actually read his post. From what I know of 209, he is quite capable of reading and forming opinions on his own.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Darcy, once again your inability to comprehend even the most basic things astounds me. I have no idea what edit you are talking about. My only edit was to add some additional info to my post. The quote you reference above is from a post I made about 5 pages ago, not one I just made and I just confirmed it here in a discussion I was having with JasonC. As for 209's post, what he read is considerably different from what the bio told me if you actually read his post.

LOL Your only edit nice try TJ i read the first one you put b4 you edited but thats what ever.
And when JustinC said like 209 and sheephunter say is what I was refering to.
He was disagreeing with how you got the nuimbers here
Ya I guess your right TJ 209 says 50% make 5 and you say 50% make 8 and so on ya I see the considerable difference

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Quick question of them 50% how many did he find dead? Did he study every herd in the park or just a couple bunches?

If Geist says 50% die by 10 then he must have found them dead and aged them. EVERYONE of them. Whos to say some didnt move on to find ewes of there own else where to breed. Whos to say he located each and every ram year after year.
Just because they werent there doesnt always mean they were dead.
Not saying he is wrong but I dont see any one out there being able to keep track of that many rams every year with out having radio collars to tell if they died at certain ages or even died at the times he figured.
Hope im wrong as they spend alot of money on studies but unless you can keep track of every ram for that duration(at least 10 yrs) its pretty tough to say when they all died. As I know there are lots of rams hanging in our parks that are over 10.
SG

You could be right Darcy and I sure don't have the time in the hills that you do but from what I've seen in my limited experience, I'd say that there are at least twice as many one year old rams as there are 10 year old rams in the mountains but I'm sure you know best.

[choclab]

A little off topic but gander said a few posts ago we lost cougar hunting with hounds Sorry but you can still hunt with hounds in Alberta.

[gunslinger]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

If Geist says 50% die by 10 then he must have found them dead and aged them. EVERYONE of them. Whos to say some didnt move on to find ewes of there own else where to breed. Whos to say he located each and every ram year after year.
Just because they werent there doesnt always mean they were dead.
Not saying he is wrong but I dont see any one out there being able to keep track of that many rams every year with out having radio collars to tell if they died at certain ages or even died at the times he figured.
Hope im wrong as they spend alot of money on studies but unless you can keep track of every ram for that duration(at least 10 yrs) its pretty tough to say when they all died. As I know there are lots of rams hanging in our parks that are over 10.
SG

Darcy ive been following this thread every post and you know yourself that we age our stone sheep and dalls at 8 before we even let the guys shoot em, you know yourself that your taking a gamble on that ram living a short few years after age 8. If he makes 10-11 hes a trooper.

Sometimes the arguing gets in the way of the truth but i know that you know that its a great day up on the mountain when you find a 10 year old so you can take em out,because it may be his last year. and i know that you wouldnt let a guy shoot a 8 year 39 inch ram when a 10 year 37 inch ram is standing there.for this reason.

If they live past 8 years old the following years are numbered for sure. And this may be where geist got his numbers.and of course every year after that increases. just my opinion of course.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Hagar

I guess by 209's logic then we better get out and kill a ram before they all die cause we are no better then drunks,pregnant teens,and smokers!

Sorry we disagree Hagar; I was just giving comparable examples of how education without penalty has worked. I'm always open minded to sensible discussion and I admire your passion and refreshing naiveté.
How would a mandatory sheep course recommending shooting older sheep be any different than the hunter training course that new hunters are supposed to have before getting a hunting license?
Just think about what you are proposing. How would you administer the course? The timing and logistics of your course I’m interested in. How many times you would run the course and on what nights in what parts of the province are you available in to teach this? How would the meeting rooms and handbooks/information be paid for? I assume that you are volunteering your time and travel. Since people can buy a sheep tag up to the minute they leave to hunt then you would need to be on call for the course. Or maybe you would have it on the net and you could “trust” that everyone took it, heck that would work! In your world you can trust them to shoot only old sheep once they are educated even though there is no lawful or legal reason to compel them to. Remember, this course while you want it to be mandatory attendance can only tell hunters to shoot what you think they should, not what the law states is legal. How do you even legislate mandatory appearance at a recommendation session or will maybe you'll institute fines for not attending to force people to follow your ethics? Wouldn't that be funny? Get a fine for not attending a course that is comprised of suggestions and doesn't forbid you from whacking the first legal ram you see? Do you see what it is you are proposing?

[Mrs.SheepGuide]

AAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!:rol leye2:

This is just like sitting in a classroom full of grade7 girls! It's actually almost worse.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Mrs.SheepGuide

AAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!:rol leye2:

This is just like sitting in a classroom full of grade7 girls! It's actually almost worse.

With pink shirts on?! That was quite the melt down you had over that comment, foul language and all, I guess that puts you in the "people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" catagory. What do you think? Or did that come off as adult behavior in your house?

[Frans]

Just thought I'd throw in a picture of what we are talking and arguing about :-)


Frans

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Frans

Just thought I'd throw in a picture of what we are talking and arguing about :-)


Frans

Good Picture is that ever a tight curl!

Originally Posted by Frans

Just thought I'd throw in a picture of what we are talking and arguing about :-)


Frans

LOL...nothing to see here...rams that age are almost as common as yearlings.

Hate to see that ram in a full-curl zone....talk about right on the line. He sure is a tight curl though. Good to see a few of those big old boys around.

[depopulator]

Originally Posted by Mrs.SheepGuide

AAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!:rol leye2:

This is just like sitting in a classroom full of grade7 girls! It's actually almost worse.

WTF are you contributing to this thread exactly with this statement ? Do you have anything meaningful to contribute ?

[sheepguide]

Touchy subject there depopulator

And yes rams are gunna have a tougher time reaching 8 than reaching 4 but they do, hundreds do in our parks and mines. Not saying a few arent gunna die as no one can control nature but that is why it has been stated that the first step in this has to be predator control. Without that, and with the increasing number of wolves and cats I beleive you will see sheep numbers start to drop. With a controled predator population there is no justafiable reason that a more mature bunch of rams isnt obtainable.
As far as gunslingers comment well for one stones and dalls live way harsher winters(acounting fr a little higher mortality) and some do also get shot at 6 1/2 and 7 1/2(full curl). Last year we killed 18 rams with an average age of 9 1/2. So there is a sufficent amount make it to an older age as most outfitters in NWT, Yukon, B.C do not shoot a ram under 8 and they have a way higher percentage harvested than we do in Alberta. Not that comparing them sheep or that B.C, Yukon, NWT to alberta is 100% accurate but does show that an older huntable herd is possible!
SG

So Darcy, are you sticking with your story that there wouldn't be two yearling rams for every 10 year old bighorn ram in the mountains or did I sense some back tracking? Of course there are hundreds of 10 year old rams in the mountains...I haven't read anything to the contrary here but I must question your thought that there isn't at least a 2:1 ratio for yearlings to 10 year olds. I know I sure see a lot more yearlings than I do 10 year olds but perhaps I'm hunting the wrong areas. I think sometimes your desire to argue about anything and everything clouds your judgement.

So answer me this one question, do you truly believe that if there are 100 yearling rams on a mountain range that there would be more than 50 10 year old rams. Please tell me even you see how foolish that sounds.

[trashheap]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Stiffer fines and penalties can work both ways. Sure some guys may turn that ram down that he wouldnt have because he knows there are stiffer consiquences but also that guy that does shoot a ram that is short that would normaly turn him self in may be more inclined to rock pile his sheep due to a stiff penalty.

I agree with this, I have said to myself that I will not shoot a sqeeker for this reason. I have heard, and it might just be gossip around the people I have talked with but there are alot of rams every year that get shot and walked away from because they are too short. I for one world not pull the trigger if they are this close but I know not everyone feels this way. I'm not sure how the athorities are supposed to police every mountain and valley. It is impossible to do this in non mountain terrain. If people shoot and then go look, even more younger rams die every year.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

So Darcy, are you sticking with your story that there wouldn't be two yearling rams for every 10 year old bighorn ram in the mountains or did I sense some back tracking? Of course there are hundreds of 10 year old rams in the mountains...I haven't read anything to the contrary here but I must question your thought that there isn't at least a 2:1 ratio for yearlings to 10 year olds. I know I sure see a lot more yearlings than I do 10 year olds but perhaps I'm hunting the wrong areas. I think sometimes your desire to argue about anything and everything clouds your judgement.

So answer me this one question, do you truly believe that if there are 100 yearling rams on a mountain range that there would be more than 50 10 year old rams. Please tell me even you see how foolish that sounds.

Id like to place a number on how many yearling rams make it to a certain age but just like you I have no way of actually knowing how many make it.
Sure alot of them yearlings dont make it to 10 but alot dont make it to 2.
The thing is we arent talking here about a yearling making it to 10. We are discussing a 5 1/2 or 6 1/2 year old ram making it to 8. These are years in their prime. Sure not all survive, no one is stating that and the only way anyone can say is if they collard a bunch of 5 1/2 year olds and monitored them.
No one has stated that no younger rams should be shot either just find a way to possibly lower that number. Not just shoot them because they arent gunna make it anyhow.
SG

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Id like to place a number on how many yearling rams make it to a certain age but just like you I have no way of actually knowing how many make it.
Sure alot of them yearlings dont make it to 10 but alot dont make it to 2.
The thing is we arent talking here about a yearling making it to 10. We are discussing a 5 1/2 or 6 1/2 year old ram making it to 8. These are years in their prime. Sure not all survive, no one is stating that and the only way anyone can say is if they collard a bunch of 5 1/2 year olds and monitored them.
No one has stated that no younger rams should be shot either just find a way to possibly lower that number. Not just shoot them because they arent gunna make it anyhow.
SG

Accordng to Geist, 97% make it to two years old. It seems mortality really starts to increase between 7 and 10 which is exactly what the bio in the Yukon told me. The same statement you mocked but now seem to be agreeing with.

I know you can't give exact numbers Darcy but in your vast experience in the Rockies of Alberta, can you honestly say that you've seen less that two yearling rams for every 10 year old you saw? It's a pretty simple question that doesn't require the long-winded answers you've been trying to divert attention with above.

I never once said we should shoot them because they were going to die anyhow. I was just offering an explaination why we see more young rams in the mountains than old rams. You've already quoted that statement out of context so I understand your confusion. Put it back in context and tell me I'm wrong.

[Gulo gulo]

I don't have Geist's book in front of me, but from what I remember 83% of the rams in Banff made it to 6 and like Sheephunter says about 50% made it to 10. This means that natural mortality is actually very low as only 17% of the rams died by age six. Then natural mortality increases dramatically as the rams mature and start to breed and fight. I would like to know of another big game species that has 50% of its male animals alive at age 10???

The simply fact is that in most wmu's in the province only about 10% make it to past 7 years of age. Most rams killed by hunters are between 5 and 7 years of age.

I am not trying to start any fights here nor am I trying to implicated any sort of restrictions or management strategy; I'm just want to accurately depict the biology of the species.

I totally agree Gulo...understanding natural mortality and age structure is the cornerstone of developing a management strategy for managing a "trophy" hunt.

[SLH]

Originally Posted by 209x50

I truly doubt it. I wish I could say I believed the idea had a chance but when I look at the abject failure that education programs like drinking and driving, stop smoking, diet, teen pregnancy, and so on are I can't see sheep U having a shot.
One statistic I found interesting was a study I read that showed that natural causes killed off 40 to 50% of the ram year class every year. So 60% go from 3.5 to 4.5 and 50% of those make it the next year and so on.

You do realize that drinking and driving charges, the number of smokers and the rate of teen pregnancy are all down in the last 15 years don't you. Education programs do work!

[walking buffalo]

The focus on this thread seems to remain confined to horn size and hunter management. Other management tools regarding a healthy populaton of sheep including mature rams have been mentioned , but not discussed.

We all seem to accept that predation and habitat are important factors relating to sheep survival. It is well documented that sheep populations are most vigorous (high birth rates and large horned rams) when the herd has good winter range and is not overly stressed with predation.

There seems to be a reduction in wintering ground quality and size in many areas, often due to forest encroachment, resulting in less forage and higher predation rates. Habitat managment takes time to produce results, but is proven to increase herd vitality. Predators ( wolves cougars and bears), are increasing rapidly in Alberta, and are having a significant impact on ungulates, including sheep. Predation can be reduced very quickly, but our govt. has become scared of wolves (more accurately wolf advocates).

The govt. realizes that at present it is easier and less expensive to manage people than habitat and animals. The discussion here is becoming focused on the same thing.

I suggest we spend some of our time on this thread talking about other avenues to reach our desired goal, more sheep and larger, mature rams.

The govt. realizes that at present it is easier and less expensive to manage people than habitat and animals. The discussion here is becoming focused on the same thing.

I suggest we spend some of our time on this thread talking about other avenues to reach our desired goal, more sheep and larger, mature rams.

Bravo! Very well said.

Not only does the government turn a blind eye to predator management, in some areas they actually discourage it. On Wind, Pigeon and Allen Mountains, K-Country's prime winter/lambing range, the areas are closed to humans from Dec 1 to June 15, basically shutting out cougar, wolf and bear hunters.

There is so much more that could be done without further restricting hunters but it seems hunters are so willing to help the government do this. It's time we demand better game management and not hunter management.

[trashheap]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

The focus on this thread seems to remain confined to horn size and hunter management. Other management tools regarding a healthy populaton of sheep including mature rams have been mentioned , but not discussed.

We all seem to accept that predation and habitat are important factors relating to sheep survival. It is well documented that sheep populations are most vigorous (high birth rates and large horned rams) when the herd has good winter range and is not overly stressed with predation.

There seems to be a reduction in wintering ground quality and size in many areas, often due to forest encroachment, resulting in less forage and higher predation rates. Habitat managment takes time to produce results, but is proven to increase herd vitality. Predators ( wolves cougars and bears), are increasing rapidly in Alberta, and are having a significant impact on ungulates, including sheep. Predation can be reduced very quickly, but our govt. has become scared of wolves (more accurately wolf advocates).

The govt. realizes that at present it is easier and less expensive to manage people than habitat and animals. The discussion here is becoming focused on the same thing.

I suggest we spend some of our time on this thread talking about other avenues to reach our desired goal, more sheep and larger, mature rams.

Thank you!!! Can't agree more.

[sheepguide]

dtc_261_tif.gif

Last sentance says quite a bit TJ

Also states that natural mortality of rams over 3 is 10% annually not 50% as you stated.

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Attachment 19369

Last sentance says quite a bit TJ

Good info Darcy. So what you are saying is that the survival rates are even lower than suggested by Geist. After reading that, it's amazing any rams make it to 10 years old. I guess what 209 read could very well be true then. Good to see you believing in science

Also states that natural mortality of rams over 3 is 10% annually not 50% as you stated.

Actually I never said anything like that...you really need to slow down a read what I post

But at 10% annually from age 3, that sure doesn't leave many rams that make it to 10. An interesting study for sure. Thanks for confirming that few rams make it to 10 years old.

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Good info Darcy. So what you are saying is that the survival rates are even lower than suggested by Geist. After reading that, it's amazing any rams make it to 10 years old. I guess what 209 read could very well be true then. Good to see you believing in science



Actually I never said anything like that...you really need to slow down a read what I post

But at 10% annually from age 3, that sure doesn't leave many rams that make it to 10. An interesting study for sure. Thanks for confirming that few rams make it to 10 years old.

Shows though that if we let 100 rams walk at 5 1/2 (as we arent dealing with any other ages other than 5 1/2 to 8 1/2 really) there will be roughly 72.9 rams or 73% make it to 8 1/2. Maybe im not a scholar by any means but that is a fairly decent survival rate.

You keep bringing up 10yr old rams and no one has stated we should leave them till 10

[sheepguide]

And them numbers are probably low as the documents states that its 10% of rams over 3 so it will be less than 10% when just targeting 5 1/2 to 8 1/2 year olds.

[SLH]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

But at 10% annually from age 3, that sure doesn't leave many rams that make it to 10. An interesting study for sure. Thanks for confirming that few rams make it to 10 years old.

I'm not sure either of you know what you're talking about anymore. 10% mortality is less than 50% mortality. If you start with 100 at 10% mortality you end up with around 45 10 year old rams (Natural Mortality only) @ 50% you end up with less than 1.