Sheep Part 3

[209x50]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

SG, please take some time and read the pages I linked earlier. This is what is happening in B.C. in an area experimenting with age related harvest of Bighorn rams. It is not going well; reduced hunter opportunity, increased illegal harvest, and court cases.
http://www.huntingbc.ca/forum/showth...Spences+Bridge

A disaster for sure and some people think this would be good in Alberta? Moronic!

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

SG, did you just not read my post, or did you read it and not understand any of it? Or is it that you believe the sky is red.

What part do you think that I dont understand? That a ram that is turned down at 5 1/2 wont make 8? Rams are surviving is harsher climates in northern alberta to make legal and with just as much oppertunity as anywhere so im sure in as you guys stated in the chinook belt this should be able to be acheived at a higher level.

Or is it the part where you said I wanted to put punitive restrictions on hunting? I simply figure that a wait period is way better that a draw or lifetime number restriction.

Maybe the part where you state that older rams are there as some are killed every year? Sure there is but Its possible to increase this number and lower the younger ram harvest.

Tell me which part i missunderstood .

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by 209x50

A disaster for sure and some people think this would be good in Alberta? Moronic!

Maybe 209 you should try and discuss stuff instead of saying peoples thoughts are moronic and laughing!!

[Vindalbakken]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

What part do you think that I dont understand? That a ram that is turned down at 5 1/2 wont make 8? Rams are surviving is harsher climates in northern alberta to make legal and with just as much oppertunity as anywhere so im sure in as you guys stated in the chinook belt this should be able to be acheived at a higher level.

There will be less rams available to hunters if you wait till they are older to harvest them. Do you understand compensatory vs. additive mortality?

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Or is it the part where you said I wanted to put punitive restrictions on hunting? I simply figure that a wait period is way better that a draw or lifetime number restriction.

You don't understand that they are all punitive.

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Maybe the part where you state that older rams are there as some are killed every year? Sure there is but Its possible to increase this number and lower the younger ram harvest.

You don't understand there is no way to accomplish this without compromising resident hunter opportunity.

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Tell me which part i missunderstood .

All of it? You followed up my post with much chest beating and proclamations of "I am right" when the post clearly illustrated where and how you were wrong.
I will admit though that you are right when you say that 8 year old rams will have bigger horns than 4 year old rams in the same region. (or did you say that?)

[sheepguide]

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

There will be less rams available to hunters if you wait till they are older to harvest them. Do you understand compensatory vs. additive mortality?

You don't understand that they are all punitive.

You don't understand there is no way to accomplish this without compromising resident hunter opportunity.

All of it?

Well thats your opinion.
So as TJ and some have stated rams in the northern part are older when legal 7 1/2 to 8. There is a general season and hunters are doing well in these zones, exactly like they are in the south. 8 years old is 8 years old no matter what part of the province you are in. They must live over 7 to get there no matter where they are! So the same results can be obtained in the whole province.
Going by what your saying guys in the Wilmore and northern portions have less oppertunity than anywhere else. Nice try!!! They have exactly the same oppertunity as anywhere else.

They have no choice but to wait till the rams are older and that is working. They harvest a decent number of rams and are compareable to the rest of the province. Putting an 8 year old restriction on makes it exactly the same as weighting till the are 8 to get enough curl. Either way you wait till there 8.


To me you dont quite understand.

SG

[Vindalbakken]

The sky is red.

[sheepguide]

Why would enough rams make it old enough in the north but not in the south Vin?

[ishootbambi]

dont you guys see that everyone here is right? sg, you want older rams for every place in the province. you have shown evidence to say that they can come from all places in alberta where sheep live. tj, you want higher scoring rams. you have said sheep average bigger in the south. that is proven as the rams killed in the south are on average younger and killed as soon as they are legal. they die at 4 or 5 where wilmore rams in particular arent legal until 7. the high number of rams that come from wilmore, and are 7 shows that plenty of rams will live that long. if they didnt suffer accute lead poisoning the moment they become legal they would live longer yet. that was the topic of this discussion from the get go. how to put bigger more mature sheep on the mountain. it is unanimous that the only proven way to do this is to stop killing small young rams which means a draw. it seems that the majority does not want to give up any opportunity to make it happen. hagar, you think increase education would help stop short sheep from being killed. you are likely right too, but it seems to be agreed that the penalty for a mistake would be equally effective. vin, you kinda took a little of each of these points and backed up your statements. you are right too. each view here has a slightly different angle, but they are pretty well all valid, so i dont get the hostility???? the only exception here is 209. in 3 threads now regarding sheep, you have yet to bring up any new ideas. you continually slam everyone here for any suggestion or comment and run like thunder from any direct question. and lately, the name calling has begun....slyly and indirect, but i think "moronic " was the word. really dude?

[sheepguide]

Thanks ishootbambi I think that is a good point we have all been overlooking.
Everyone has ideas on how to make things work and everyone has thoughts on why the other guys ideas wont work. Maybe they all can work to a point.
No one really know unless it is tried and prooven. The studies show stats but studies are some times disprooven.

To Vin and sheephunter I listen to every word you guys say and whether it seems like it or not I do value your opinion. I know SH has vast experience in sheep and has good opinions. I dont always or very seldom agree but thats his opinions! I know nothing about Vin as he hasnt posted much on his back ground but I do know that he has a great thesaurus in his head
Hope to have more great discusions in the future with both of you but this thread is over for me!!!

Cheers

SG

[Tonto]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

dont you guys see that everyone here is right? sg, you want older rams for every place in the province. you have shown evidence to say that they can come from all places in alberta where sheep live. tj, you want higher scoring rams. you have said sheep average bigger in the south. that is proven as the rams killed in the south are on average younger and killed as soon as they are legal. they die at 4 or 5 where wilmore rams in particular arent legal until 7. the high number of rams that come from wilmore, and are 7 shows that plenty of rams will live that long. if they didnt suffer accute lead poisoning the moment they become legal they would live longer yet. that was the topic of this discussion from the get go. how to put bigger more mature sheep on the mountain. it is unanimous that the only proven way to do this is to stop killing small young rams which means a draw. it seems that the majority does not want to give up any opportunity to make it happen. hagar, you think increase education would help stop short sheep from being killed. you are likely right too, but it seems to be agreed that the penalty for a mistake would be equally effective. vin, you kinda took a little of each of these points and backed up your statements. you are right too. each view here has a slightly different angle, but they are pretty well all valid, so i dont get the hostility???? the only exception here is 209. in 3 threads now regarding sheep, you have yet to bring up any new ideas. you continually slam everyone here for any suggestion or comment and run like thunder from any direct question. and lately, the name calling has begun....slyly and indirect, but i think "moronic " was the word. really dude?

x2
sorry, but that's all I can add right now as any other suggestions have been called idiotic, moronic or posted by hand wringing old ladies. So, I may as well not post.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

dont you guys see that everyone here is right? sg, you want older rams for every place in the province. you have shown evidence to say that they can come from all places in alberta where sheep live. tj, you want higher scoring rams. you have said sheep average bigger in the south. that is proven as the rams killed in the south are on average younger and killed as soon as they are legal. they die at 4 or 5 where wilmore rams in particular arent legal until 7. the high number of rams that come from wilmore, and are 7 shows that plenty of rams will live that long. if they didnt suffer accute lead poisoning the moment they become legal they would live longer yet. that was the topic of this discussion from the get go. how to put bigger more mature sheep on the mountain. it is unanimous that the only proven way to do this is to stop killing small young rams which means a draw. it seems that the majority does not want to give up any opportunity to make it happen. hagar, you think increase education would help stop short sheep from being killed. you are likely right too, but it seems to be agreed that the penalty for a mistake would be equally effective. vin, you kinda took a little of each of these points and backed up your statements. you are right too. each view here has a slightly different angle, but they are pretty well all valid, so i dont get the hostility???? the only exception here is 209. in 3 threads now regarding sheep, you have yet to bring up any new ideas. you continually slam everyone here for any suggestion or comment and run like thunder from any direct question. and lately, the name calling has begun....slyly and indirect, but i think "moronic " was the word. really dude?

For all your careful reading you miss a lot, or are just biased. You think modeling a program after the BC one is brilliant? No it would be stupid.
The course which started as way to enlighten hunters to kill only older rams has now morphed into length judging and conservation. In my day I've seen enough politicians run programs with hidden agendas to see this one coming for a mile.
bambi I've said continually and this the part you like to skip, show me a problem and I'll give you an opinion.
That aside I know and this has been proven everywhere that predator and habitat management would very successfully improve the sheep herd, whether it needs it or not. No dangerous and expensive experiments, no hidden agendas just straight forward proven common sense. Are you against predator and habitat management?
Now bambi any part of that you don't understand? Would you like me to repeat any of it? I've been saying predator and habitat management for a long time, it is only the flaky ideas put forward that manage hunters and further restrict our freedoms that I'm against.
Capish?

[SLH]

Originally Posted by 209x50

That aside I know and this has been proven everywhere that predator and habitat management would very successfully improve the sheep herd, whether it needs it or not. No dangerous and expensive experiments, no hidden agendas just straight forward proven common sense. Are you against predator and habitat management?
Now bambi any part of that you don't understand? Would you like me to repeat any of it? I've been saying predator and habitat management for a long time, it is only the flaky ideas put forward that manage hunters and further restrict our freedoms that I'm against.
Capish?

WOW you are something, ever hear the phrase "Extending an Olive Branch".

ishoot I do appreciate your post puts a lot of things in perspective

209 your are assuming that your two pet peeves are the limiting factor, do you have proof of that. The reality of the situation is that there are many things affecting the herd all of which have been stated int the past 1500 posts. What we need is to allow SRD biologists to do their jobs without interference from politicians and outside interest groups.

If what you said about your freinds at the federation is true tell them for me to keep up the good work keep coming up with ideas but don't for one second beleive that they have any ideas better than the rest of us that need to be pushed behind closed doors. Keep it public including their own membership.

For the head biologist that was suggesting this change with basically a couple of meetings with some sheep hunters, give your head a shake I know a couple of the bios in my neck of the woods and they are very capable of making these decisions for the good of everyone not just tree huggers, hunters or outfitters, everyone.

All of this, every last bit of it is in the Management Plan that has been sitting around for a while now. Follow the damn thing and all of this will work itself out. New Minister Guy free up some money from the money pit that is beetle control and give some to the sheep for habitat improvement, monitoring and surveys for the next 5 years. That would be a pilot project I could get behind.

Finally when something happens with the likes of the orginal picture on this thread it is our resposibility to try and educate and be proactive. Catch and release didn't start as a govt requirement, concerned people started doing it on there own for the betterment of the herd. There is more to sheep hunting than the killing!

[209x50]

WOW you are something, ever hear the phrase "Extending an Olive Branch".

Sure do and I'll recognize it when i see it.

209 your are assuming that your two pet peeves are the limiting factor, do you have proof of that.

Sure do there have been plenty of links posted to the studies as well. You must have read the sheep river study?

If what you said about your freinds at the federation is true tell them for me to keep up the good work keep coming up with ideas but don't for one second beleive that they have any ideas better than the rest of us that need to be pushed behind closed doors. Keep it public including their own membership.

I told them how I felt you should as well.

Catch and release didn't start as a govt requirement, concerned people started doing it on there own for the betterment of the herd

Sorry terrible, terrible comparison on several levels which I won't clutter this thread with.

[albertadave]

Originally Posted by sheepguide

Well if your actually serious there is good reason for an education coarse!

Just a tad short and I dont beleive there is much luck in the far side streaching to the line either.

Hard to see the exact start of the base but I think im pretty close.
Attachment 19445

Here's a question, are status indians restricted to 4/5 in a 4/5 zone, or full curl in a full curl zone? Do they have to get their rams plugged? Maybe it shouldn't be assumed that this guy was white?

What we need is to allow SRD biologists to do their jobs without interference from politicians and outside interest groups.

That scares the heck out of me. It's often the special interest groups that keep the bios in line. Not all bios have the best interest of hunters at heart and without special interest groups to keep them in line, we'd be in a heap of trouble. The special interest groups just need to be accountable to their members and only bring forward ideas agreed upon by the membership. I think this ill-conceived 5-year wait is a classic example of how out of touch some of the bios can be.

SLH, even you have to agree that predators and habitat are limiting factors for our sheep populations. Sure, there could be others but addressing these first seem prudent as they have the least impact on hunters and from the studies I've read, they are likely to have to most positive results for our sheep too. So many people in this thread are resigned to the fact that we have to chose one of the ideas that restrict hunter opportunity. I say why? My idea is to quit rolling over and playing dead and stand up for what's right on this one and from my perspective, right is not taking away hunting opportunity. It was interesting to see how quickly that SRD backed away from the 5-year wait when they faced a bit of opposition and where challenged to provide some evidence that it would work. That indicates to me that hunters may not be the real problem...it was just an easy solution for SRD. Sorry, but I'm not willing to accept everything they shove at me. Loss of hunter opportunity should be the last resort...not the first. That's my idea.

Finally when something happens with the likes of the orginal picture on this thread it is our resposibility to try and educate and be proactive.

Maybe our responsibility should be to congratulate a fellow hunter for working hard and shooting a legal ram and stop belittling his accomplishment. Or is that the education part you we talking about? We should educate hunters to quit feeding on their own and be more proactive in celebrating our fellow hunters' successes. Please tell me that's what you meant.

[Cowtown guy]

I am all for trying to get some older rams on the mountain also. The problem I have with it is that it is very difficult to try and age these dark horned buggers on the hoof. Uphill, downhill 400 yards away.....I know many folks that have a hard go of it from up close. I have even been in a discussion a few years ago at the sportsman show where there were some sheep on display. The fellas in the booth were in a minor disagreement on the age of one of the rams. These guys should know their stuff. Both fellas had great points but both wouldn't agree with the other about one of the age rings.
I know we are talking more education to help with this stuff but it can lead to disaster for a fella, if a ram is shot at 7 instead of 8. Especially since they are both mature as it is.
So where does it all go from here? That's the big question. As for all the arguing that goes on here.....Is the government really listening? Are we going to alienate fellow or future sheep hunters only to have the government do as it wants as they tend to do with most stuff?

So where does it all go from here? That's the big question. As for all the arguing that goes on here.....Is the government really listening? Are we going to alienate fellow or future sheep hunters only to have the government do as it wants as they tend to do with most stuff?

Hey cowtown...no doubt that some of the arguing on here is pointless but there is a whole silent majority out there that glean a lot of info from these threads and then act. The fact that the five-year wait being considered by F&W was dropped so quickly after it appeard here spoke volumes to me. Guys like Corrigan were flooded with e-mails after the topic showed up on AO and obviously they listened because they abandoned the idea pretty quickly. Without this board, the first most hunters would have heard of it would have been in the 2010 Hunting Regs.

These threads are closely monitored by F&W and while the threads themselves may or may not make a difference, the follow up by concerned hunters sure does. It's been great to see some new posters on this one that have brought a lot of very hard scientific evidence to this topic. I hope they stay around. A lot of people are following up on what they say to form an informed opinion on topics such as this and then follow up by voicing their concerns to F&W.

This messageboard is a far more important voice and tool than many believe and it's that silent majority that speak the greatest volume.

[Vindalbakken]

Originally Posted by Cowtown guy

only to have the government do as it wants as they tend to do with most stuff?

That is the status quo in this province, isn't it. If there is a dollar to be made.... and you can be sure that the APOS is letting the appropriate authorities know how a "lack" of mature rams is hurting the province financially.

[Cowtown guy]

That is good to hear TJ. I think this board is a pretty decent cross section of Albertans that genuinely give a crap about our resource.
Sadly, I think we are a minority. Too many will just blindly stumble forward and do as they always have. If the over thinkers are really out there listening I do feel better.
I'll admit I don't know hardly squat about sheep. That being said, I do think I am better informed solely from the past few threads that have been on here. Even if they were locked down after awhile.
Please everyone keep this one civil. There are alot of great things that come out in these threads and the rest of us can learn a bunch.
One day I'll get out there. Still waiting for the defibrillator that I can use on myself.

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Cowtown guy

Please everyone keep this one civil. There are alot of great things that come out in these threads and the rest of us can learn a bunch.
One day I'll get out there. Still waiting for the defibrillator that I can use on myself.

I think everyone has learned something new on these sheep threads. Keep it up!

Cowtown guy, No more excuses for not sheep hunting.

http://defibrillatorsforsale.com/

[Huntnut]

Originally Posted by SLH

What we need is to allow SRD biologists to do their jobs without interference from politicians and outside interest groups.

You know what the first thing that came to my mind when I read that? The caribou hunt that has been shut down int the NWT. They did a bang up job there didn't they.

[packhuntr]

Huntnut, I cant pretend to know much about it, but whats to say they didnt do a bang up job with regards to some of those herds? The name of the game is Conservation. If the latest in scientific data is showing that sport hunting might not be helping said herds right now, why not do whats best for the resource for the time being if our actions are shown to be capable of having even a slight impact?? That said, I do hope those matters have a fast turn around time and that hunt is re-instated soon (keeping the well being and sustainablity of the herd the priority).

[LongDraw]

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

That is the status quo in this province, isn't it. If there is a dollar to be made.... and you can be sure that the APOS is letting the appropriate authorities know how a "lack" of mature rams is hurting the province financially.

Vindal hit the nail on the head.

As well FNAWS Alberta chapter thinks that a 5 year wait would be a good thing; APOS and FNAWS seem to have a similar agenda when it comes to changes to "resident" sheep hunting management..

Keep the current 2 year wait and the curl restriction as it is. Focus on habitat enhancement and predator control where needed. Eliminate OHV's in the 400 series zones that currently allow it and introduce some more late season opportunities on a restricted draw and maybe a draw in the Parks that we have lost over the years.

[Full Curl Earl]

As stated earlier, Northern Rams take time to get to 4/5ths! This rams is 1 1/2 inches past legal and 8 1/2 years old. Regardless of what one thinks about the horn size, killing an 8 1/2 year old Veteran ram is an accomplishment. Having big horns when it comes to sheep, does not necessarily mean it's intelligent! Those big broomed Southern rams sure look regall when compared to a 4/5ths Northern Ram, but really it's like comparing Jr. High dropouts to Rocket Scientists! lol

[Huntnut]

Not to get off the sheep topic but to answer your question pack I have a friend that guides at up there-(well used to now) he says that yes there are less caribou now but the way that they counted the caribou is not accurate, and that the fact that they-(the biologists) think that hunting has a big influence on the herds is wrong. There are more caribou lost to predators-(which are not contolled I believe) and habitat loss then anything but the bio's are blaming hunting. I'm sure if you ask Tundra Monkey he could tell you more accurate info-(mine is all second hand). My friend believes alot of the cancellation of caribou hunting is politecal more then anything. The reason for my remark on the bio's in the above post is about 10-12 years ago I was doing some forestry work up the sheep creek road by Grande Cache and the bio's were doing a study on bull trout. After a couple of conversations with a couple of them it was obvious that they were not supportive of hunting. So to let the bio's make decisions without input from outside groups-(mainly hunters) is imho a mistake.

[Huntnut]

Originally Posted by Rocks

From my experience and I'm by no means an expert non-mine Willmore rams don't reach 4/5ths until 7.5 yrs. Just talked to a guide for one of the outfitters there and he said 7.5 to 8.5 is the average for just legal rams. Those Kakwa rams are a little different than the ones in the Willmore and I wouldn't doubt the 8.5 number is right.

I remember when the mine was shut down and there was open access before they brought in the 444/446 draw, after all the big rams got shot up, all the 4.5 yr olds were getting taken because on the mine only they were 4/5ths at 4.5 years old. Just goes to show you how good feed makes for good horn growth.

You spend more time in there then me Rocks so I can't argue with you but just my experience is of 6 rams from the Wilmore 3 were 7.5 or older and the other 3 ranged from 4.5-6.5.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by LongDraw

Vindal hit the nail on the head.

As well FNAWS Alberta chapter thinks that a 5 year wait would be a good thing; APOS and FNAWS seem to have a similar agenda when it comes to changes to "resident" sheep hunting management..

Keep the current 2 year wait and the curl restriction as it is. Focus on habitat enhancement and predator control where needed. Eliminate OHV's in the 400 series zones that currently allow it and introduce some more late season opportunities on a restricted draw and maybe a draw in the Parks that we have lost over the years.

LD it is a one year wait, but otherwise very sensible suggestions. See bambi I do agree with some suggestions.

[Rocks]

Originally Posted by Huntnut

You spend more time in there then me Rocks so I can't argue with you but just my experience is of 6 rams from the Wilmore 3 were 7.5 or older and the other 3 ranged from 4.5-6.5.

Ya just seems like of the rams I've seen most are around that 7.5 and just legal, I did see one 6.5 yr old but boy he was a squeaker. Saw a few 4.5 year old ones that were legal but they came off the mine, I passed a couple of them up as they were just squeakers. Were the 4-6 year old ones you saw from the mine or out in the park?

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by 209x50

For all your careful reading you miss a lot, or are just biased. You think modeling a program after the BC one is brilliant? No it would be stupid.
The course which started as way to enlighten hunters to kill only older rams has now morphed into length judging and conservation. In my day I've seen enough politicians run programs with hidden agendas to see this one coming for a mile.
bambi I've said continually and this the part you like to skip, show me a problem and I'll give you an opinion.
That aside I know and this has been proven everywhere that predator and habitat management would very successfully improve the sheep herd, whether it needs it or not. No dangerous and expensive experiments, no hidden agendas just straight forward proven common sense. Are you against predator and habitat management?
Now bambi any part of that you don't understand? Would you like me to repeat any of it? I've been saying predator and habitat management for a long time, it is only the flaky ideas put forward that manage hunters and further restrict our freedoms that I'm against.
Capish?

ok, now that i have your attention how about an answer to any of the direct questions sent your way over the last 3 threads. a few were "have you killed only 2 rams lifetime?" and "did they come from cadomin?" dont forget "have you hunted sheep anywhere other than cadomin?" and the easist one "where did you register your sheep?" there were dozens directly asked to you, but im not going to bother looking them all up as i dont believe you will answer now like you didnt then. yes predator control would be a great thing....not just for sheep, but all prey species...elk....deer...moose, dont forget things we dont hunt like hares, martens, or fishers as well as predators smaller than the wolves and cougars, as . improvements to habitat would also be great for several species. i never said it was not a good idea so nice try. and it is nice to see you not crap on someones suggestion for once...atta boy! as for showing you a problem....well a few issues brought up were having more big mature rams around the province, and the killing of short sheep. i suppose it is debatable if those are problems by definition of the word problem, but it is what the discussion has been about from page 1. the title of the first sheep discussion was after all "sheep on a draw". any part of that you dont understand? want me to repeat it?
as for sheep on a draw, i am not against it. go back and look as my suggestion was definitely to have some areas of the province on a draw. not all, but some. if we could get more areas available that are currently off limits to hunting even better. the situation with mule deer where i live is a perfect example. back in the 80's mule deer were wide open on a general tag but had to be 3 points. everyone could hunt, but very few shot mule deer, and almost all were small. sounds like sheep huh? then things changed. it happened under a mountain of protest, but they went to a draw and fewer could hunt, but within 2 years there were 4 pointers everywhere. 2 more years went by and there were legitimately big mule deer out there. the alberta records were rewritten through the 90's because of the draw. fewer hunters each year made for a better quality hunt for those drawn. personally i would gladly give up some opportuinity for sheep hunting and i still believe it is a good idea. as a guy successful in the draws at cadomin, i would think you of anyone could see how that could work. the wails of protest about lost opportunity show the the majority here on this forum at least dont want that. thankfully, noone has called me stupid for suggesting it and i havent called anyone stupid for rejecting it. after a lot of thought, i have a new add on to the draw deal. just like mule deer, maybe have a general archery only season before the draw tags open. for sure less sheep would die, but guys who need to climb mountains still can. i hope thats not stupid or moronic.
lets try one more question while im at it. have you ever hunted sheep on a general tag and away from the mines at cadomin?

[LongDraw]

Originally Posted by 209x50

LD it is a one year wait, but otherwise very sensible suggestions. See bambi I do agree with some suggestions.

I know 1 year wait, not sure why I typed 2 year?