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  #241  
Old 07-01-2010, 07:08 AM
Rafter Rafter is offline
 
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Originally Posted by ishootbambi View Post
did you hear about the same guy that i know? not one of the guys in the court case, but a metis of convenience who shot 4 rams in the first year of the imha, and sold 3 of them?

No have not heard that one.

Whats their names, where and when did this occur, how much did they get for the heads, who bought the heads, what is the F&W take on this???????????F&W must be aware of this as they would have to plug them

Please fill us all in.
  #242  
Old 07-01-2010, 08:55 AM
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Walleyes

Aboriginals fought in both World Wars and the Korean war so that all Canadians enjoy freedom.

Indians actually had to give up their status when they joined up.

Rafter

Yah and your point is what ??? there were no white guys that died in these wars ??? just natives ???
  #243  
Old 07-01-2010, 09:02 AM
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Yah and your point is what ??? there were no white guys that died in these wars ??? just natives ???
The white guys were well recognized for their sacrifice and came home to a life very different than the ones that the Indians returned to...
  #244  
Old 07-01-2010, 09:43 AM
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The white guys were well recognized for their sacrifice and came home to a life very different than the ones that the Indians returned to...
Many white veterans were not recognised either. The issue lies more in where they returned to rather than who they were. Many natives returned to isolated communities out of touch and or reach of main stream society. As did many white soldier's the big difference is is that the communities recognised their soldiers on their own for many years it was the towns and the communities that held a high status of their veterans if the native communities failed to recognise their veterans well I guess that is an issue they should deal with how is that a government issue ??? Our communities made clubs and groups on their own ( Legion Halls ) what did the natives create for their veterans ?? How and why is it always up to someone else to help them. I come from a community with a very high native population and in the local Legion there were many metis veterans any of them that wanted to be part of it were,, those that chose to live out their lives in seclusion did so as did many white veterans and dealt with their issues on their own. Many, many a veteran in this country dealt with their demons not just the natives it just seems worse for the natives because once again its a crutch that they use to extort more attention. This poor poor us routine is getting old already.. When are these communities going to take responsibility for themselves and quit blaming everyone else...
  #245  
Old 07-01-2010, 10:25 AM
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we have come a bit off topic,..but still on track,..

I'm not referring to the communities they returned to,..i am referring to what they received upon return..

How about you research what was promised and was actually received.

About 1 in 3 of every able bodied Indian enlisted in the First world War...

do you know what year they were recognized for their contribution in Ottawa?

Here is a little quote about the centotaph,...yup that's right...1992 they were allowed to show respect to their fallen comrades like evryone else.

"As a result, the native contribution to the Western world's freedom went largely unreported and unnoticed. It is only recently that native veterans have begun to be heard. In fact it was not until November 11, 1992, that native veterans were permitted to place a wreath at the cenotaph during memorial services. Traditionally they had to wait until the conclusion of the official service before showing respect for their fellow comrades "

I'm not all about handouts and I believe in personal responsibility for ones own direction...but this is not a simple little thing. It is a long complex history that resulted largely in what we have today.

I remember having a chat with a Chief once...

He was very nice and very understanding of all things...

He mentioned the "drunken lazy Indian"

and then he said, "how many drunken lazy Indians were there before European settlement"

We did our best to remove every quality that allowed First Nations to have pride in themselves and their culture. Now we are complaining that we were quite successful but don't like the results or the fact that a "quick fix' won't fix it.

The situation today is not a good one for many and the solution must be a joint solution.

That's all on this topic...

and by the way, I come from a long line and history of War Vets, with many family who paid the ultimate sacrifice. I also know a few First Nation war vets... If you do some research you can start to understand how we got we are today,..and possibly, by understanding, come up with realistic solutions.
  #246  
Old 07-01-2010, 10:40 AM
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  #247  
Old 07-01-2010, 12:24 PM
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Yah and your point is what ??? there were no white guys that died in these wars ??? just natives ???
Walleyes,

Your question was "do me a favour and tell me what they did the last 200 years then we have a conversation"

I just simply answered your question and done you a favour. If you would have asked about white guys I would have answered in regards to that. You didn't so I just answered your question as you requested.

You are welcome for the favour.

Thanks,
Rafter
  #248  
Old 07-01-2010, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Rafter View Post
Walleyes

Aboriginals fought in both World Wars and the Korean war so that all Canadians enjoy freedom.

Indians actually had to give up their status when they joined up.

Rafter
None of these wars threatened Canadian sovereignty. We were forced to go to WW1 and volunteered to go to WW2 to help the British. Korea also had nothing to do with Canadian freedom we went to help others out.

Also, Why should the Indians get special recognition for going to war? When the PM thanks the soldiers would that not include all soldiers whether they are Black, White or Brown?

The Indians gave up their status, eh? So does that mean they would just be recognized as your everyday Joe Canadian........Terrible eh..
  #249  
Old 07-01-2010, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by S.A.S View Post
None of these wars threatened Canadian sovereignty. We were forced to go to WW1 and volunteered to go to WW2 to help the British. Korea also had nothing to do with Canadian freedom we went to help others out.

Also, Why should the Indians get special recognition for going to war? When the PM thanks the soldiers would that not include all soldiers whether they are Black, White or Brown?

The Indians gave up their status, eh? So does that mean they would just be recognized as your everyday Joe Canadian........Terrible eh..
Dude that whole WW2 thing....... get over it.

Sure am glad your ideoligy lost.

Off to celebrate canada day and to enjoy the freedoms that members of our armed forces in the 3 above mentioned conflicts fought for on behalf of us in Canada and other nations who needed a hand when they were in a bad spot.
  #250  
Old 07-01-2010, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by S.A.S View Post
None of these wars threatened Canadian sovereignty. We were forced to go to WW1 and volunteered to go to WW2 to help the British. Korea also had nothing to do with Canadian freedom we went to help others out.

Also, Why should the Indians get special recognition for going to war? When the PM thanks the soldiers would that not include all soldiers whether they are Black, White or Brown?

The Indians gave up their status, eh? So does that mean they would just be recognized as your everyday Joe Canadian........Terrible eh..
Exactly !!!

How come my uncles have never received special notice for their contribution as Polish Canadians, they just took it for granted that when vets were honored they were part of it,, they didn't have to be singled out..
  #251  
Old 07-01-2010, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Walleyes View Post
Many white veterans were not recognised either. The issue lies more in where they returned to rather than who they were. Many natives returned to isolated communities out of touch and or reach of main stream society. As did many white soldier's the big difference is is that the communities recognised their soldiers on their own for many years it was the towns and the communities that held a high status of their veterans if the native communities failed to recognise their veterans well I guess that is an issue they should deal with how is that a government issue ??? Our communities made clubs and groups on their own ( Legion Halls ) what did the natives create for their veterans ?? How and why is it always up to someone else to help them. I come from a community with a very high native population and in the local Legion there were many metis veterans any of them that wanted to be part of it were,, those that chose to live out their lives in seclusion did so as did many white veterans and dealt with their issues on their own. Many, many a veteran in this country dealt with their demons not just the natives it just seems worse for the natives because once again its a crutch that they use to extort more attention. This poor poor us routine is getting old already.. When are these communities going to take responsibility for themselves and quit blaming everyone else...
Here are a few facts for your arguments.

-Native veterans couldn't form their own legions because of the Liquor prohibition of the Indian act, nor could they go to a legion and have a beer with their fellow veterans as it was illegal.

-Many veterans that returned had no choice but to return to their isolated communities as racism was still alive and well back then and many of them had a hard time finding jobs.

-1943, the government declared that, as British subjects, all able Indian men of military age could be called up for training and service in Canada or overseas yet they weren't even able to vote until after 1956.

-Department of Veterans Affairs, excluded Indian veterans and their families from many of the war and post-war programs that they offered. Indian veterans were considered to be wards of the government and therefore not the responsibility of Veterans Affairs.

- many of the Aboriginal veterans that had given up their Native status and the cultural and financial benefits that went along with it, didn't qualify for the many distinctions given to White veterans, such as education, pensions and affordable housing on their return home.

-After the Second World War, Canadian veterans were given financial help to buy houses and land and upgrade their education. According to a report prepared for a Métis veterans association, only eight per cent of Métis veterans reported receiving any benefits and fewer than one per cent received land under the Veterans Land Act.


-In 2002, status-Indian veterans were offered $20,000 each in compensation for benefits they were denied.


"The Métis veterans got left out," "There were two lines. In the Canadian line, they'd say, 'You're native -- go to the native line.


In the "native line" they were also rejected. "They'd say, 'You're not Indian.'


Quote:
Originally Posted by S.A.S View Post
The Indians gave up their status, eh? So does that mean they would just be recognized as your everyday Joe Canadian........Terrible eh..
Terrible eh? that they weren't recognized as the everyday Joe once they got home.

People should google many of this stuff, there is a ton of information out there. It might help with understanding a little about what the Natives had to go through before we start beaking off about equality.

Last edited by Sporty; 07-01-2010 at 02:24 PM.
  #252  
Old 07-01-2010, 02:45 PM
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See,, more and more of the poor, poor us attitude its just never going to end with these people.. All races of people have endured hardships throughout time every one of them..

Once again I a sorry I even got into this conversation.. Regardless of responses I am done with it..
  #253  
Old 07-01-2010, 03:44 PM
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Once again I a sorry I even got into this conversation.. Regardless of responses I am done with it..
Thank God.
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  #254  
Old 07-01-2010, 07:41 PM
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No have not heard that one.

Whats their names, where and when did this occur, how much did they get for the heads, who bought the heads, what is the F&W take on this???????????F&W must be aware of this as they would have to plug them

Please fill us all in.
F&W know about it, but word is that there is no wrongdoing as it was done under the IMHA. as far as i know the heads went to the us...i dont have names. the shooter is from medicine hat, the rams from the crowsnest area. selling price unconfirmed...just rumors so no point furthering that.

the fact he shot 4 is not a rumor. i saw 2 of them first hand and pictures of the others. the shooter is who told me the story. i wont name him publicly and draw more hate to an alrady touchy subject....although many on this forum know already.
  #255  
Old 07-01-2010, 07:50 PM
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F&W know about it, but word is that there is no wrongdoing as it was done under the IMHA. as far as i know the heads went to the us...i dont have names. the shooter is from medicine hat, the rams from the crowsnest area. selling price unconfirmed...just rumors so no point furthering that.

the fact he shot 4 is not a rumor. i saw 2 of them first hand and pictures of the others. the shooter is who told me the story. i wont name him publicly and draw more hate to an alrady touchy subject....although many on this forum know already.
Something doesn't sound right! F&W know about it but not illegal to sell body parts? I call "BS" on the whole story!!
  #256  
Old 07-01-2010, 07:54 PM
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Something doesn't sound right! F&W know about it but not illegal to sell body parts? I call "BS" on the whole story!!
they didnt seem too interested in laying charges when a 220 net whitetail was killed in the city a few years back either. they wont investigate a local rancher charging for access to hunt. what am i supposed to do? im just telling you what i know. if you want to talk to the fish cops, pm me and ill give you the details.
  #257  
Old 07-01-2010, 08:00 PM
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they didnt seem too interested in laying charges when a 220 net whitetail was killed in the city a few years back either. they wont investigate a local rancher charging for access to hunt. what am i supposed to do? im just telling you what i know. if you want to talk to the fish cops, pm me and ill give you the details.
Well its F&W job to be interested in it!! And probably if there was any truth or proof they would have been all over it!
  #258  
Old 07-01-2010, 08:03 PM
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Well its F&W job to be interested in it!! And probably if there was any truth or proof they would have been all over it!
like i said, if you want to try to tell them that go ahead. i keep getting the same story from them.
  #259  
Old 07-01-2010, 08:12 PM
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like i said, if you want to try to tell them that go ahead. i keep getting the same story from them.
Well don't you think that if "they" weren't interested in the story that it maybe because they thought it was "BS" too
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Old 07-01-2010, 08:20 PM
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exact words from F&W:

they were taken under the IMHA, there is nothing we can do.

the deer was taken with an arrow, the only charge we can issue would be discharging a bow within city limits.

we know they are charging hunters, but its pretty tough to prove.

so what would you do? maybe call someone higher in edmonton?....maybe make yourself a target for harassment from the fish cops? maybe shake your head in disbelief? i opted for number 3.




oh, i guess i forgot to add one of these

ill say it again...call med hat F&W and ask them yourself....i guarantee they will know the names of who im talking about without hesitation.
  #261  
Old 07-01-2010, 08:30 PM
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If it were true, they would'nt be able to hide behind the IMHA, treaty Natives are not allowed to sell body parts, why would Metis? "IT"S ILLEGAL" and if there was any evidence, truth or witnesses I'm sure something would have been done about it! Just another "BS" story to discredit Metis hunters. End of story!!
  #262  
Old 07-01-2010, 08:34 PM
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See,, more and more of the poor, poor us attitude its just never going to end with these people.. All races of people have endured hardships throughout time every one of them..

Once again I a sorry I even got into this conversation.. Regardless of responses I am done with it..
No woe is me about it. I know its hard to admit that there was an inequality for how Native veterans were treated compared to White veterans because it goes against the arguments of "everyone has endured hardships". Yes other races have had hardships and that is why many of them flock to Canada but it was Canada itself that caused the hardships for many Natives and I'm quite sure the White veterans were denied benefits when they came home after fighting for their country they wouldn't remain quiet about it either.

Quote:
Something doesn't sound right! F&W know about it but not illegal to sell body parts? I call "BS" on the whole story!!
I call BS as well because it is illegal for First Nations or Metis to sell game and or body parts and trophy hunting is not supported under the Metis harvesting. More fear mongering.....
  #263  
Old 07-01-2010, 08:59 PM
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i am in a work camp and the internet connection sucks so it took me a minute to get the info, but i have sent it to you in pm boss. if i could quote or provide a link to a conversation i would, but all i can do is provide you the contacts. you have the names and numbers of those who can clarify any questions for you. i hope you do and then you go ahead and say yup....bambi is telling the truth. when you do find that info however, please dont post the names involved. without a conviction, they are guilty of nothing and dont deserve a public flogging.

to be clear, i have no issue with natives, metis, whites or any other race as a whole....just those who abuse our resources. in the cases im referring to, two are white and one is metis......not that it makes a difference in the situation.
  #264  
Old 07-01-2010, 09:16 PM
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No woe is me about it. I know its hard to admit that there was an inequality for how Native veterans were treated compared to White veterans because it goes against the arguments of "everyone has endured hardships". Yes other races have had hardships and that is why many of them flock to Canada but it was Canada itself that caused the hardships for many Natives and I'm quite sure the White veterans were denied benefits when they came home after fighting for their country they wouldn't remain quiet about it either.


I call BS as well because it is illegal for First Nations or Metis to sell game and or body parts and trophy hunting is not supported under the Metis harvesting. More fear mongering.....
Many other races that flocked to Canada, came because their own country inflicted hardships, or worse an invading country did. The ones that were invaded I guarentee you weren't offered what Canada's natives got, or else they might have stayed put too!!!


Do they have to turn in their heads, or other body parts to F&W??? or is it their property after harvest??? and what is the definition of trophy, is it a buck, or are they only allowed to shoot does???
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  #265  
Old 07-01-2010, 09:23 PM
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Many other races that flocked to Canada, came because their own country inflicted hardships, or worse an invading country did. The ones that were invaded I guarentee you weren't offered what Canada's natives got, or else they might have stayed put too!!!


Do they have to turn in their heads, or other body parts to F&W??? or is it their property after harvest??? and what is the definition of trophy, is it a buck, or are they only allowed to shoot does???
the cases im referring to were under the IMHA. one of the guys in the court case and his kid took 2 400 ish bull elk at suffield within weeks of the initial announcement of the deal. the kid took a 180 mule buck just after christmas of the first year of the IMHA as well....among other antlered game. the other guy i mentioned killed 4 bighorn rams. i dont know what constitutes a trophy in anyone elses eyes...but 2 of them were awful small by nearly anyones standards....the other two were not full curls.
  #266  
Old 07-01-2010, 09:39 PM
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i am in a work camp and the internet connection sucks so it took me a minute to get the info, but i have sent it to you in pm boss. if i could quote or provide a link to a conversation i would, but all i can do is provide you the contacts. you have the names and numbers of those who can clarify any questions for you. i hope you do and then you go ahead and say yup....bambi is telling the truth. when you do find that info however, please dont post the names involved. without a conviction, they are guilty of nothing and dont deserve a public flogging.

to be clear, i have no issue with natives, metis, whites or any other race as a whole....just those who abuse our resources. in the cases im referring to, two are white and one is metis......not that it makes a difference in the situation.
well what's the issue...
  #267  
Old 07-01-2010, 09:43 PM
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SAS,
I think you hit the nail on the head!!

What is fundamentally wrong here is that there are a number of different ethnic groups all jockying for a piece of the hunting pie. Black, White, Red or Yellow, everyone is CANADIAN and should be treated as such.
Im not saying that people should give up their heritage, what I am saying is that there should be one law for all CANADIANS reguardless of who their ancestors were or what they did.
In the case of hunting in Alberta, all Alberta residents should be governed by one set of hunting regulations.

TK
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  #268  
Old 07-01-2010, 11:48 PM
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What they are fighting for is part of thier heritage!
  #269  
Old 07-02-2010, 12:50 AM
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What they are fighting for is part of thier heritage!
Killing trophy game outside of season? People need to advance with the times and not try and live in times prior to the White mans arrival.
  #270  
Old 07-02-2010, 02:17 AM
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What they are fighting for is part of thier heritage!
It's part of my heritage too!

Last i checked, hunting and fishing was all mankinds heritage! unless some can prove to me they had a Mcdonalds or Safeway in ancient Greece, Babalon or the caveman years.
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