Long range unethical?

[stvnbrg]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

Are you saying that our seasons aren't more restricted than they used to be, critters we used to get general tags for are now on draw and so on. If people can now bag game that was out of reach for most a few years ago their success rate goes up even further. With the amount of long range guns scopes and equipment being sold and seen out hunting it is becoming quite popular, in fact long range hunting and shooting has become a boom industry and one of the fastest growing sectors of the hunting industry. More tags are getting filled because of it. Our ability to hunt many animals gets more restricted every year and is inversely proportional to our success at harvesting these animals. Our success rate is increasing all the time from all sorts of advancements that make it easier to hunt them.

There is nothing wrong with long range shooting it's just another advancement in hunting technology which includes everything from climbing tree stands, animal calls, camoflauge, scents, decoys, rangefinders, etc, etc,. All these help make us more successful hunters and continually stacks the odds in the hunters favor. Will there come a time when we have to draw a line.?The technology is already out there for remote online hunting, you give them your visa and they set a gun up and you aim it through your computer, click your mouse and you shoot your animal. When this first came out the hunting community was pretty much outraged and poopooed this as extremely unethical. In twenty years will we have people saying there is nothing wrong with it, will we still call it hunting when we can lay on the couch at home, go to a website, shoot an animal by then have it delivered cut and wrapped, head ready to mount on the wall, will we still call it hunting?

What is the definition of hunting anyway? Obviously it means different things to different people.

Some of your ideas I agree with. But I will agree to disagree with long range shooting being the cause of reduced seasons. As a long bomber shooter, but not so much long hunter, I think IN MY OPINION that it's waayyyyy harder to have all the conditions be just so for a long shot on game then it is to simply get closer. This means roads, houses, fence lines, other hunters/safe direction. Not to mention terrain limitations as as soon as you drop prone everything disappears, wind and simply setup time! I find it far easier to just get closer! It's funny spending all the time and money on gear and prep and all my animals were well within 80 yards last year. Anyways, I have been following this thread since post 1 and swore I wouldn't get involved, so it's time for me to drop the Mic, throw up my hood and exit stage left.

[troutLakeJohnnie]

Please put me in the "Non-Lobbing" category. Ever hunt the Red Deer river valley?

Originally Posted by Tall Texan

Reading the threads on the rhino and lion shootings and this extreme range one have been very informative for me. I had no idea AB "hunters" felt the way they do. It's very unfortunate.

Enjoy yourselves lobbin em out there, I won't bother you further.

[Speckle55]

This may be it?

http://wn.com/long_range_hunting_110...ull_moose_kill

Originally Posted by last minute

where is the video !!!!!

David

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by Jordan Smith

LOL, I've done research and have seen no proof that the general hunting community disdains long-range hunting. So all that proves to me is that you're wrong.

Rather than conform to the average standard of ethics in our society (which is quickly becoming more and more liberal/removed from reality), I would prefer to be a leader in establishing what SHOULD be an acceptable standard of ethics, breaking the mold in the process.

I've done a bit of research myself and I found that the hunters I know generally admire long range shooters. Many including myself has tried a very few somewhat long range shots and decided they aren't for us.

I know at least one individual here that is capable of making long range shots.
Whether he would try to shoot an animal at 1,000 yards I do not know, but I have no doubt he wouldn't pull the trigger if he though he couldn't make the shot and if he were to pull the trigger my money would be on a solid hit.
I might add that he is well know here and well liked by many.

[Jordan Smith]

I think Cat is a good guy with a bunch of miles on his boots, too, but LR marksmanship is not a popularity contest. Most of the best shots I know are relatively unknown on this forum, although they are mostly members here. They are just mostly the quiet, capable types. The loud ones who are slinging mud are mostly guys with very little experience actually doing any LR shooting. As a well-known internet figure likes to say "spent primers are the supreme tutorial". Once you've spent enough primers, you will have gained the experience requisite to make an informed decision about whether LR hunting is something you are into, or not.

[grinr]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Anything over 250yds should be considered both long range and unethical to 95% of the people on this forum.

That is a fact.

Like!!^^
....didn't read the next 50 posts,doubt my opinion would change??

[Hydro1]

Originally Posted by grinr

Like!!^^
....didn't read the next 50 posts,doubt my opinion would change??

Not likely. I just keep checking in for the entertainment factor.

[last minute]

Originally Posted by Speckle55

This may be it?

http://wn.com/long_range_hunting_110...ull_moose_kill



David

Thanks i was thinking thats the one great shooting on the hunters part no bs in that video.

[catnthehat]

Long range shooting is not something you just do on the spur of the moment.
It takes money, and time, and lots of learning and trigger time , on top of all the other things one needs to learn about hunting in general .
On top of all that one needs a place yo practise and there are not s lot of this'd around compared to rifle ranges with 100 or 200 yard butts.

I've shot full bore competitively and I've hunted and killed animals at distances some would want me hung for .

I Can't afford it any more and don't have the same amount if time to access my personal range like I used to , otherwise I likely would still be practising for a long range kill.

That being said I am positive there are bettering range shooters and hunters here as well as elsewhere that I gave met, and done this know.
It's a tremendous thing to do if one has the above combination , it 's pure luck and irresponsible to attempt if one doesn't .
Cat

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by Jordan Smith

I think Cat is a good guy with a bunch of miles on his boots, too, but LR marksmanship is not a popularity contest. Most of the best shots I know are relatively unknown on this forum, although they are mostly members here. They are just mostly the quiet, capable types. The loud ones who are slinging mud are mostly guys with very little experience actually doing any LR shooting. As a well-known internet figure likes to say "spent primers are the supreme tutorial". Once you've spent enough primers, you will have gained the experience requisite to make an informed decision about whether LR hunting is something you are into, or not.

That goes both ways, lots of guys with jugs full of spent primers who are current long range competitive shooters that won't shoot animals at extended distances as they are well aware of what can go wrong.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

That goes both ways, lots of guys with jugs full of spent primers who are current long range competitive shooters that won't shoot animals at extended distances as they are well aware of what can go wrong.

That is an irrefutable comment, for sure!
The two biggest mentors in my shooting life never did and never had any intention of trying it on big game .
One however was an avid long range 'chuck hunter and both were Members of World Championship teams during their respective professional careers .
Cat

[bobtodrick]

Originally Posted by troutLakeJohnnie

Actually, you are very wrong. I started the thread asking for information. I was slagged on YouTube regarding my questioning the ethics and veracity of the shooter. I received many nasty remarks but not a single logical explanation as to how to judge wind, barometric pressure, crosswinds form all around the compass between shooter and target. I did not receive any hint from all the crap they dumped as to how the bullet manufacturers have done the science and research to layout ballistic charts with a plethora of weights, BC, velocities and calibers yet they mean nothing!

No...I wanted to learn and discuss.

Buy a copy of this. It will answer all your questions.
http://www.amazon.ca/Magpul-Art-Prec...recision+rifle

[Jordan Smith]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

That goes both ways, lots of guys with jugs full of spent primers who are current long range competitive shooters that won't shoot animals at extended distances as they are well aware of what can go wrong.

Absolutely. But at least they are making an informed decision, not just spouting off about what can't or shouldn't be done with zero experience to back them up, like so many other guys...

[michaelmicallef]

I've spent a lot of time and cash just to be comfortable to get out to 600 yrds. To date my longs shot has been out to 525yrds. (Almost no wind).That was on a mule deer and that's with I don't even know how much time practicing and load developement. I can't see myself going much more than that ever because to do it effectively would require more skill than I have time to acquire. But I do shoot gongs out to 1100 yrds and I happy with that. Im sure It can be done but not for me. But when you hunt with a group of guys that fink 300 yrds is a long shot, I'm considered a sniper.

[gtr]

Originally Posted by Jordan Smith

Absolutely. But at least they are making an informed decision, not just spouting off about what can't or shouldn't be done with zero experience to back them up, like so many other guys...

Your being coarse

with the experts on here ,you know, the ones that have done it all, seen it all ,googled it all...

[recce43]

I do a lot of long range shooting . and just shooting period . its called practice and lots of it . I am confident enough to shoot out to 1000 yards . do I do that hunting nope longest shot I have taken big game at is 300 yards . would I take a shot out to 1000y It would depend on the conditions

[bobtodrick]

Originally Posted by recce43

I do a lot of long range shooting . and just shooting period . its called practice and lots of it . I am confident enough to shoot out to 1000 yards . do I do that hunting nope longest shot I have taken big game at is 300 yards . would I take a shot out to 1000y It would depend on the conditions

I think that's the crux of the matter.
Is it possible to make a 1000yd shot with a relatively certain chance of success. Yes.
Is it something I'd recommend. Probably not...you'll likely always get the chance to get a closer shot at an animal.
But the people who say it's impossible...you don't know what you're talking about.
And to the people who say it's easy and no problem...are probably going strictly by what they've read.

[elkhunter11]

One thing that hasn't been mentioned, is that different people have different criteria, when deciding when to attempt a shot, and when to pass. I have to feel that the probability of a clean one shot kill is almost certain, in the 90% + range. Some people will take a shot if they feel that they have better than even odds of a clean one shot kill. And then there are people that are thinking, about how they can brag if they make the low percentage shot. I have actually heard the " if you put lead in the air, you always have a chance" nonsense a few times from different people. And that doesn't just apply to long range shooting, it applies to shooting at running animals, or shooting at game animals whose vitals are obscured by cover, or when shooting at an animal that is mixed in with a herd. Some people feel that they owe the game that they hunt a quick clean kill, while other people spout things such as " so what if I only wound the animal, it's only an animal, and the coyotes have to eat too,"

[.257Weatherby]

Originally Posted by MattSako

You need a good caliber with enough energy to drop a moose that far..

Is a .50 BMG heavy enough.
There is an anti GB Hunt video floating around FB btw what is face book ??
Claims to be 1/4 mile away and the Boar took 3 shots and a fourth after the GB ran another 100yrds and eventually tumbled down a mountain for another 500 yrds...
Why do we beat ourselves over this shyte?
Rob

[Jordan Smith]

Originally Posted by michaelmicallef

I've spent a lot of time and cash just to be comfortable to get out to 600 yrds. To date my longs shot has been out to 525yrds. (Almost no wind).That was on a mule deer and that's with I don't even know how much time practicing and load developement. I can't see myself going much more than that ever because to do it effectively would require more skill than I have time to acquire. But I do shoot gongs out to 1100 yrds and I happy with that. Im sure It can be done but not for me. But when you hunt with a group of guys that fink 300 yrds is a long shot, I'm considered a sniper.

Good stuff. That's how it's done. Develop your skills and work your way out as you get comfortable shooting further and further with higher and higher success rates. It's not a race to see who can shoot the farthest, it's just important that each guy recognize where he is at, what he can successfully pull off, and not worry about comparing himself to guys that have shot more, practiced more, spent more, and can shoot a bit farther with success. The thing that bugs me the most, is when guys think and talk like "if I can't do it, then it can't and shouldn't be done by anybody".

Shooting is a lot like basketball. If I can make a lay-up 95% of the time, and a free throw 85% of the time, but my 3-pointers have a dismal 20% success rate, does that mean I should start proclaiming to the world that 3-point shots are unethical because it's too difficult to judge the shot angle with consistency and you're wasting your team's shot opportunity? Should I make a blanket statement that 3-point shots should not be attempted, and it is unethical to do so, even though there are guys out there who have practiced and spent a lot more time and money than me to become proficient at making 3-pointers, and can do so on a consistent basis?

If, through personal experience and spent primers, you know you can make a shot, whether with a rifle or a basketball, 95% of the time, then I say go for it! There is nothing ethically wrong with that.

[Jordan Smith]

Originally Posted by recce43

I do a lot of long range shooting . and just shooting period . its called practice and lots of it . I am confident enough to shoot out to 1000 yards . do I do that hunting nope longest shot I have taken big game at is 300 yards . would I take a shot out to 1000y It would depend on the conditions

Yessir. There are conditions where I won't shoot past 200 yards, and others where I will shoot many multiples farther than that.

[Jordan Smith]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

One thing that hasn't been mentioned, is that different people have different criteria, when deciding when to attempt a shot, and when to pass. I have to feel that the probability of a clean one shot kill is almost certain, in the 90% + range. Some people will take a shot if they feel that they have better than even odds of a clean one shot kill. And then there are people that are thinking, about how they can brag if they make the low percentage shot. I have actually heard the " if you put lead in the air, you always have a chance" nonsense a few times from different people. And that doesn't just apply to long range shooting, it applies to shooting at running animals, or shooting at game animals whose vitals are obscured by cover, or when shooting at an animal that is mixed in with a herd. Some people feel that they owe the game that they hunt a quick clean kill, while other people spout things such as " so what if I only wound the animal, it's only an animal, and the coyotes have to eat too,"

Yep, it irritates me when I hear "there are lots of deer, I'll just shoot another one", after a guy hits a deer and looks for it for 20 minutes...

[Smokinyotes]

Contrary to what a lot of guys think, a 1000 yard shot is not that difficult with the right equipment and conditions. Add in gusting swirling wind in a few different directions at 4-12mph and it becomes an entirely different game. I know with my heavy barreled 6.5-284 and no wind, I dial 23 MOA and a 1000 yards gets boring pretty quick, adding in the wind is when it gets interesting.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

The two biggest mentors in my shooting life never did and never had any intention of trying it on big game .
One however was an avid long range 'chuck hunter

So he thought it was ethical to take long range shots at one species of animal but not another? Or am I missing something here?

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

So he thought it was ethical to take long range shots at one species of animal but not another? Or am I missing something here?

I Didn't say he thought it was ethical for one and not the other . I just said he had no intention of taking long range shots at big game - for one , because the cartridges ,rifles and sights he used for big game were not adequate for big game at longer ranges his favourite rifle was either an Enfield on 303 with a 2x scope of an '06 with a four power .
His 'chuck guns had fixed 15x scopes in lighter cartridges as well .
The other simply quit hunting when he became a TKM
Cat

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

I Didn't say he thought it was ethical for one and not the other . I just said he had no intention of taking long range shots at big game - for one , because the cartridges ,rifles and sights he used for big game were not adequate for big game at longer ranges his favourite rifle was either an Enfield on 303 with a 2x scope of an '06 with a four power .
His 'chuck guns had fixed 15x scopes in lighter cartridges as well .
The other simply quit hunting when he became a TKM
Cat

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh Makes sense. Thanks.

[gitrdun]

Wow. 175 posts towards such a divisive topic. The antis are the least of our concerns based on everything being said here.

[hardy]

Originally Posted by troutLakeJohnnie

I have a sister near Saint Grigor, near Humboldt. I would love to see you do your stuff. Again though, I would like to read how you judge a moose is at exactly 1100 yards, not 1125 or 1070 because that would mean a clean miss, over or under. Laser rangefinders have a .05% error IF you can get a clean and proper reflextion. This does not deal with crosswinds which are rarely 90 degrees on. The variances are huge.

Anyway, would love to meet you and become enlightened!

Regards,
TLJ

dude? Not sure where your getting this 5% error from? My Swarovski is plus or minus one yard at any range it can read.

Heres how a guy can range a moose and take the shot.

Step1:take high quality range finder(Swarovski,Leica,zeiss..etc) range target.

Step:2 Step two only applies to "you trout lake", take 1100 yard reading on animal ,yes non reflective but still ranged by high quality finder in step 1. Take 1100 and add 1 yard=1101. Now take 1100 and subtract 1yard=1099.

Step3: Check ballistics program or app or whatever you have for data. Now see what the impact change will be.

Step 4: You take note that depending on the trajectory of you round you now might be only off target by 1or2 inches (again this could be more or less depending on a lot of things)

Step 5: Make adjustments for shot if desired and shoot moose.

Step 6: Learn from reading Steps 1-6.If the rangefinders were as bad as your touting then no one would be making any long range shots. Plus no one would need to freak out because if you were that far out on your shot there would be no wounded animals! Now go watch hundreds of long range huntings vids and prove that it can't be done because range finders are not accurate.

[stvnbrg]

Originally Posted by hardy

dude? Not sure where your getting this 5% error from? My Swarovski is plus or minus one yard at any range it can read.

Heres how a guy can range a moose and take the shot.

Step1:take high quality range finder(Swarovski,Leica,zeiss..etc) range target.

Step:2 Step two only applies to "you trout lake", take 1100 yard reading on animal ,yes non reflective but still ranged by high quality finder in step 1. Take 1100 and add 1 yard=1101. Now take 1100 and subtract 1yard=1099.

Step3: Check ballistics program or app or whatever you have for data. Now see what the impact change will be.

Step 4: You take note that depending on the trajectory of you round you now might be only off target by 1or2 inches (again this could be more or less depending on a lot of things)

Step 5: Make adjustments for shot if desired and shoot moose.

Step 6: Learn from reading Steps 1-6.If the rangefinders were as bad as your touting then no one would be making any long range shots. Plus no one would need to freak out because if you were that far out on your shot there would be no wounded animals! Now go watch hundreds of long range huntings vids and prove that it can't be done because range finders are not accurate.

nailed it

[elkhunter11]

Step 6: Learn from reading Steps 1-6.If the rangefinders were as bad as your touting then no one would be making any long range shots. Plus no one would need to freak out because if you were that far out on your shot there would be no wounded animals! Now go watch hundreds of long range huntings vids and prove that it can't be done because range finders are not accurate.

His math is so bad, that he couldn't calculate the bullet drop if he was provided with all of the required data.