The OP wanted some stories and input regarding the 270 Winchester and the 7mm-08 Remington. Of course he got the usual, deer gun, ladies gun, 270, 7mm-08, only magnum crap along with some good advice. I have killed over 45 moose and at least 8 elk, and seen many more fall to the 270 and 7mm-08 over that last 50 years. a few have been at over 600 yards with both cartridges and both have been up to the task. I usually don't pay much attention to what gun writers have to say because much of the crap is initiated by them. However Layne Simpsons article "In Praise of the 257 Weatherby" prompted me to do a comparison between that great "Magnum" cartridge and the two cartridges in question. I have posted a portion of that article and believe that some of those who take the time to read it will learn something.
WHY WE CHOSE A 7mm08 REM OVER A 257 WEATHERBY
By Laverne Lundgard
Layne Simpson did a great job on his article, “In Praise of the .257 Weatherby Magnum”, in the April 2006 issue of Shooting Times. It is undoubtedly a very flat shooting cartridge that is capable of taking moose out to 600 yards with a well placed shot. I consider 1100 to 1200 ft. lbs. to be ample energy to kill a moose as this is more than a 30-30 Winchester at 150 yards. Tell a Northern Alberta pioneer that he can’t kill a moose at 150 yards, with a 30-30, and you’ll be laughed out of the country.
I have hunted the northern Alberta, Peace River Valley, its tributaries and surrounding boreal forest for nearly fifty years. I have marked 43 personal moose kills on Google Earth and seen many more fall, to rifles that I have set up, at all ranges up to700 yards.
The vast majority of these animals were taken with my BSA Custom Deluxe in .270 Winchester loaded with 130 grain Winchester Power Points. The ballistic charts show a velocity of 3060 ft./sec. at the muzzle and 1046 ft. lbs. energy at 500 yards with this bullet. Many factory loads and good hand loads will generate over 1000 ft. lbs at 600 yards, putting the .270 Winchester right in there with the venerable .257 Weatherby.
A Hunter’s Dream
My backyard with 100 yard target bottom center, the Montagnuse River Valley where it meets the Peace River, and the Clear Hills in the distance.
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Clem’s Request
Last fall Clem Jordan asked me to set up his .257 Weatherby Mark V with some handloads so he could use it on his annual moose hunt and to kill a few gophers around his farm at Leduc, Alberta. Imagine my surprise when he pulled out a mint Mark V made by JP Sauer and Sohn in the early 60’s. It had a beautiful walnut stock with contrasting fore tip, putting me in mind of my old BSA Custom Deluxe, topped with a 4 power Redfield Scope secured by deluxe rings to match. Clem told me that a wealthy gentleman had originally purchased it to take on a sheep hunt but that it had been stolen before he could use it. It was later found and returned to him, but not before he had replaced it. Clem got a bargain, on a virtually unused rifle, but could not find any bullets that would group satisfactorily in it.
Alas the slow twist in the barrel would not stabilize the 120 grain bullets that he needed for moose. His dream of a dual purpose rifle was dashed and he was reluctant to pay over $60.00 for a box of, Roy Weatherby’s, factory fodder to shoot gophers. Furthermore the 4 power scope was inadequate for him to duplicate the 300 plus yard shots we were doing, on gophers, with my .223 Remington LVSF and 20 power scope.
My advice to Clem:
I advised him to let me sell the rifle and replace it with a 7mm08 Remington. A few days later it was sold and a Remington 700 Special Purpose Synthetic (SPS) was on order. Clem wanted the same scope as I had on the .223 which was a Hawke Pro Stalk 50, 5-20X50mm, with a mil dot reticle. I got him a 4-14X50 as the smaller power was more suited to the dual purpose role that he envisioned. These scopes are great as they really suck up the light and are priced at just over $250.00.
Recommending this combination was easy as I had replaced my old .270 BSA with a Remington 700V in 7mm08 and had over twenty years of experience under my belt. This rifle had started out as a 22-250 Remington, been lost in the Peace River valley, and found by one of my hunting partners. When he was killed by a Grizzly his roommate gave me this rusty rifle that had taken three years of WD-40 just to get the bolt open. I cleaned it up but the chamber was pitted so badly that I could not eject a spent cartridge as the brass expanded into the pits and the extractor would let go as the case was essentially stuck. Fate intervened and I found a barrel that had only fired a few rounds and the owner agreed to sell it to me for $100.00. At the time I was at Dawson Gunworks in Dawson Creek, British Columbia. The gunsmith removed the old barrel, screwed on the new tube, checked the headspace and relieved me of $25.00.
That was the beginning of my love affair with Remington’s 7mm08 in their factory production rifles. I free floated the barrel, tuned the trigger, mounted a Redfield 4-12x40 scope and bought a couple of boxes of Remington Factory 120 grain HP for this rejuvenated 700V. This was the early 1980’s so brass could not be found and I was fortunate to find the 120 grain factory loads which were to be used to obtain brass. Imagine the excitement when my first 100 yard group measured 0.21 inches fired from an Outers Varminter Gun Rest on the tailgate of my truck.
First target shot with Remington 700V
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Rem 700V – Best Group 0.190”
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Rem 700V Hunting load with Speer 145 SpitzBTSP & H 4350 Extreme
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Handloading the 7mm08 Remington:
Armed with some brass and a Speer number 11 Reloading manual I began to work up my first load. Fortunately Speer used a Remington Model 700V, in their load development, which made my job easy. The only problem was that they didn’t have a load for the 150 grain Nosler Solid Base bullets that I had been using in my 7mm Remington Magnum. I noted that Norma MRP at 52 grains developed 2901 feet/second with their 145 grain bullets and 51 grains developed 2799 feet/second with their 160 grain missiles.
This was the same powder that I had been using in the 7mm Rem Mag. I worked up to 51 grains with the Nosler 150 SB backed by Federal 215 primers and Cartridge OAL of 2.82” which just squeezed into the magazine. The result was a load that flew over my Pact chronograph at 2817 feet/second and punched a neat 0.31” group on the 100 yard target (See first target shot with this rifle). This load worked perfectly on three Montana antelope that fall, two for me and one for a partner. He didn’t feel confident at 300 plus yards with his 30-06 in a 10 mph crosswind. Unfortunately MRP became as scarce as hen’s teeth and I had to abandon this load. Two new powders that may work in place of MRP are H4831SC and Vihtavuori N560.
Speer also showed a load of 51 grains MRP with their 175 grain bullets developing 2799 ft/sec. I thought that it might be a misprint as it was the same as their 160 grain load and the same charge that I used with the 150 grain Nosler SB. I had very little MRP left so I substituted the slightly slower Reloader 22 and found that a very compacted 52.5 grain load drove a 175 grain bullet to 2815 ft/second with no apparent pressure problems. This was within 50 ft/second of the fastest load achieved using this powder in a 26” barrel 7mm Rem Mag. Too bad that it was so compacted as to run the risk of splitting the case when seating the bullet. This bullet is great even at 2500 to 2650 ft/sec which is easily achievable with a number of listed loads.
The Nosler Ballistic Tip (Red Tip 120) and AccuBond (White Tip 140) and their newly re-introduced forerunners, the Solid Base bullets are extremely accurate. Their high Ballistic Coefficient allows for flat trajectory and great terminal energy in weights suited for all game from Varmints to Moose. Varget works great for all bullet weights from 120 to 160 grain.
Energy, Recoil, Efficiency, Accuracy:
Through the years I developed and tested many loads for various rifles chambered in 7mm08 with barrels ranging from 18 ½ to 24”. The accompanying table shows that the common denominator is uncanny accuracy and enough terminal energy to kill moose at ranges from 400 to 600 yards depending on load selection. In fact all loads except the HP loads and the Nosler 120 grain load, designed for varmints and targets, exceed the 1000 ft- lbs at 600 yards that Layne Simpson alluded to in his article on the .257 Weatherby.
All of this is accomplished with recoil energy 25 to 35 percent less than the loads developing similar 600 yard terminal energy in the .270 Win and the .257 Wby. Add Remington’s R3 recoil pad, which gives about a 30 percent decrease in felt recoil, and your shoulder is caressed with about the same energy as 243 Win pushing a 100 grain projectile at 3000 ft/sec in a rifle of the same weight.
The superior efficiency of the 7mm08 is manifest by the fact that it develops this terminal energy using 25 to 35 percent less powder than the .257. This results in less muzzle blast, less heat, less throat erosion and lower cost ammunition. Combine all this with a shorter action and a shorter, lighter barrel and you find yourself doing a lot more shooting, The sum of all of these advantages might explain the approximate 65 percent increase in accuracy that I experienced over those experienced by Layne in the .257 Weatherby. Another possible factor is that three 7mm08 Weatherby Weathergard’s, using the same loads as the Remingtons, shot similar groups to the Weatherby’s that Layne used.
Trajectory:
While I concede to the fact that the .257 Wby. shoots much flatter than the 7mm08 Rem I find that this is not really much of an advantage to an experienced hunter if he uses the scopes, reticles and range finders available today. The following chart illustrates how I set up for gophers with my Rem 700V. A maximum ordinance of 2.87” allows you to shoot point blank on a 5 ¾” target which gets a standing gopher. In this example the 7mm08 shoots point blank to about 305 yards which is only about 40 yards less than the .257 . Aiming at the head will get a gopher to 350 yards with either caliber. The US army mil dot reticle gives you 3.6 MOA at 100 yards so moving up one dot puts you 1.55” high at 400 yards with the Speer 110 TNT. The second dot will do a number on a gopher at 550 yards and the bullet is accurate enough to place groups just over an inch, at that range, if conditions are right and I am having a good day. The 87 grain factory load in the .257 Weatherby rifles that Layne used would be hard pressed to do 6” groups, at 550 yards, on the best of days. While quite adequate for deer or moose I think that you will find groups like that quite disappointing if you want to have a dual purpose rifle like Clem Jordan envisioned.
Bullet Velocity Max Ordinance 100yd 200yd 300yd 340 yd 350yd
Speer 110 TNT 3300ft/sec 2.87” +2.35” +2.33” -2.38” -3.31” -4.25”
Wby 87 Factory 3825ft/sec 2.87” +2.10” +2.73 -0.10” -2.43” -3.12”
The accompanying chart shows a number of loads for the 7mm08 that shoot almost the same trajectory at the Speer 145 Spitz BT that I chose for my Remington SPS. I topped this rifle with a Burris Euro Diamond 3x12x50, Ballistic Plex reticle. Sighted 3” high at 100 yards allows me to shoot point blank to 303 yards, on a 7” target, which is perfect for deer or moose. The first hatch puts me +1.5” @ 300 yd, the second +2.43” @ 400 yd, the third +2.17” @ 500 yd and the post is +2.18” @ 600 yd. I can consistently shoot groups less than 4” into the bear silhouettes at 500 meters but have to compensate 9.5”. Groups at 400 meters can be held to less than 3” and strike 4” low. I have not had a chance to try this rig in the field but with Harris bipod attached it weighs about 9 pounds and will punch a bullet through the lungs and probably out the other side of a moose. “No other rifle in any caliber will kill the moose any deader”.
The followingchart also shows a comparison to the 270 Win and .257 Weatherby. I have killed moose at 600 yards with the Win 270 PP and as you can see the 7mm-08 is up to the job as well. Layne Simpson claims that the 120 Nosler partition is good for "caribou, elk and moose at all ranges" and that hunters have taken Cape Buffalo, brow bear and polar bear with the .257 Wby so the 7mm-08 should be good to go.: [IMG]
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Bullet Selection and Penetration:
I have used Speer SpitzBT , Nosler SB and Nosler BT bullets for many years. I prefer the Speer 145 & 160 Spitz BT as they fit best in the magazine. I used to use the Nosler 140 & 150 SB until they were discontinued. I have recovered very few of these bullets as they have gone clean through moose at ranges from 100 to nearly 600 yards.
One of my hunting partners decided to sell his new Browning A bolt, in 7mm Remington Magnum, and buy a 7mm08 Weatherby Weatherguard from me . He got the opportunity for a quartering on shot, at over 100 yards, and placed a Speer 145 SpitzBT between the neck and shoulder of a huge moose. We found an exit hole at the back of the ribs on the off side and hung 875 pounds of meat in the freezer.
On another occasion I found a medium sized bull standing in a ridge in the Peace River valley. He was about 400 feet above me and the range finder on my Redfield 4x12x40 showed about 550 yards. I used the BDC to adjust the sight, set up on the bipod and placed a bullet just below centre of the rib cage. The moose walked about 12 steps, grunted, dropped and rolled down the ridge. I found that the 140 grain Nosler SB had taken out both lungs and exited after passing through the shoulder blade.
While on an antelope hunt my son placed the crosshairs about 2 feet above the shoulder of a nice buck. The 120 grain Nosler BT exited the 20” barrel of my Remingtion Model 7 SS at over 3100ft/sec, flew about 500 yards and struck dead centre on the buck’s rib cage. We found him with a hole through both lungs and the hide on the other side. The advent of Hodgdon’s Varget powder has made this possible and allowed for the use of Nosler’s longer 140 BT and AccuBond bullets.
More Examples of Great Groups with Remington 7mm08:
Remington 700V – 120 HP Remington Factory Ammunition
- 3 shot group from Varmint Rest – 0.21”
- 5shot off hand group @ 100 yds. – 5.5”
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Rem 700 Mountain Rifle including cold bore shot.
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Setting up Clem’s New Remington SPS Stainless
I decided that Nosler’s new 140 AccuBond would be used for big game as it’s white tip would distinguish it from their red tipped 120 BT that would be used for gophers. I had developed a load with Nosler 140 BT using neck sized Remington brass, Federal 210 primers, 44.5 grains of Varget and COL 2.8”. This load shot extremely accurately in my tight chambered 700V and clocked 2950 & 3033 ft/sec at 0o and 20 o Celsius respectively. I had clocked two rounds through the 20” tube on my Model 7SS at 2900 ft/sec, probably on the same day, and the calipers measured 0.409” for an amazing 0.125” group. My brother’s Weatherby Weatherguard pushes this load at 2900 ft/sec on a cool day but only manages 1.28 groups despite having a Timney trigger.
I punched a Nosler 140 AccuBond in place of the 140 BT, sighted it at 3”, chronographed 2900 ft/sec, noted 10o Celsius and a same hole group. I then tried my standard load with Nosler’s 120 BT, neck sized Remington brass, Federal 210 primers, 47.3 grains of Varget and COL 2.8”. It clocked 3200 ft/sec and shot a good group but too high and too fast to have a compatible trajectory with the 140 AccuBond. I used my RCBS Load program to determine that I had to develop a l20 Nosler BT load that would travel 3100 ft/sec and shoot 2.5” high in order to accomplish that. I used new Remington brass, reduced the charge to 46.3 grains of Varget and fired a same hole group. Amazingly this first attempt resulted in the desired velocity and elevation but ¼’ to the right. I adjusted the scope 1 click to the left, printed off a trajectory graph, computed the zero for each of the mill dots and sent the gun off to Clem as he was ready to leave on his annual moose hunt. I didn’t get a chance to have the trigger adjusted.
Clem’s Comments:
Clem told me that his hunting partners were not satisfied that he had not tried this new rife before leaving on the hunt. To satisfy them he set up a target at about 100 yards and shot one of the 140 grain AccuBond’s to find it cut a hole 3” high slightly off center. Satisfied, he passed the gun to one partner who fired a bullet that cut his bullet hole. Thinking that this must be a fluke they insisted that Clem fire another shot. The result was a group that they could cover with a dime. Another partner then fired two bullets and punched them virtually into same hole, three inches high dead centre on the target. He didn’t get a shot at a moose but a nice buck presented himself at about 350 yards so Clem leaned on a tree and dropped the buck, dead in his tracks.
One of Clem’s hunting partners complained that his rifle wouldn’t group under 3” and that he had paid $2400.00 for gun and scope. They could scarcely believe that Clem had paid only $1028.67 for this amazing unit, 65 rounds of ammo and two ammo boxes. The other partner asked that Clem order “one of them Hawke scopes” for him. I think that his next request will be for a new Remington, in the much under rated 7mm08 REM, to place under it.
270 vs 7mm-08
Hybrid Mode
