Elk Bullets

[leo]

My Son and I have shot a few Elk. One of the reasons I stick with a Nosler Partition or Barnes TSX or TTSX is my preference to anchor that critter by taking out 1 shoulder if possible. I’ve never lost an elk that was hit there with one of those projectiles, but I’ve seen a couple lost that could be contributed to explosive performance of a lesser constructed bullet. A bullet that shrapnels is going to kill that critter, but it can still go a 1/2 mile before it lays down to die in thick timber. Each to their own, but this is my experience after hunting elk for over 40 years. I prefer to keep the tracking to a minimum.

[Outcast]

Originally Posted by Rio56

the smaller cal's and bullet weights are never gonna replace the same performance in a faster larger cal. it's impossible ... a 300wsm can shoot a TTSX too
Recoil is diff , but nowadays there's options to change that
The race to the bottom is a fad

dream all u want

Trying to piece together your post but if I understanding it correctly you are saying that a small cartridge like a 6.5 Creedmoor for example will never meet or exceed the performance of a 300WSM with a ttsx?
Whats your definition of performance in this case? Just numbers like kinetic energy? Whats the measure of performance you talk of?
Why put a muzzle brake on if you don’t need to? Much more enjoyable without.

[catnthehat]

Even the Great Townsend Whelan is known to comment that a 177 grain bullet out of a 257 Roberts case was a good elk cartridge.
As far as brakes go, I won't own a rifle with one, either for the range or hunting. We have choices and no brakes is mine.
Cat

[Pathfinder76]

270 Winchester, 130gr TSX, 560 yards. He stumbled five feet and fell on his face.

[Outcast]

270 is close to my heart. My first rifle was chambered in it and I have taken a lot of game with that cartridge. Also the largest cartridge I currently own.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Even the Great Townsend Whelan is known to comment that a 177 grain bullet out of a 257 Roberts case was a good elk cartridge.
As far as brakes go, I won't own a rifle with one, either for the range or hunting. We have choices and no brakes is mine.
Cat

The wrong bullet was stated, it should read 117 NOT 177!
Cat

[hansol]

I'm not sure if I'm understanding correctly.

Animals succumb when their brain ceases to function, a result of either a direct hit to the central nervous system or significant blood loss.

A bullet that fragments upon impact maximizes internal damage rather than exiting intact. This fragmentation causes extensive tissue damage.

If a bullet exits, it suggests that not all of its potential for causing internal damage was utilized.

The fragmentation of a bullet, particularly in vital areas like the lungs, can incapacitate an animal quickly by disrupting its blood circulation, eliminating the need for tracking. The optimal outcome is achieved by causing the maximum possible trauma, with bullets designed to exit being less effective in this regard.

The effectiveness of copper bullets, or other types, in causing lethal outcomes isn't in question; rather, their mechanisms of interaction with soft tissue differ. Opting for such ammunition, whether for personal preferences or compliance with regulations like lead-free mandates, is entirely respectable and beyond critique.

For what it's worth, I used to run Partitions and Accubonds. Once I learned about the science of wounds and trauma, it became tough to not question what I "learned" before. This was a good read https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6208714/ And there's lots more sources about temporary and permanent wound cavities etc.

As the saying goes "Run what you brung." But lots has changed in the hunting world in the last 6 years too.

Originally Posted by leo

My Son and I have shot a few Elk. One of the reasons I stick with a Nosler Partition or Barnes TSX or TTSX is my preference to anchor that critter by taking out 1 shoulder if possible. I’ve never lost an elk that was hit there with one of those projectiles, but I’ve seen a couple lost that could be contributed to explosive performance of a lesser constructed bullet. A bullet that shrapnels is going to kill that critter, but it can still go a 1/2 mile before it lays down to die in thick timber. Each to their own, but this is my experience after hunting elk for over 40 years. I prefer to keep the tracking to a minimum.

[leo]

There’s no doubt fragmentation of a bullet will kill. However my point is an elk with 1 lung can go a long ways before expiring. Dead is dead, but dead with no tracking and easier recovery is one of my goals.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by leo

There’s no doubt fragmentation of a bullet will kill. However my point is an elk with 1 lung can go a long ways before expiring. Dead is dead, but dead with no tracking and easier recovery is one of my goals.

One thing I have learned over the years is that an animal- any animal, can go an awful long way on one lung!
Cat

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by hansol

I'm not sure if I'm understanding correctly.

Animals succumb when their brain ceases to function, a result of either a direct hit to the central nervous system or significant blood loss.

A bullet that fragments upon impact maximizes internal damage rather than exiting intact. This fragmentation causes extensive tissue damage.

If a bullet exits, it suggests that not all of its potential for causing internal damage was utilized.

The fragmentation of a bullet, particularly in vital areas like the lungs, can incapacitate an animal quickly by disrupting its blood circulation, eliminating the need for tracking. The optimal outcome is achieved by causing the maximum possible trauma, with bullets designed to exit being less effective in this regard.

The effectiveness of copper bullets, or other types, in causing lethal outcomes isn't in question; rather, their mechanisms of interaction with soft tissue differ. Opting for such ammunition, whether for personal preferences or compliance with regulations like lead-free mandates, is entirely respectable and beyond critique.

For what it's worth, I used to run Partitions and Accubonds. Once I learned about the science of wounds and trauma, it became tough to not question what I "learned" before. This was a good read https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6208714/ And there's lots more sources about temporary and permanent wound cavities etc.

As the saying goes "Run what you brung." But lots has changed in the hunting world in the last 6 years too.

A bullet the exits got to the other side by going through things on the inside.

[Dick284]

This much I know is Pathfinder76 has killed a pile of elk, I’ll take his advice over just about anyone else’s on what a good elk bullet is.

The other thing I know is, match/target bullets dressed up as an adequate big game bullet is not a recipe for success. If you wanna prescribe to the grenade in the innards camp, you’re gonna be left with a lost critter or a lousy recovery on your hands, it’s just a matter of time.

I want the bullet that does the job when things aren’t perfect, instead of a bullet only that gets the job done when things are perfect.
I’m talking about angled presentations, and the opps, I pulled into the shoulder kind of aren’t perfects……..

[Outcast]

Originally Posted by Dick284

This much I know is Pathfinder76 has killed a pile of elk, I’ll take his advice over just about anyone else’s on what a good elk bullet is.

The other thing I know is, match/target bullets dressed up as an adequate big game bullet is not a recipe for success. If you wanna prescribe to the grenade in the innards camp, you’re gonna be left with a lost critter or a lousy recovery on your hands, it’s just a matter of time.

I want the bullet that does the job when things aren’t perfect, instead of a bullet only that gets the job done when things are perfect.
I’m talking about angled presentations, and the opps, I pulled into the shoulder kind of aren’t perfects……..

When you say “I know” does that mean you have personally shot animals, not one but many, with ELDM, TMK, ELDX and have seen failure to get sufficient penetration to the offside when shot in the front half?

I have no doubt that Pathfinder76 has shot many elk. There’s others here that have shot a few as well. Mythical creatures they are not though.

I used magnums and Barnes, partitions and accubonds for years. I subscribed to all the same teachings and spoke about how it was required for elk because they were so tough. Frankly I don’t care what anyone uses but I find it funny how hard it is for people to think outside the box even though there is more than enough compelling info available that is opposite from the magnumitus premium bullet gospel from the past.

The one thing I will agree with is Barnes cause less meat damage than the Match bullets.

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by Outcast

When you say “I know” does that mean you have personally shot animals, not one but many, with ELDM, TMK, ELDX and have seen failure to get sufficient penetration to the offside when shot in the front half?

I have no doubt that Pathfinder76 has shot many elk. There’s others here that have shot a few as well. Mythical creatures they are not though.

I used magnums and Barnes, partitions and accubonds for years. I subscribed to all the same teachings and spoke about how it was required for elk because they were so tough. Frankly I don’t care what anyone uses but I find it funny how hard it is for people to think outside the box even though there is more than enough compelling info available that is opposite from the magnumitus premium bullet gospel from the past.

The one thing I will agree with is Barnes cause less meat damage than the Match bullets.

I know, because I’ve personally witnessed, helped recover, and have done post mortem’s on critters which provided all sorts fun and games as a result of use of such bullets.

Crap happens and always will, and because of that, I’m convinced penetration and weight retention with moderate or larger bullet expansion, rules the day.

[Outcast]

So you personally haven’t done this but you have witnessed, meaning you were right there spotting for someone while they were taking the shot, or you came to the animal after it was down and listened to the story of how it happened? Just trying to understand what personally witnessed means in that context? Also wondering what bullet and the scenario. I don’t understand speaking in absolutes with no data explained on each scenario.

I have personally driven 147 ELDM through an elk breaking his offside shoulder and exiting at 80 yards. I have personally seen the same bullet on a quartering to shot break the onside shoulder, destroy the lungs and exit. Both did not go far.

Deer are no issue. Never have seen one “fail” to penetrate sufficiently on anything.

That load out of a Creedmoor also carries sufficient velocity to expand out to 900 yards. I’m not saying I do that although I practice. Hit rates with a light recoiling rifle out past 400 is also increased dramatically. Especially with wind.

It’s just an easy platform for anyone to shoot. The 6mm’s are even nicer.

[DirtShooter]

https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/...130488/page-31

Thousands of posts outlining multiple hunter's success on nearly every big gam animal in NA with .22cal bullets of various makes sierra, hornady etc and surprise most are match bullets. There's a nice elk shoulder photo where you can see the silhouette of a knife behind it in the sun. I know the ol boys club on here likes to prop each other up but lots of good reading in the link above.

[Outcast]

Originally Posted by DirtShooter

https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/...130488/page-31

Thousands of posts outlining multiple hunter's success on nearly every big gam animal in NA with .22cal bullets of various makes sierra, hornady etc and surprise most are match bullets. There's a nice elk shoulder photo where you can see the silhouette of a knife behind it in the sun. I know the ol boys club on here likes to prop each other up but lots of good reading in the link above.

It’s a great read especially if you’re open to it.

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by Outcast

So you personally haven’t done this but you have witnessed, meaning you were right there spotting for someone while they were taking the shot, or you came to the animal after it was down and listened to the story of how it happened? Just trying to understand what personally witnessed means in that context? Also wondering what bullet and the scenario. I don’t understand speaking in absolutes with no data explained on each scenario.

I have personally driven 147 ELDM through an elk breaking his offside shoulder and exiting at 80 yards. I have personally seen the same bullet on a quartering to shot break the onside shoulder, destroy the lungs and exit. Both did not go far.

Deer are no issue. Never have seen one “fail” to penetrate sufficiently on anything.

That load out of a Creedmoor also carries sufficient velocity to expand out to 900 yards. I’m not saying I do that although I practice. Hit rates with a light recoiling rifle out past 400 is also increased dramatically. Especially with wind.

It’s just an easy platform for anyone to shoot. The 6mm’s are even nicer.

First hand at the shooters side three times, helped drag and or skin over a half dozen critters after all the fun and games.

I don’t use and won’t use target/match bullets on game, and well let’s just say the over 150 or so big game critters I’ve harvested only a couple involved fun and games and those were attributed to me and not the bullet.

I don’t know why the violent push back, are you a share holder in a certain bullet company or something?

I’m just saying I’ve witnessed or been part of enough head scratchers and flat out holy craps with match/target bullets to come to the opinion that they aren’t a big game bullet.

[Outcast]

Your definition of violent is maybe a bit off. Being questioned and having to explain yourself is not a bad thing. I’m asking questions so that I understand. Saying “I know” is very vague yet it is absolute. I am trying to understand the potential situation. Most if not all rodeos are caused by a bad shot, using the bullet outside its performance window. or something in the way of the animal that the bullet strikes before it hits the animal that then get attributed to bullet failure.

I have zero shares with any bullet manufacturer out there. It’s just another side although far outside of what we have read and learned for the last let’s say 50 or more years of hunting.

[DirtShooter]

Violent words...





Look how thin that elk scapula is.

[DirtShooter]

Originally Posted by Outcast

It’s a great read especially if you’re open to it.

I read it over the course of a couple weeks while at work, seeing that we can't use .22cal in AB for big game I still kept reading and the amount of kills guys have with their .223rem and 22creedmoors is pretty wild. the 77gr TMK does a lot of damage.

[Outcast]

If you haven’t gotten enough out of that thread there is a 6mm and a 6.5 thread as well. Good info.

[catnthehat]

All this postulating on elk bullets is interesting, from the small .22 caliber stuff to the really big stuff and everything in between.
I do know that for every pro argument there is a conflicting rebuttal from the other side .
I also know that nothing is a given, no matter what we are shooting .
I have been around hunting all my life and my father started out doing cartridge investigations as part of
His job with C.I.L , so I have had lots of reading and research ( besides hunting magazines) at my fingertips growing up.
In all my years of hunting I have only seen two personal experiences where the bullet did not perform as expected. One was a a 150 grain 30/30 that got stopped by the skull of a beaver at about 20 yards, I was amazed at that.
The other was a slight off angle frontal shot on a white tail a few years back with a trusted bullet of 7mm and 145 grains at 135 yards.
The bullet broke up, part of it travelling the length of the animal just inside the hide, exiting amd breaking the right rear hock. The insuing hunt was interesting to say the least.
We could not belive that
A: the bullet broke up like that and
B: the broken piece traveled that far and still broke the hock of the animal.

Just goes to prove that anything can and may happen when a bullet is fired and hits an animal because there is no perfect bullet!
Cat

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by DirtShooter

Violent words...





Look how thin that elk scapula is.

My hunting partner pulled someone else’s cup and core bullet off of an elk scapula of an elk he killed. A public land honest to goodness 370” bull. Sucks to be that guy.

[Pathfinder76]

Barnes bullets make big holes in big hearts just fine. :-)

[hansol]

I wondered when this beauty was going to make an appearance. Nicely done.

Originally Posted by DirtShooter

https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/...130488/page-31



Thousands of posts outlining multiple hunter's success on nearly every big gam animal in NA with .22cal bullets of various makes sierra, hornady etc and surprise most are match bullets. There's a nice elk shoulder photo where you can see the silhouette of a knife behind it in the sun. I know the ol boys club on here likes to prop each other up but lots of good reading in the link above.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by hansol

I wondered when this beauty was going to make an appearance. Nicely done.

breaking a scapula does not automatically mean an animal is going down.
Rockslide is not the only forum with examples other than the norm for big game cartridge kills.
The 24 hour campfire also has a pile of examples and threads on kills with smallbore center fires and also match bullets.
Cat

[Ken3134]

Originally Posted by Rio56

Yes, new bullets have hit the market
What's your go-to elk bullet !! let's say out to 350 yards
Dosen't matter bonded , mono's or cor-lokt or ?
New Terminal ascent and the fusion tipped are interesting .
What have you had good success with and maybe the one that made you change
Pics and stories are good

Growing up in Saskatchewan, my dad and I shot moose and elk with Winchester soft points and Remington Corloks. For many years now, I guess since I began reloading I starting using Nosler partitions, as well as Accubonds. I have a bit of a stock pile of these in 7mm and .30 cal and I guess it’s just piece of mind that they are better, and they certainly work.

I just got myself a new to me Tikka 7mm-08 and bought a box of 140 gr TTSX that I will develop a load with for it. As much as I do like the Nosler bullets, they are hard to find and stupid expensive when you do.

I don’t foresee myself going back from the premium bullets.

[Wildcat93]

I use Nosler Accubond 165 gr for my 06 and 180 gr for my 300 WM and so far no complaints. 3 elks and 1 moose dropped on the spot while 2 elks manage to run 10-15 yards before going down. Shots were between 180 to 340 yards.

[Twisted Canuck]

Originally Posted by Wildcat93

I use Nosler Accubond 165 gr for my 06 and 180 gr for my 300 WM and so far no complaints. 3 elks and 1 moose dropped on the spot while 2 elks manage to run 10-15 yards before going down. Shots were between 180 to 340 yards.

Makes me wonder about 180 gr Accubonds with the .338 Federal. Getting 2775 fps with those, tons of energy. Not sure if that's preferable to the 200 gr Trophy Bonded Tip at 2620 fps?

[Wildcat93]

Originally Posted by Twisted Canuck

Makes me wonder about 180 gr Accubonds with the .338 Federal. Getting 2775 fps with those, tons of energy. Not sure if that's preferable to the 200 gr Trophy Bonded Tip at 2620 fps?

Not sure with the .338 but my 300 WM is getting 3013 fps with 180 gr bullets, .012 off the lands and 78.5 gr of H1000. 2969 fps with 78 gr. I never tried 200 gr yet.