crossbow season?

[DJS]

Originally Posted by Scar270

Any of the bow hunting I do, would be nearly impossible with a crossbow, I can't imagine trying to sneak through bush with one of the ungainly things.

If people want to use a crossbow in archery season, I say we should let them. Why do people think the success rate would suddenly jump so considerably.

Even as a recurve hunter I can only think of twice when a compound may have given me a shot opportunity that I didn't have anyway, and I can't think of any that a crossbow would have given me over a compound.

The success rate or percentage of animals shot per hunter might not increase but with the huge number of added hunters to the archery season it only means a higher number of animals will be killed. Thus leading in a year or two to the government having no chioce but to incorporate more draws.

[razorray]

It is legal to use them during bow season in Ontario

[Matt L.]

Some people refuse to learn I guess.

I'd like to know what the exact proof of these huge hunter # increases is. What is the basis for it?

Originally Posted by DJS

The success rate or percentage of animals shot per hunter might not increase but with the huge number of added hunters to the archery season it only means a higher number of animals will be killed. Thus leading in a year or two to the government having no chioce but to incorporate more draws.

You are right...there's no doubt that the harvest during archery season would rise and SRD has already said in their brief that draws for mule deer and moose would likely be the result. I suspect some of the elk zones would too.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by DJS

The success rate or percentage of animals shot per hunter might not increase but with the huge number of added hunters to the archery season it only means a higher number of animals will be killed. Thus leading in a year or two to the government having no chioce but to incorporate more draws.

I thought we wanted more hunters.....

[DJS]

We do want more hunters, but putting out more draws would decrease the number of hunters in given areas due to the decrease in tags available.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by DJS

We do want more hunters, but putting out more draws would decrease the number of hunters in given areas due to the decrease in tags available.

And that's the conundrum, isn't it? More hunters means we would have a stronger voice politically and better protect our rights... but the upshot is that it would actually result in less opportunities for us individually.... unless those greater numbers resulted in more focus on protecting/expanding habitat, good game management, etc etc. I wouldn't bet on that one. It's a tough question.

I want more hunters in the field... just not the field I'm in.

I can't see crossbow inclusion in archery season increasing overall hunter numbers significantly. I suspect and it seems the stats bear this out, that most crossbow hunters would come from the ranks of current hunters.

[LongDraw]

Originally Posted by sheephunter

I can't see crossbow inclusion in archery season increasing overall hunter numbers significantly. I suspect and it seems the stats bear this out, that most crossbow hunters would come from the ranks of current hunters.

Exactly.

[russ]

Originally Posted by Matt L.

I'd like to know what the exact proof of these huge hunter # increases is. What is the basis for it?

Well no one knows exactly what the number of crossbow hunters are, they just know that there is an increase in archery tags. A few states definitely experienced an increase in archery numbers, in one case an increase from around 80-85,000 to 120,000.

Hopefully, if SRD goes ahead with this a separate permit will be required so that they have a far better idea of the participation in the designated season. I'd go so far as to say that this is only fair, after all bowhunters have been paying extra to hunt for years. For that reason I think that Bows, Crossbows & Muzzle Loader's should all have separate stamps to track usage.

[209x50]

With their plans to streamline the draws you think they are going to make more work with separate stamps? I kinda doubt it.

Originally Posted by 209x50

With their plans to streamline the draws you think they are going to make more work with separate stamps? I kinda doubt it.

I think the other thing that bears looking at is how they intend to potentially include crossbows. The simplest would be to change the definition of what constitutes a bow in Alberta and then crossbow users would be required to buy an archery licence just like those using compounds, recurves and longbows as it would be just another bow. The other is to included crossbows as a seperate weapon. Considering SRD typically takes the path of least resistance, I suspect they'd choose the former if they choose to proceed.

It's my understanding that it was the archers that supported the additional licence required to bow hunt so they had a means of acurrately tracking numbers. I agree that the same could be useful for muzzleloaders.

[ganderblaster]

Originally Posted by razorray

It is legal to use them during bow season in Ontario

Exactly.And when was the last time you heard of a 170" deer coming from that province?

[Duk Dog]

Originally Posted by ganderblaster

Exactly.And when was the last time you heard of a 170" deer coming from that province?

Yep, ban cross bows and Ontario will be crawling with 170" deer.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by ganderblaster

Exactly.And when was the last time you heard of a 170" deer coming from that province?

um....EVERY year. they certainly dont produce the numbers that we enjoy out west, but i reckon that has more to do with genetics than crossbows. the top end bucks are pretty incredible though. anyone remember the 190 plus that was a victim of a poaching incident near dryden?

A friend of mine killed this one last year in southern Ontario...

[beancounter]

I cant speak for everyone but I think it is a pretty simple solution. Leave the bow zones alone for now for the bowhunters and accoss the rest of the province open the bow season for crossbows as well. I know that it would be a good boost in sales for the archery shops and small hunting shops too.

[Huntwriter]

Statistics from U.S. states that included the crossbow into the regular bowhunting season show very clearly that numbers have not dramatically increased. What it has done however, is to give the large number of aging bowhunters (baby boomers) that would have to give up bowhunting due to weakness, pain and other factors associated with age a chance to continue bowhunting. That is a good thing.

As a bowhunter I fail to realize why so many other bowhunters are against crossbows. Some people just don't like change. Incidentally, I am old enough to remember the same hoopla when the first compound bows came out. The traditional hunters where all up in arms about it and Pope & Young quickly let everybody know that compound bow trophies would not be entered in their book. Eventually they got used to changing times too.

[209x50]

Originally Posted by Huntwriter

Statistics from U.S. states that included the crossbow into the regular bowhunting season show very clearly that numbers have not dramatically increased. What it has done however, is to give the large number of aging bowhunters (baby boomers) that would have to give up bowhunting due to weakness, pain and other factors associated with age a chance to continue bowhunting. That is a good thing.

As a bowhunter I fail to realize why so many other bowhunters are against crossbows. Some people just don't like change. Incidentally, I am old enough to remember the same hoopla when the first compound bows came out. The traditional hunters where all up in arms about it and Pope & Young quickly let everybody know that compound bow trophies would not be entered in their book. Eventually they got used to changing times too.

Plain and simple the ABA believes that when crossbows are allowed moose and mule deer tags will go on draw. And they will, which to me is about time.

[whitetail Junkie]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Plain and simple the ABA believes that when crossbows are allowed moose and mule deer tags will go on draw. And they will, which to me is about time.

x2,I said along time ago on here that Mule deer should be on draw for archery aswell!!! Bow hunters Laughed at me.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by 209x50

Plain and simple the ABA believes that when crossbows are allowed moose and mule deer tags will go on draw. And they will, which to me is about time.

And when they do go on draw, Everyones waiting period for their draws will lengthen ,even for rifle hunters too! I guess 6 year waits for muleys and 10-12 for moose in some area's.........That should put more people in the field.

[ishootbambi]

Originally Posted by pottymouth

And when they do go on draw, Everyones waiting period for their draws will lengthen ,even for rifle hunters too! I guess 6 year waits for muleys and 10-12 for moose in some area's.........That should put more people in the field.

now how will that work? most archery guys already apply in draws for better areas and bowhunt where they can without a draw. that wouldnt change anything....except that bowhunters may not be able to hunt those species every year. there are no details yet, but one idea tossed around is a weapon specific draw. if that happens, archery guys will get their percentage of tags and the hardcore guys willing to bowhunt only may draw way more often than rifle guys. you say you refuse to hunt with a rifle with the other hillbillies, so if that scenario happens, you wont hardly be affected at all. even if it becomes all weapons and seasons draws province wide, you still would have the same number of guys applying. im not gettting your way of thinking here potty?

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

now how will that work? most archery guys already apply in draws for better areas and bowhunt where they can without a draw. that wouldnt change anything....except that bowhunters may not be able to hunt those species every year. there are no details yet, but one idea tossed around is a weapon specific draw. if that happens, archery guys will get their percentage of tags and the hardcore guys willing to bowhunt only may draw way more often than rifle guys. you say you refuse to hunt with a rifle with the other hillbillies, so if that scenario happens, you wont hardly be affected at all. even if it becomes all weapons and seasons draws province wide, you still would have the same number of guys applying. im not gettting your way of thinking here potty?

Ya, considering about 95% of Alberta's bow hunters also hunt with a rifle, I'd tend to agree with you bambi.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

now how will that work? most archery guys already apply in draws for better areas and bowhunt where they can without a draw. that wouldnt change anything....except that bowhunters may not be able to hunt those species every yearthere are no details yet, but one idea tossed around is a weapon specific draw. if that happens, archery guys will get their percentage of tags and the hardcore guys willing to bowhunt only may draw way more often than rifle guys. you say you refuse to hunt with a rifle with the other hillbillies, so if that scenario happens, you wont hardly be affected at all. even if it becomes all weapons and seasons draws province wide, you still would have the same number of guys applying. im not gettting your way of thinking here potty?

By increasing the archery people, by even a moderate number of 10% from rifle hunters transfering over, that would be enough to put a draw on those animals.

Now archers who never applied in a ceratin zone before, would have to just because perhaps, there permissions are there, or there families ranch is in there, it would definatley add to the congestion of applicats, reducing the draw times.

The idea of weapon specific draws was only tossed around A.O as far as I know, as an Idea, not sure if SRD is playing with that too. But even if that was the case, I believe that each zone is alloted an X amount of draws, spread out over 2 seasons, with approximatlely Y number of new archers now drawing, the increase in draw times would still increase for everyone regardless of, weapon.

In the end, crossbow might give some people more oppoturnity, but that oppoturnity will only be taken away by the draws incorparated, and every group will lose something in the end.

Originally Posted by sheephunter

Ya, considering about 95% of Alberta's bow hunters also hunt with a rifle, I'd tend to agree with you bambi.

And if that number is accurate, and weapon specific draw are incorparated,that potentially spells the doom for bowhunting in Alberta. I'm guessing the majority would stick to "other" because of the higher % of harvest rate.The 5% would stay true, and the intrest level in bowhunting would slowley fade.I'm guessing most of that 95% number only started to bowhunt to increase there time in the field anyway. Just using that number!

[ishootbambi]

potty, you are contradicting yourself, and throwing numbers around that just dont add up. you start out saying if rifle hunters cross over even 10% it could mean a draw....then go on to say that archery hunters would drop? huh?!?! so which one you wanna go with? archers gonna rise or fall? lets go with rise. now numbers we know are that 95% of bowhunters also rifle hunt and therefore are applying for draws anyway.so you say

Now archers who never applied in a ceratin zone before, would have to just because perhaps, there permissions are there, or there families ranch is in there, it would definatley add to the congestion of applicats, reducing the draw times.

so if they didnt apply for that zone before....then where did they apply? 95%percent of them are already applying somewhere, and maybe they would make a change in preferred wmu, but for those that move anywhere, they are freeing up a spot where they were. each hunter gets 1 application, so really, how does it change anything? further, if thats where their permissions are or the family ranch, then they are already applying there. the point you are trying to make just doesnt add up.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

potty, you are contradicting yourself, and throwing numbers around that just dont add up. you start out saying if rifle hunters cross over even 10% it could mean a draw....then go on to say that archery hunters would drop? huh?!?! so which one you wanna go with? archers gonna rise or fall? lets go with rise. now numbers we know are that 95% of bowhunters also rifle hunt and therefore are applying for draws anyway.so you say

No I'm not at all actually. Here , listen up. Adding crossbows will increase draw waits. Using the 95% (using that number)number and weapon assigned draws, more people would stick to rifle cause of the higher kill %, instead of Bow,because they would want to insure they didn't waste a long draw wait. The end result will be, in 10-15 years down the road, less bowhunting paticipation.Is that more clear?

Now archers who never applied in a ceratin zone before, would have to just because perhaps, there permissions are there, or there families ranch is in there, it would definatley add to the congestion of applicats, reducing the draw times.

so if they didnt apply for that zone before....then where did they apply? 95%percent of them are already applying somewhere, and maybe they would make a change in preferred wmu, but for those that move anywhere, they are freeing up a spot where they were. each hunter gets 1 application, so really, how does it change anything? further, if thats where their permissions are or the family ranch, then they are already applying there. the point you are trying to make just doesnt add up.

For instance, someone who bowhunts in 214 for muley, has 2 months of hunting, applying for the same zone in nov, is pointless, especially with the huge amount of Rifle hunters that move in. Most guys I know either 999, or don't apply at all, we have the bowzone......but not for long.

The 95% number is not a factual number either, there is no actual data on that, but anyway.

Now if I'm understanding you correctly, Crossbows go into the archery season, nothing changes, everything is great???

[ishootbambi]

go back and read your post. you said

By increasing the archery people, by even a moderate number of 10% from rifle hunters transfering over, that would be enough to put a draw on those animals.

and at the end said

The 5% would stay true, and the intrest level in bowhunting would slowley fade.

and yes that is contradicting yourself. thats what a contradiction is...to say one thing (in this case that bowhunters will increase) followed by saying the opposite thing (that bowhunters would fade away)

as for your numbers and wmu...lets look closer and see if we can simplify this. if a guy hunts 214 for mulies now and can hunt it for 2 months of archery because as you say thats where his permission is or where the family farm is....where is he applying for a draw? for the many it is 214, but more may be apllying elsewhere for whatever reason....better trophy quality elsewhere, 214 is where he lives so its easy to go out after work or whatever. either way, he is applying somwhere for a rifle draw because as you pointed out, rifle success is higher. so take away his option of bowhunting every year and make him apply for a draw, he still only gets 1 application. so for the guy applying in 214 already there is zero change. for someone applying elsewhere for reasons already stated, again nothing changes. if someone were to change the preferred wmu for their draw, then that opens a spot where they were. that would be balanced out by guys who applied in 214 changing to whatever they change to. the simple fact is that the vast majority of bowhunters are also rifle hunters and are already applying for draws. the only way the number of hunters applying for draws goes up is if there is an increase in overall hunters. wherever crossbows have been legalized, that has not been the case. the vast majority of new crossbow hunters are already hunting with other weapons.

as for this

Now if I'm understanding you correctly, Crossbows go into the archery season, nothing changes, everything is great???

i have said many times that yes bowhunter numbers will increase and yes that will mean some areas will go to a draw. yes the guys who are used to hunting every year for some things will give up some of their time to new bowhunters. and YES thats why the ABA and the guys whining so loudly on this forum about these changes are being frowned upon so harshly for their selfishness. you have made it clear that you dont want to share your own little season with new bowhunters. you can try all you want to villify crossbows, but the truth is you dont want to share what you perceive as YOUR archery season.

[pottymouth]

Originally Posted by ishootbambi

go back and read your post. you said

By increasing the archery people, by even a moderate number of 10% from rifle hunters transfering over, that would be enough to put a draw on those animals.

and at the end said

The 5% would stay true, and the intrest level in bowhunting would slowley fade.

and yes that is contradicting yourself. thats what a contradiction is...to say one thing (in this case that bowhunters will increase) followed by saying the opposite thing (that bowhunters would fade away)

Archers ( archery liecenses) will increase!!
Vertical Bowhunter will decrease in the long run.....read it again.

as for your numbers and wmu...lets look closer and see if we can simplify this. if a guy hunts 214 for mulies now and can hunt it for 2 months of archery because as you say thats where his permission is or where the family farm is....where is he applying for a draw? for the many it is 214, but more may be apllying elsewhere for whatever reason....better trophy quality elsewhere, 214 is where he lives so its easy to go out after work or whatever. either way, he is applying somwhere for a rifle draw because as you pointed out, rifle success is higher. so take away his option of bowhunting every year and make him apply for a draw, he still only gets 1 application. so for the guy applying in 214 already there is zero change. for someone applying elsewhere for reasons already stated, again nothing changes. if someone were to change the preferred wmu for their draw, then that opens a spot where they were. that would be balanced out by guys who applied in 214 changing to whatever they change to. the simple fact is that the vast majority of bowhunters are also rifle hunters and are already applying for draws. the only way the number of hunters applying for draws goes up is if there is an increase in overall hunters. wherever crossbows have been legalized, that has not been the case. the vast majority of new crossbow hunters are already hunting with other weapons.

Maybe where you hunt, I'm talking where I hunt, with the people I know.......we have no reasons to choose draws, it's either 999 or no draw....cause we have a bow only zone that we move to in Nov.

If you hunt mule deer with a bow in a zone, and don't put draws in or always 999, just incase of a rainy day, you will now have to put in for a place to hunt. So 7 guys in my group that have a priority of 5 or better start pulling our tags in your zone, two a year.....we haven't moved from any zone to balance it , we just added to your zone...make sense. Add our father or brothers that dont bow hunt and don't shoot muleys. But because we are potentially gonna pick up a rifle to share hunting to mule deer hunt, they start putting in draws...etc...this is my groups senerio!

The va
as for this

Now if I'm understanding you correctly, Crossbows go into the archery season, nothing changes, everything is great???

i have said many times that yes bowhunter numbers will increase and yes that will mean some areas will go to a draw. yes the guys who are used to hunting every year for some things will give up some of their time to new bowhunters. and YES thats why the ABA and the guys whining so loudly on this forum about these changes are being frowned upon so harshly for their selfishness. you have made it clear that you dont want to share your own little season with new bowhunters. you can try all you want to villify crossbows, but the truth is you dont want to share what you perceive as YOUR archery season.

I take more new bowhunters out yearly, than most people do in a life time. Especially young, or first time hunters.....so it isn't about sharing,or being gready and not knowing me and spouting comments like that make you look bad, just like saying I have only hunted for 2 years....don't assume ..ask next time.

[ishootbambi]

your numbers still arent makin sense potty. the vast majority of bowhunters now are rifle hunters too. once again you are having trouble seeing outside your own backyard. you say you and your pals dont apply for rifle tags. i doubt it, but ok...maybe you all do. its irrelevant. if what you are saying is true your group is not representative of what goes on in the majority of this province. thats kinda why you have been having such a hard time understanding what everyone else is saying. you live in a bow only zone. where i live for example, guys here can get a mule buck draw every year in some zones, and every other year in the others. i personally know more than 40 bowhunters, but i dont know a single person who hunts only with archery. obviously what happens in my backyard is not exactly what happens provincewide either. sheephunter posted 95% as the number of archers who also rifle hunt but did not provide a link to proof. i suspect if one were to find the proof that number is very close.

i asked a legit question to explain your arithmetic potty, but you have not provided an explanation that works. if you can show how this will ruin hunting for everyone id like to hear it. all you have been able to show so far is that you will be negatively affected.

[ganderblaster]

It has been mentioned many times on this forum by those favouring a crossbow season that crossbows are allowed in the states for archery season.I just did a little google search and guess what? Many states have a complete ban on crossbows. The 4 states(Wisconsin Iowa Kansas Minnesota) that would be closest to Alberta as far as producing trophy deer only allow hunters with disabilities to use crossbows during archery season.Furthermore the impact of crossbows in pay for hunting access jurisdictions would be limited as hunters are distributed differently then in Alberta.