Now I get to pay CPP2 and people are scared of an APP

[Dylan15]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

They sure did, I am fairly certain I did not gloss over this fact.

I see you are in support of the APP. I hope we can agree on the world is transitioning from fossil fuels to more renewable resources. It is not "if" we transition, it is "when"...

With-out debating the timeline, I hope we can agree that our province will loose the advantage we have had since the inception of CPP in 65.

When we loose the economic advantage, and if we have an APP, what then ?

In your previous comment you directly alluded that Daniel Smith greased palms of her pals to get the report done in short order. I refuted that, you setup strawman and pivoted. Thanks for the contribution to the topic at hand.

By the way, Oil and Gas is about 20% of our GDP in Alberta. We are still doing better than most other provinces if that disappeared over night. Remember when the government sent out alerts we didn't have enough power a month back? I do. The windmills didn't spin, and the solar panels didn't produce. You know what would have? Coal. We have limited hydro in AB, and government keeps forcing farmers to accept their green energy projects, essentially limiting land use in certain areas.

If anything, the government and world tripping over themselves to find out how little lithium exists in the world makes our resource sector worth more long term. It is staying in the ground, safe, while the world goes mad. Or would you prefer to be a slave to China, who holds half of the worlds lithium reserves, just to support our governments policies to limit wealth creation? CPP invests in oil and gas. If we were given our due from this fund (Estimated minimum 22-25% from some economists), we wouldn't have to depend on oil and gas anymore in our investment fund anyways.

[Sledhead71]

Originally Posted by I’d rather be outdoors

No takers eh? Pity that, the lieberals could use all the help they can get. I mean, your number is right there right? Why don’t they just say, yeah, we’re good with Steelhead71’s number, take that Alberta! Better yet, why don’t they get that pamphlet stealer Chahal to hand deliver the news to our Premier Daniel Smith.

I’m already having a way better day than you my friend :-)

We have about a tenth of the population of Canada, we contribute approximately 16.5% of the CPP fund. Some figures say only 15%, but using the 16.5 is more accurate considering our wage structure ( my opinion only ). So obviously Alberta does contribute more to this fund with less people.

What's your number ? Right, you supplied the Lifeworks report stating 53% right ? Do you honestly believe a tenth of the people in Canada contribute over half of this pension fund ? Honest question...

By the way, what the heck is a Lieberal ? And Danielle Smith is our Premier.

[I’d rather be outdoors]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

What the heck is a Lieberal?

A lot of people will be asking the very same question after the next election.

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

And Danielle Smith is our Premier.

She sure is, and will be for a very very long time :-)

[Sledhead71]

Originally Posted by Dylan15

In your previous comment you directly alluded that Daniel Smith greased palms of her pals to get the report done in short order. I refuted that, you setup strawman and pivoted. Thanks for the contribution to the topic at hand.

By the way, Oil and Gas is about 20% of our GDP in Alberta. We are still doing better than most other provinces if that disappeared over night. Remember when the government sent out alerts we didn't have enough power a month back? I do. The windmills didn't spin, and the solar panels didn't produce. You know what would have? Coal. We have limited hydro in AB, and government keeps forcing farmers to accept their green energy projects, essentially limiting land use in certain areas.

If anything, the government and world tripping over themselves to find out how little lithium exists in the world makes our resource sector worth more long term. It is staying in the ground, safe, while the world goes mad. Or would you prefer to be a slave to China, who holds half of the worlds lithium reserves, just to support our governments policies to limit wealth creation? CPP invests in oil and gas. If we were given our due from this fund (Estimated minimum 22-25% from some economists), we wouldn't have to depend on oil and gas anymore in our investment fund anyways.

I alluded too the fact the the APP was not a platform that she ran on, the Kenney government was the inception of the Fair deal panel. To think these politicians don't line the pockets of their friends and business acquaintances is foolish.

20% of GDP is huge, other industries that piggy back off the oil and gas energy in Alberta is significant as well. Most likely a third of our prosperity is linked to energy here.

We all have our opinions.

[HyperMOA]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

We have about a tenth of the population of Canada, we contribute approximately 16.5% of the CPP fund. Some figures say only 15%, but using the 16.5 is more accurate considering our wage structure ( my opinion only ). So obviously Alberta does contribute more to this fund with less people.

What's your number ? Right, you supplied the Lifeworks report stating 53% right ? Do you honestly believe a tenth of the people in Canada contribute over half of this pension fund ? Honest question...

By the way, what the heck is a Lieberal ? And Danielle Smith is our Premier.

This has been answered. How many times I can’t say. The sheer lack of comprehension of people astounds me.

OK lets say the CPP is worth 100 billion for craps and chuckles. Mainly because I want to use an easy number. Now lets say Alberta and our 16.5% contributions and 10% payments equals out to 2.65 billion dollar surplus each and every year. See we had a net over contribution. Many other provinces broke even, some are at a net loss, some made modest contributions too. Now over 40 years lets say 20 of those years we didn’t over contribute our 2.65; maybe even less but lets say 20 year we broke even and 20 years we over contributed 2.65 billion. Now 20x2.65 billion is 53 billion. Which is 53% of the 100 billion dollar fund. That isn’t calculating interest.

That is a true number. Its not made up by Lifewroks or Danielle. It is the REALITY. The problem with 53% is we can’t tell what liabilities we would owe. As some of you mentioned the newfies would be eligible for an APP benefit and anyone else who worked here. So the APP would send money to anyone who worked here at 53%. If the government wants to work those numbers out they need to present the liabilities Alberta would have to accept to receive the full 53% we are owed. Alberta can’t get the record of liabilities from CPP. The federal government has to. I wonder why they aren’t sharing? Showing the country how right Danielle is would be the scandal that loses Trudeau every Atlantic riding when they find out their CPP contributions will triple.

I have said this 8 times myself along with others.

[Sledhead71]

Originally Posted by HyperMOA

This has been answered. How many times I can’t say. The sheer lack of comprehension of people astounds me.

OK lets say the CPP is worth 100 billion for craps and chuckles. Mainly because I want to use an easy number. Now lets say Alberta and our 16.5% contributions and 10% payments equals out to 2.65 billion dollar surplus each and every year. See we had a net over contribution. Many other provinces broke even, some are at a net loss, some made modest contributions too. Now over 40 years lets say 20 of those years we didn’t over contribute our 2.65; maybe even less but lets say 20 year we broke even and 20 years we over contributed 2.65 billion. Now 20x2.65 billion is 53 billion. Which is 53% of the 100 billion dollar fund. That isn’t calculating interest.

That is a true number. Its not made up by Lifewroks or Danielle. It is the REALITY. The problem with 53% is we can’t tell what liabilities we would owe. As some of you mentioned the newfies would be eligible for an APP benefit and anyone else who worked here. So the APP would send money to anyone who worked here at 53%. If the government wants to work those numbers out they need to present the liabilities Alberta would have to accept to receive the full 53% we are owed. Alberta can’t get the record of liabilities from CPP. The federal government has to. I wonder why they aren’t sharing? Showing the country how right Danielle is would be the scandal that loses Trudeau every Atlantic riding when they find out their CPP contributions will triple.

I have said this 8 times myself along with others.

Since you quoted myself, lets start simple. Was there a 60 year money back guarantee when the provinces and territories signed the Canadian Pension Plan in 1965 ? Simple answer is no.

If Alberta actually wants to opt out, great, lets take our share based on ten provinces and three territories, so 7.7 % of the fund. As many of you have shared, we have contributed 53% so what's not to loose right as we will make this up so fast it won't matter. I would respect Smith if this was her actual approach.

The CPP is just another tax, it is just branded with a feel good title, don't forget this simple fact.

[Dylan15]

Originally Posted by HyperMOA

This has been answered. How many times I can’t say. The sheer lack of comprehension of people astounds me.

OK lets say the CPP is worth 100 billion for craps and chuckles. Mainly because I want to use an easy number. Now lets say Alberta and our 16.5% contributions and 10% payments equals out to 2.65 billion dollar surplus each and every year. See we had a net over contribution. Many other provinces broke even, some are at a net loss, some made modest contributions too. Now over 40 years lets say 20 of those years we didn’t over contribute our 2.65; maybe even less but lets say 20 year we broke even and 20 years we over contributed 2.65 billion. Now 20x2.65 billion is 53 billion. Which is 53% of the 100 billion dollar fund. That isn’t calculating interest.

That is a true number. Its not made up by Lifewroks or Danielle. It is the REALITY. The problem with 53% is we can’t tell what liabilities we would owe. As some of you mentioned the newfies would be eligible for an APP benefit and anyone else who worked here. So the APP would send money to anyone who worked here at 53%. If the government wants to work those numbers out they need to present the liabilities Alberta would have to accept to receive the full 53% we are owed. Alberta can’t get the record of liabilities from CPP. The federal government has to. I wonder why they aren’t sharing? Showing the country how right Danielle is would be the scandal that loses Trudeau every Atlantic riding when they find out their CPP contributions will triple.

I have said this 8 times myself along with others.

Sledhead is not here to have a discussion. He is talking in circles, without numbers. He reverts back to the next argument after you counter his point.

I'm not saying to expect 53%. That is what a non biased report stated as per the guidelines in the CPP as written into the original plan. I stated 22-25% in my comments, and he ignored that going right back to something I didn't advocate for.

I also never said that politicians don't line their own pockets. They all do. However, I refuted his claim that Danielle Smith hired her cronies. She hired Trudeau's BFF for year. Just because the federal government takes 16 months to generate a report, doesn't mean that a non government entity couldn't do it in a month. Also, Danielle Smith was our premier before the election. Even if she commissioned the report before the election, good on her. I expect all levels of government to keep tabs on all programs we are involved in. If someone higher up in the chain doesn't look into things, transparency will erode, and corruption could abound.

[HyperMOA]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

Since you quoted myself, lets start simple. Was there a 60 year money back guarantee when the provinces and territories signed the Canadian Pension Plan in 1965 ? Simple answer is no.

If Alberta actually wants to opt out, great, lets take our share based on ten provinces and three territories, so 7.7 % of the fund. As many of you have shared, we have contributed 53% so what's not to loose right as we will make this up so fast it won't matter. I would respect Smith if this was her actual approach.

The CPP is just another tax, it is just branded with a feel good title, don't forget this simple fact.

Yes the CPP does have an exit strategy and it clearly states all contributions minus liabilities and cureent liabilities and its earnings can be taken. Your “simple no” is your opinion and involved zero research.

No, we don’t over fund the plan for 40 years then take 7.7% because thats how many provinces/territories there are. That is so daft, I am now dumber for having heard it. We follow the rules laid out in the CPP itself and take our 53%.

[Dylan15]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

Since you quoted myself, lets start simple. Was there a 60 year money back guarantee when the provinces and territories signed the Canadian Pension Plan in 1965 ? Simple answer is no.

If Alberta actually wants to opt out, great, lets take our share based on ten provinces and three territories, so 7.7 % of the fund. As many of you have shared, we have contributed 53% so what's not to loose right as we will make this up so fast it won't matter. I would respect Smith if this was her actual approach.

The CPP is just another tax, it is just branded with a feel good title, don't forget this simple fact.

Does per capita not count all of a sudden? Why split equally among the province? No financial plan or institution would interpret like that, so why bring it up?

It is written as legislation as a pension plan. Albertans with a brain are tired of it being a tax. The whole point of this is to right the ship. If you think its a tax, why keep stumping for it?

[HyperMOA]

Originally Posted by Dylan15

Sledhead is not here to have a discussion. He is talking in circles, without numbers. He reverts back to the next argument after you counter his point.

I'm not saying to expect 53%. That is what a non biased report stated as per the guidelines in the CPP as written into the original plan. I stated 22-25% in my comments, and he ignored that going right back to something I didn't advocate for.

I also never said that politicians don't line their own pockets. They all do. However, I refuted his claim that Danielle Smith hired her cronies. She hired Trudeau's BFF for year. Just because the federal government takes 16 months to generate a report, doesn't mean that a non government entity couldn't do it in a month. Also, Danielle Smith was our premier before the election. Even if she commissioned the report before the election, good on her. I expect all levels of government to keep tabs on all programs we are involved in. If someone higher up in the chain doesn't look into things, transparency will erode, and corruption could abound.

I agree 100%. I also believe we won’t leave (if) with 53% as it will be negotiated down to leave liabilities like the newfies from a certain date in CPP. Going forward the newfies will be part of APP. I mean those that work here, not the entire province. But the 53% of the pot does belong to Alberta employees. There is no question about it.

[Scott h]

Just did a quick count of my fingers and toes and came up with around 12 close family/friends that will be drawing their chunk of the APP every month, and not one of those 12 lives in Alberta. They worked all or part of their careers there, but no longer live there. Most will start drawing at 60, just to make sure they get a portion before it starts to draw down.
So much for province with young workers that have a long time to build up the pot. The APP will have literally millions of people across the country that will be owed a percentage come day 1, and due to the "baby boom" numbers, that liability will increase for years to come.

[Sledhead71]

Originally Posted by Dylan15

Does per capita not count all of a sudden? Why split equally among the province? No financial plan or institution would interpret like that, so why bring it up?

It is written as legislation as a pension plan. Albertans with a brain are tired of it being a tax. The whole point of this is to right the ship. If you think its a tax, why keep stumping for it?

Regardless of who administers this plan, provincial or federal it still is a tax.

Use myself as an example, I have no children nor am I married. I have contributed the max for the majority of my working life. If I die tomorrow at the age of 52, my estate gets $ 2500. If this was an actual pension fund, well there would be a greater pay out for those not blessed to live long enough to cash out their respective contributions.

Anyways, I will most likely talk in circles and revert back to the next argument after you correct me with your facts.

Enjoy your day.

[Dylan15]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

Regardless of who administers this plan, provincial or federal it still is a tax.

Use myself as an example, I have no children nor am I married. I have contributed the max for the majority of my working life. If I die tomorrow at the age of 52, my estate gets $ 2500. If this was an actual pension fund, well there would be a greater pay out for those not blessed to live long enough to cash out their respective contributions.

Anyways, I will most likely talk in circles and revert back to the next argument after you correct me with your facts.

Enjoy your day.

We agree on that. It's not a pension fund, and it doesn't have many redeemable qualities, other than their claimed return of 10%, which does not translate into any quantitative difference for us. If the 10% annual increase actually benefited, the contributions wouldn't have needed to clime 50-60% in 5 years. Double dipping.

There is no benefit to staying. Hopefully we could collectively effect change through our MLA's on issues we have with the fund. A fund that is shaped by Albertan's could become something so much more than what exists.

[Dylan15]

Originally Posted by Scott h

Just did a quick count of my fingers and toes and came up with around 12 close family/friends that will be drawing their chunk of the APP every month, and not one of those 12 lives in Alberta. They worked all or part of their careers there, but no longer live there. Most will start drawing at 60, just to make sure they get a portion before it starts to draw down.
So much for province with young workers that have a long time to build up the pot. The APP will have literally millions of people across the country that will be owed a percentage come day 1, and due to the "baby boom" numbers, that liability will increase for years to come.

Did you look at my post with net migration numbers? While there are millions of people scattered across the country that may have contributed while here, there are more that contributed elsewhere that ended up here after the age of 65. We are not a working colony where everyone moves away to retire. 17500 more people over the age of 65 migrated to AB than elsewhere over the term of CPP, until 2016 when those sheets stopped analyses. Numbers from Stats Can

[HyperMOA]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

Regardless of who administers this plan, provincial or federal it still is a tax.

Use myself as an example, I have no children nor am I married. I have contributed the max for the majority of my working life. If I die tomorrow at the age of 52, my estate gets $ 2500. If this was an actual pension fund, well there would be a greater pay out for those not blessed to live long enough to cash out their respective contributions.

Anyways, I will most likely talk in circles and revert back to the next argument after you correct me with your facts.

Enjoy your day.

With this statement we agree.

[HyperMOA]

Originally Posted by Scott h

Just did a quick count of my fingers and toes and came up with around 12 close family/friends that will be drawing their chunk of the APP every month, and not one of those 12 lives in Alberta. They worked all or part of their careers there, but no longer live there. Most will start drawing at 60, just to make sure they get a portion before it starts to draw down.
So much for province with young workers that have a long time to build up the pot. The APP will have literally millions of people across the country that will be owed a percentage come day 1, and due to the "baby boom" numbers, that liability will increase for years to come.

Yes Scott, that is why Alberta is entitled to such a large portion because of people like your family and friends. It was also spoke about in my above post. If we left with the full 53% we have to fund all liabilities. Also, how many of your relatives worked in Alberta for say 5 years. How much benefit from CPP would they receive from 5 years of contribution? I realize that may not be the case for all your relatives but many transplants leave after 5-10 years. So in their careers APP would owe them a benefit of say 5 years and CPP would still be on the hook for the additional say 40 years of their career.

Should CPP want to negotiate these cases out of a APP/CPP hybrid (if you will) then AB will have to reduce the amount of the 53% that we contributed. Thus we have to wait for the feds.

[Unregistered user]

Bottom line, anything we can do to keep our money away from the ottawa thieves/ extortionists is a good thing.

[I’d rather be outdoors]

Originally Posted by HyperMOA

Thus we have to wait for the feds.

They already know the number, they’ll never release it willingly because it doesn’t look good for them. We should just get on with APP regardless of their stall tactics.

[Bushrat]

I see CPP as a bad investment for all Canadians. Say it makes 10% or whatever interest rate compounded yearly. Sounds great, doesn't matter to the pensioner if he only gets a 2% annual increase to his pension.

If you went to an investment broker who told you your investment would average 10% annually but you will only receive 2% and he keeps the other 8% as his fee. If you die they get to keep your entire principal and whatever compound interest that has accrued except for a $2500 death benefit payout and a small survivor benefit to any surviving spouse.. Nobody in their right mind would invest.

Suprises me that all Canadians aren't loseing their minds over this. If a private fund operated like CPP it would be disbanded and the operators would be jailed.

[roper1]

Originally Posted by Dylan15

By the way, Oil and Gas is about 20% of our GDP in Alberta. We are still doing better than most other provinces if that disappeared over night.

CPP invests in oil and gas. If we were given our due from this fund (Estimated minimum 22-25% from some economists), we wouldn't have to depend on oil and gas anymore in our investment fund anyways.

Danielle in her excellent speech tonight refutes this POV. She specifically said we need to get off the oil boom/bust cycle. You might be missing the spin-off benefits in your 20% assertion?

Now going to invest in Heritage Fund, no kidding, how many Conservative premiers have actually succeeded on that? One.

[Dylan15]

Originally Posted by roper1

Danielle in her excellent speech tonight refutes this POV. She specifically said we need to get off the oil boom/bust cycle. You might be missing the spin-off benefits in your 20% assertion?

Now going to invest in Heritage Fund, no kidding, how many Conservative premiers have actually succeeded on that? One.

Correct, my number was direct GPD. I agree on the need to diversify to a greater extent as well, but renewables aren't a viable enough revenue generating sector if you look at lifespan and costs as a direct replacement as the federal government calls for. I think that if AB was smart, trying to bring more incentives and investments in the tech sector, or in manufacturing with materials we could source in our province or some of our direct neighbors. Logistically, I don't see what we could successfully 'replace' O&G GDP with, but if AB was forced to shut down tomorrow, people here are innovative enough to find ways to keep business and investments working for themselves. That being said, our O&G industry is stable enough in the near future, as mentioned by Smith in her speech last night. If she follows through on planning, there is hope for a future where O&G is supplemented by more stable industries.

I also wonder how GPD diversification is affected by international and interprovincial migration. We added around 200000 people between both Oct 1/22 to Oct 1/23. Would be curious to see exactly where people are seeing the opportunity here and what they are willing to uproot to pursue.

[Unregistered user]

Here's a good reason we don't need ottawa playing investor with our money


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQhSN_qlLRM