Bullet Performance, What is Acceptable?

[Double Dropper]

Sooooo tried new bullets this year, 190 grain Berger VLD (hunting) loaded out of my 300 Win Mag (3050 fps) shot a 4 x4 whitetail @ 140 yards, full pass through ran 20 yards but substantial meat damage and copper fragments everywhere, but.....he is down.

Second animal 2 year old moose 100 yards quartering towards, same bullet copper fragments everywhere, and I did recover the base of the bullet with a pinch of lead in the off shoulder, weighed 25 grains. Happy in one aspect as he went down quickly but not so sure I like that level of performance.

[Mountainaccent]

I have mixed reviews on ttsx to 165 out of my 300 wsm moose at 497 small entry and exit ran 25 yards. My buck 180 yards massive blood shot 3” entry and exit ran 40 yards.Bull elk 320 yards small entry lungs jelly no exit dropped on spot

[LongBomber]

Seems everyone is looking for something different. I like enough expansion to do good damage to both lungs and an exit hole. I must have used 25-30 different bullets on game over the years, Seems like most things run 20-30 yards and then expire, unless spinal damage is there to drop it.

Lots of hunting shows put on these bang-flops and make everyone think game just keels over, well it doesn’t happen that way all the time no matter what you hit it with.

[3blade]

Hole in, hole out, blood on the ground is what makes animals dead, recoverable, and useable, so I use the ttsx and make sure my impact velocity is over 1800. Nothing is guaranteed as my elk proved, but he died in 40 yards and I only lost 2-3 lbs of meat on the opposite shoulder. Happy with that. Deer have left a trail that looked like someone walked with a red spray paint can in each hand, all dead inside 50 yards.

Almost any hole can be plugged with fat, and the size of the hole is often just as dependent on what structure you hit and how it reacts as the type of projectile. I’m very confident a ttsx will always stay together and severely damage both lungs.

You can’t count on neurological shock or frag in a large animal. The Berger craze came from a group that couldn’t care less about meat damage or wounding, they wanted to film stupid long shots and sell their products.

[58thecat]

never had good results with berger..I called them to explosive and fragile...I like two holes if possible, not worried about the ribs/heart etc being wrecked or even a shoulder....don't like tracking for hours...place the first one correctly but some bullets are thin jacketed and if a bone is touched they act like a varmint bullet and then the tracking begins.....

[Rhino81]

All I shoot and ever will shoot out of my 7 ultra will be Berger vld 180’s. Never had a single issue with meat damage because they stay together and are tremendously accurate out of my rifle. They kick ass and take names. 20-30 yards?? Try 0 yards. Been shooting them for 6 years powered by 92 grain of retumbo and it’s changed my life.

[b_doornenbal]

I think that the Berger bullets performed exactly as they are designed. They are high trauma bullet especially at close range high velocity.

There are many other bullets out there that will perform differently (not better or worse just different) at closer ranges.

Personally I’m starting to load a bonded or copper bullet for close range (<300 yards) and then carry other match grade bullets for longer shots.

Similar to your disappointment with Berger’s at close range I’m not sure you would be happy with a Barnes at 700 yards either.

[Rhino81]

Originally Posted by b_doornenbal

I think that the Berger bullets performed exactly as they are designed. They are high trauma bullet especially at close range high velocity.

There are many other bullets out there that will perform differently (not better or worse just different) at closer ranges.

Personally I’m starting to load a bonded or copper bullet for close range (<300 yards) and then carry other match grade bullets for longer shots.

Similar to your disappointment with Berger’s at close range I’m not sure you would be happy with a Barnes at 700 yards either.

I couldn’t agree more. Out beyond 500 you want a vld in the air. They do not disappoint and 30 yard tracks will be a thing others will talk about

[b_doornenbal]

Originally Posted by Rhino81

I couldn’t agree more. Out beyond 500 you want a vld in the air. They do not disappoint and 30 yard tracks will be a thing others will talk about

Agree.

People need to shoot a bullet that matches the shots they take and locations they hunt.

Even with load development I accept 1 MOA accuracy for my 300 yard bullets because it’s good enough. My longer range/match load is .3 MOA, big difference.

If you never shoot over 300 yards or thick bush I would personally only shoot copper as they are designed to perform the best in that environment.

Just my 2 cents

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Rhino81

All I shoot and ever will shoot out of my 7 ultra will be Berger vld 180’s. Never had a single issue with meat damage because they stay together and are tremendously accurate out of my rifle. They kick ass and take names. 20-30 yards?? Try 0 yards. Been shooting them for 6 years powered by 92 grain of retumbo and it’s changed my life.

my assessment was based on the early 90's...maybe they got better but left me with a not trusting feeling....kinda like the Toyota I bought in the 80's

[elkhunter11]

I want a bullet that performs in the worst situations that I may encounter. That means reaching the vitals even with shot angles that may not be idea, through heavy bone if required. And I never shoot past 500 yards at a big game animal, so I could care less how it performs at 600 yards or farther. I don't care if there is an exit hole or not, as long as the bullet causes a lot of damage to the vitals, and results in massive bleeding.

[coyoteman]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

my assessment was based on the early 90's...maybe they got better but left me with a not trusting feeling....kinda like the Toyota I bought in the 80's

Had some rust did you?? We had one in the bear camp--It ran perfectly,But the body had incredible rust damage,You tear pieces of like cardboard.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I want a bullet that performs in the worst situations that I may encounter. That means reaching the vitals even with shot angles that may not be idea, through heavy bone if required. And I never shoot past 500 yards at a big game animal, so I could care less how it performs at 600 yards or farther. I don't care if there is an exit hole or not, as long as the bullet causes a lot of damage to the vitals, and results in massive bleeding.

the ol'barnes X 140 use to do that out of my STW....Sometimes make two holes, sometimes shatter a bone and stay in but put them down sometimes where they stood or under 100 yards...I currently run ol'hornady 100gr SP's out of my 6-284...little entrance hole but huge exit holes under 200 yards...

[Pathfinder76]

I’ve shot game with a lot of different bullets. Based on observations over the years, I keep coming back to Barnes bullets. Their are trade off with every sort of bullet. I prefer the ones these bullets offer.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by coyoteman

Had some rust did you?? We had one in the bear camp--It ran perfectly,But the body had incredible rust damage,You tear pieces of like cardboard.

you know it and the tranny was a joke....should have smacked it in the engine block with a berger...put it out of its misery!

[Beeman3]

Sounds like the Berger worked good for you. Only thing I’d recommend is that you try the 215 hybrid. It’s a perfect match to the 300 Win Mag. I run them at 3000 FPS out of a 26” Brux. I always lean towards heavy for caliber when shooting Berger’s. Never had a failure. Just always be sure to check that the tips are open with a pin, paper clip or very small drill bit. I’ve always had a percentage with plugged tips. I use those for checking zero and shooting steel.

[kayaker]

I like tough bullets, bonded or preferably all copper/non-lead.

Expand and exit. I am not a big fan of explosive bullets. Rather they run a few more yards than have to deal with the fragments and bloodshot meat.

Been very happy with Barnes TSX, Lapua Naturalis, Rhino Solid Shank and Accubond's.

[32-40win]

A vld boat tailed partition would sure be nice, but, that isn't likely to happen. So, I guess we use what seems to be the best compromise available. IF it kills it, it did the job. But, some bullets were designed for certain situations, others for longer ranges, others for shorter ranges, some may even be more of a market gimmick. not really anything out there that is not some kind of compromise given the variables people use them for, and misuse them for.

[GMX]

I shoot 80gr GMX in my .243 and the 130’s in my .270 great results furthest shot was 350ish yards with the little.243. Passed through a rib on either side of the cow elk lost less than a grain of weight. I’ve only recovered three of them from that gun and none from the .270. I’ve stockpiled lots of them for shorter range bush hunting I usually do why change what works. Also had similar success with the TTSX’s I just prefer the Hornady’s six petal mushroom compared to the four Barnes produced.

I’m now looking at the ELDX or maybe the acubond in my .270 for longer ranges for deer hunting next fall.

[25-284]

That’s great penetration with a 243 . Did you ever run it across a chrony , might try them in my 243ai

[Dubious]

What is acceptable to you may not be acceptable to other people. I know guys that are in love with the burger vldh bullets and that all they use I know other guys that only shoot barns and nothing else will ever be as good as a ttsx one thing they both have in common is they both kill game they both wound game and both bullets have failures. Soooooooo match your bullet to your game/environment and what makes you feel warm and fuzzy when you pull the trigger enjoy your hunting and don’t worry about all the marketing fluff brand slaves and keeping up with the joneses. Dead is dead there will always be to much meat damage with a 300wm on white tails no matter what bullet you use.

[GMX]

Originally Posted by 25-284

That’s great penetration with a 243 . Did you ever run it across a chrony , might try them in my 243ai

No unfortunately I haven’t it’s one of those things I keep meaning to do. Dad and I have shot lots of elk and a few moose with them like I said only recovered three of them. The most weight loss out of the three is just a few grains they come as advertised and made a believer out of me. Unlike the Berger’s the hold together and still deliver an impressive wound channel. Both of my rifles I use them in shoot them very accurately.

[GMX]

Originally Posted by Dubious

What is acceptable to you may not be acceptable to other people. I know guys that are in love with the burger vldh bullets and that all they use I know other guys that only shoot barns and nothing else will ever be as good as a ttsx but one thing they both have in common is they both kill game they both wound game and both bullets have failures. Soooooooo match your bullet to your game/environment and what makes you feel warm and fuzzy when you pull the trigger enjoy your hunting and don’t worry about all the marketing fluff brand slaves and keeping up with the joneses. Dead is dead there will always be to much meat damage with a 300wm on white tails no matter what bullet you use.

No meat damage if you head shoot most of your game it’s what I try for unless circumstances dictate a lung shot.

[Dubious]

Originally Posted by GMX

No meat damage if you head shoot most of your game it’s what I try for unless circumstances dictate a lung shot.

How many deer are out there with shot off snouts broken jaws missing antlers holes in there ears missing eyes and slowly withering away from all the snipers that take headshots and only shoot 3 rounds a year. If your bean balling them you also don’t need to worry about bullet selections anything will do.

[catnthehat]

Inside 300 yards my .311 cup and core bullets between 150 and 315 grains all work super as well as the 150 grain TSX bullets I have killed animals with .
After 400 yards I still prefer a cup and core bullet but in a different cartridge and caliber .
Cat

[GMX]

Originally Posted by Dubious

How many deer are out there with shot off snouts broken jaws missing antlers holes in there ears missing eyes and slowly withering away from all the snipers that take headshots and only shoot 3 rounds a year. If your bean balling them you also don’t need to worry about bullet selections anything will do.

Zero from me but I can shoot I respect my skill and boundaries. Never shoot them straight on ( in the face ) shoot only when they turn there head or slip one under their chin game over. It’s probably not for everyone then again some guys should shoot a 300mag or the biggest caliber they can it’s the only way to dispatch an animal properly.

[Rhino81]

Originally Posted by GMX

Zero from me but I can shoot I respect my skill and boundaries. Never shoot them straight on ( in the face ) shoot only when they turn there head or slip one under their chin game over. It’s probably not for everyone then again some guys should shoot a 300mag or the biggest caliber they can it’s the only way to dispatch an animal properly.

what caliber rifle are you hunting with if you don’t mind me asking?

[Dick284]

I sort of match the bullet to the cartridge.
First I look at the muzzle velocity expected, then I find if my bullet of want shoots accurately in the rifle.

Take my .25’06, I run 100 grain(1 in 11.5” twist) Partition’s or TSX’s in it as I manage a muzzle velocity of 3440 FPS with this rifle. I think I’ve recovered 1 or two bullets from deer out of this rifle, usually after a sharp angled shot has been taken, and the TSX’s live up to their billing, pretty much having 100% weight retention.

My .280AI drives 150’s a smidge over 3000 FPS and I run 150 grain Partition’s on closer shots, and 150 grain Ballistic Tip’s for longer range stuff, although I’ve used the Partition’s a few times on stuff like a WT buck at 365yds. I’ve yet to recover a bullet in a game animal, but that’s usually because I take most of my game through the chest only and seldom seem to clip the shoulders. That includes 2 bull elk.

My .358Win and my 7x57 I run Hornady Interlock’s exclusively, and I’ve yet to recover one of these bullets except one 200 grain .358 out the neck of a cow elk I gave a coup de grace too, and that one was hung up in the vertebrae at the base of the skull.

In the first barrel on my .284Win I ran nothing but 139 BTSP Hornady Interlock’s at around 3080 FPS, I think I recovered 2 bullets out of dozens of game animals I took with that rifle. One was a face on head shot on a cow moose and after smashing through 20 + inches of spine that poor little pill still had some core attached but weighed under 50 grains. The other was a rather picture perfect looking spent bullet, that I managed to lodge into the neck of a large bodied whitetail buck on a rather sharp angled away shot at nearly 300 yds. If I remember correctly that bullet weighed in just under 100 grains.

Back in the day I ran 165 grain Sierra Gameking’s out of a 30’06 at around 2850 FPS, and I never recovered a single bullet, and every critter(mostly deer) died in a manner to suggest nothing nefarious was happening, but that was the pre internet years and all these bullet failures were obviously not reported.

I feel that we’ve collectively gotten to wrapped up in the minuteness of bullet marketing hype these days.

Choose a hunting bullet, and make sure it shoots well in your rifle.

ULD, VLD, and racy looking seem to catch everyone’s eyes, but it also seems to give the most differing results, and raise the most questions.

The fact remains most game is taken well under 300 yards, and where do these type of bullets benefit over something as boring as a Nosler Partition, or a Hornady Interlock?
If you’re breaking 3000 FPS at the muzzle think monolithic construction, and quite possibly if you are going to take shots into the next township maybe see what Nosler has in their Long Range Accubond offerings.

[Flatlandliver]

Originally Posted by LongBomber

Seems everyone is looking for something different. I like enough expansion to do good damage to both lungs and an exit hole. I must have used 25-30 different bullets on game over the years, Seems like most things run 20-30 yards and then expire, unless spinal damage is there to drop it.

Lots of hunting shows put on these bang-flops and make everyone think game just keels over, well it doesn’t happen that way all the time no matter what you hit it with.

Neck shot a cow moose and double lunged two deer this year.
168gr ttsx 3006. All three didn’t take 2 steps combined. That’s not always the case but have very rarely had to track anything beyond a few yards.
I have been super impressed with the bullet at ranges from 20 to 500 (the vast majority in the 60-150 range) yards over the last few years.

[Pioneer2]

I have been very impressed with these bullets over the past couple years at 2950fps. Always picture perfect peeled petals missing the 1-2gr polymer nose and 40 " penetration regardless of angle.