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Old 06-05-2019, 09:45 AM
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Default Outfitter allocation numbers not public information?

Ok, so after reading several of the closed threads looking for a definitive answer, I have found almost nothing. This thread in particular was a roller coaster and I commend the OP for trying to keep it on track:
http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showt...=260454&page=5

So 2 simple questions-

1) Are outfitter allocation numbers per species, per wmu public information or not?

2) If they are, who specifically (name and office) do I ask? APOS told me that only another outfitter can know that info.

Thanks in advance.
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Old 06-05-2019, 09:47 AM
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I would try apos again I used to get that information from them even though I was a member not an Outfitter

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Old 06-05-2019, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 35 whelen View Post
I would try apos again I used to get that information from them even though I was a member not an Outfitter

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If they won't give it to you try to find a member of apos a guide that can request that info

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Old 06-05-2019, 12:40 PM
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Allocation information is Absolutely public information.

APOS is responsible to give you this information upon request, though they are also allowed to charge you a fee for the effort involved.....

Send an Email to APOS... as in Do It In Writing.

If APOS doesn't respond or comply, notify F&W Policy, again by email.
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"to identify very rare, scarce or special forms of fish and wildlife outdoor recreation opportunities and to ensure that access to these opportunities continues to be available to all Albertans."
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  #5  
Old 06-05-2019, 12:57 PM
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I have asked APOS in the past and they were cooperative. If they arenít anymore. CC your request to the environment minister Jason Nixon.
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Old 06-05-2019, 02:12 PM
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CBintheNorth CBintheNorth is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walking buffalo View Post
Allocation information is Absolutely public information.

APOS is responsible to give you this information upon request, though they are also allowed to charge you a fee for the effort involved.....

Send an Email to APOS... as in Do It In Writing.

If APOS doesn't respond or comply, notify F&W Policy, again by email.
Quote:
Originally Posted by boah View Post
I have asked APOS in the past and they were cooperative. If they arenít anymore. CC your request to the environment minister Jason Nixon.
Thanks gents, I will do just that.
Wanted to get my facts straight before I went any further.
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Old 06-05-2019, 03:09 PM
MooseRiverTrapper MooseRiverTrapper is online now
 
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They say itís private. Privacy act. Well there is also the freedom of information act.
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Old 06-05-2019, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MooseRiverTrapper View Post
They say itís private. Privacy act. Well there is also the freedom of information act.
Unfortunately FOIP laws only pertain to documents/info with your name on them. In this case, FOIP is not applicable.
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Old 06-05-2019, 09:08 PM
SnipeHunter SnipeHunter is offline
 
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The purposes of this Act are

(a) to allow any person a right of access to the records in the
custody or under the control of a public body subject to
limited and specific exceptions as set out in this Act,

(b) to control the manner in which a public body may collect
personal information from individuals, to control the use
that a public body may make of that information and to
control the disclosure by a public body of that information,
(c) to allow individuals, subject to limited and specific
exceptions as set out in this Act, a right of access to personal
information about themselves that is held by a public body,
(d) to allow individuals a right to request corrections to personal
information about themselves that is held by a public body,
and
(e) to provide for independent reviews of decisions made by
public bodies under this Act and the resolution of
complaints under this Act.


As long as your FOIP request is limited to getting the numbers but not the allocations to named individual outfitters/outfitting corporations, you should be fine. Just read the act & phrase your request to comply.

https://www.servicealberta.ca/foip/m...ip-request.cfm

http://www.qp.alberta.ca/1266.cfm?pa...=9780779762071
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  #10  
Old 06-06-2019, 08:24 AM
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Last year I wrote a letter to APOS requesting how many allocations per species per WMU were available and which outfitters held allocations. They asked if I was an APOS member and when I told them I wasn't they declined on giving me any information in regards to allocations.
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  #11  
Old 06-06-2019, 11:33 AM
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Well that didn't go so smoothly....
My email to them:

"Good afternoon,

I was hoping to find the number of outfitter allocations in WMU's *** and ***, for both Black Bear and for Moose, archery and rifle.
If it's possible to know the number of outfitters in those 2 zones as well, that would be great.

Thank you,

C.B."


Their reply:

"Good morning C.B.,

Unless you are a current outfitter, APOS is unable to provide you with the information that you are looking for due to the Freedom of Information and Privacy Protection Act (FOIPP).

If you wish you may look at our public site www.apos.ab.ca, #3 Find an Outfitter, it may provide you with some information.

Regards,"


On to plan C, Stay tuned.....
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  #12  
Old 06-06-2019, 11:56 AM
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CB,


"the number of outfitter allocations in WMU's *** and ***, for both Black Bear and for Moose, archery and rifle."


I have this info for the 2013-2017 allocations.
Tell me which wmus and I'll retrieve it.

I don't think a new allocation agreement was made for 2018 on....
F&W is just running with the same numbers as in 2017.

Can't tell you the number of outfitters.... I have older info that is probably outdated.


This info was easy to get from APOS upon request....
This info is NOT confidential due to FOIP concerns.
APOS is living up to their well deserved reputation.

Send an email to F&W Policy, Matt Besko, cc to the Minister.
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Old 06-06-2019, 03:39 PM
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Why is this info only available from APOS, I would think this is something that should be posted by the ministry for anyone to access. Why should we need to go though APOS?
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Old 06-07-2019, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hilgy View Post
Why is this info only available from APOS, I would think this is something that should be posted by the ministry for anyone to access. Why should we need to go though APOS?
IMO, because APOS doesn't want the General Public to have info which might further hurt their reputation.....
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Old 06-07-2019, 10:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hilgy View Post
Why is this info only available from APOS, I would think this is something that should be posted by the ministry for anyone to access. Why should we need to go though APOS?
Because APOS is the regulatory body, not the government.
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  #16  
Old 06-07-2019, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torkdiesel View Post
Because APOS is the regulatory body, not the government.
I think perhaps you may have misread his comment, because what he said makes perfect sense.
10 years ago, if you wanted to know haw many commercial fishing licenses there were on a lake you phoned Alberta F&W (a gov't office), and they told you.
If you want to know haw many acres are going to be logged in a certain FMU you call Alberta Agriculture and Forestry (a gov't office), and they tell you.
Many more examples of this....

However, if you want to know haw many animals (a public resource) are being allocated to private business you have to ask the business? Makes absolutely zero sense.

We pay taxes of which a portion is used to manage a resource. If we want to know about the management of that resource we should get that info for free from the people we hired to do the job. Simple as that.
There is no reason I should have to play this game with a private company.
I can find out way more info about any gov't awarded contract (including who it was awarded to and for how much) than I can about how many allocations are out there. Something is seriously wrong with that.
And them throwing out FOIPP is laughable. I have asked for no personal information whatsoever, only info about gov't owned property (allocations).

I have emailed a few more people, we'll see what they say...
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  #17  
Old 06-07-2019, 08:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBintheNorth View Post
I think perhaps you may have misread his comment, because what he said makes perfect sense.
10 years ago, if you wanted to know haw many commercial fishing licenses there were on a lake you phoned Alberta F&W (a gov't office), and they told you.
If you want to know haw many acres are going to be logged in a certain FMU you call Alberta Agriculture and Forestry (a gov't office), and they tell you.
Many more examples of this....

However, if you want to know haw many animals (a public resource) are being allocated to private business you have to ask the business? Makes absolutely zero sense.

We pay taxes of which a portion is used to manage a resource. If we want to know about the management of that resource we should get that info for free from the people we hired to do the job. Simple as that.
There is no reason I should have to play this game with a private company.
I can find out way more info about any gov't awarded contract (including who it was awarded to and for how much) than I can about how many allocations are out there. Something is seriously wrong with that.
And them throwing out FOIPP is laughable. I have asked for no personal information whatsoever, only info about gov't owned property (allocations).

I have emailed a few more people, we'll see what they say...

I wasnít aware the commercial fishing industry and forestry industry had a private governing body that was designated to handle the logistics for the provincial government, interesting !

Perhaps if you would like to see it changed you can contact your UPC representative.
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  #18  
Old 06-07-2019, 08:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hilgy View Post
Why is this info only available from APOS, I would think this is something that should be posted by the ministry for anyone to access. Why should we need to go though APOS?
It's information so troublesome to the resident hunter that if it was made open and public there would likely be increased push back to outfitter allocations especially on long wait time and once in a lifetime draws.
The afga, if they had proper resident hunter representation, would publish this every year as it relates to resident draw success and applicants.
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  #19  
Old 06-07-2019, 09:35 PM
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Speak with your MLA, they can request that information, and will get an answer.
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Old 06-07-2019, 10:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torkdiesel View Post
I wasnít aware the commercial fishing industry and forestry industry had a private governing body that was designated to handle the logistics for the provincial government, interesting !

Perhaps if you would like to see it changed you can contact your UPC representative.
Commercial fishing in Ab is a thing of the past...guberment took all away
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Old 06-07-2019, 10:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torkdiesel View Post
Because APOS is the regulatory body, not the government.


Talk about a fox in the henhouse huh?

Lol at regulatory.
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  #22  
Old 06-08-2019, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torkdiesel View Post
I wasnít aware the commercial fishing industry and forestry industry had a private governing body that was designated to handle the logistics for the provincial government, interesting !

Perhaps if you would like to see it changed you can contact your UPC representative.
Your first paragraph further explains my point. They don't. And we as residents have (had) access to all that info.
Now with APOS in control, we don't. They seem to control what info they'd like the general public to have about OUR recourse. PROBLEM!

And it's UCP, and I already have. I didn't come on here to bitch, I came here for info. The bitching I do is with those that can effect change.
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Old 06-08-2019, 06:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Puma View Post
Speak with your MLA, they can request that information, and will get an answer.
Thanks, but unfortunately I'm stuck in the middle of a very acidic orange, my MLA is useless. I went over her head.
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  #24  
Old 06-08-2019, 11:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBintheNorth View Post
Your first paragraph further explains my point. They don't. And we as residents have (had) access to all that info.
Now with APOS in control, we don't. They seem to control what info they'd like the general public to have about OUR recourse. PROBLEM!

And it's UCP, and I already have. I didn't come on here to bitch, I came here for info. The bitching I do is with those that can effect change.
Ahhhh, they donít. So why are you trying to compare the two ?

I know itís UCP, my autocorrect does not.

Good luck in your fight for riotousness !
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Old 06-08-2019, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torkdiesel View Post
Ahhhh, they donít. So why are you trying to compare the two ?

I know itís UCP, my autocorrect does not.

Good luck in your fight for riotousness !
Wow, I use to have respect for your neutrality, but I'm starting to realize I may have been mistaken.
I'm comparing the two because the available info we are supplied with changes drastically between the two, yet both are in control of public resources.
This has nothing to do with righteousness. I take offence to that. All I was trying to do was find out how much TOTAL pressure there was for two species in a couple of zones. Shouldn't be privileged info on my opinion, but if you think it is, keep up the good fight.
If anyone in this province wants to know how many draws are given out to residents for ANY species, in ANY zone, that info is available and free. Including for outfitters.
Why is that a 1-way street?
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  #26  
Old 06-08-2019, 11:51 AM
MooseRiverTrapper MooseRiverTrapper is online now
 
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I would like the general public to see where mules, moose and antelope allocations are over 30% of the allotted tags.
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  #27  
Old 06-08-2019, 12:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBintheNorth View Post
Wow, I use to have respect for your neutrality, but I'm starting to realize I may have been mistaken.
I'm comparing the two because the available info we are supplied with changes drastically between the two, yet both are in control of public resources.
This has nothing to do with righteousness. I take offence to that. All I was trying to do was find out how much TOTAL pressure there was for two species in a couple of zones. Shouldn't be privileged info on my opinion, but if you think it is, keep up the good fight.
If anyone in this province wants to know how many draws are given out to residents for ANY species, in ANY zone, that info is available and free. Including for outfitters.
Why is that a 1-way street?
It would be nice to know the number of licenses available for any wmu before we apply for draws.
Right now we only know after the draws are completed
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  #28  
Old 06-08-2019, 09:56 PM
Sako123 Sako123 is offline
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Torkdiesel View Post
Because APOS is the regulatory body, not the government.
Actually Tork, APOS is not the regulatory body. APOS is a delegated administrative organization (DAO) that delivers some ministerial administration of the guiding and outfitting membership. Government owns the mandate and is the regulatory body.

They are supposed to deliver very specific deliverables; unfortunately, AEP and the fish and wildlife policy branch has failed Albertans and have not held APOS accountable. APOS has been allowed to become a dysfunctional body that lacks a basic understanding of their DAO responsibilities. The integrity of the APOS organization have been eroded to the point that they have lost the public trust.
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Old 06-08-2019, 09:59 PM
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Thank you for posting Sako123.
Itís clear you know what youíre talking about
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Old 06-09-2019, 04:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sako123 View Post
Actually Tork, APOS is not the regulatory body. APOS is a delegated administrative organization (DAO) that delivers some ministerial administration of the guiding and outfitting membership. Government owns the mandate and is the regulatory body.

They are supposed to deliver very specific deliverables; unfortunately, AEP and the fish and wildlife policy branch has failed Albertans and have not held APOS accountable. APOS has been allowed to become a dysfunctional body that lacks a basic understanding of their DAO responsibilities. The integrity of the APOS organization have been eroded to the point that they have lost the public trust.
Sure, call it whatever you want.

But APOS decides who gets to be an Outfitter and who gets to be a guide. They decide what it costs to do so and what the rules are surrounding being a guide/Outfitter. Theyíve decided if you donít purchase insurance through them you canít be an Outfitter. They also decide who can buy what allocations through different classes, what transferring allocations cost, what the compensation is for allocations that are dissolved, and what allocations can be given out to replace allocations taken away.
In fact if youíre not a member paying APOS you canít even operate in the province.

If thatís what you call ďsome ministerial administration of the guiding and outfitting membershipĒ then so be it. Iíll continue to refer to them as the governing body since they appear to make about 90% of the decisions regarding the industry as a whole, and other then enforcement the provincial government operates at arms length.
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