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  #151  
Old 02-11-2012, 09:26 AM
Tactical Lever Tactical Lever is offline
 
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Quote from AVB3: Explain life around black smokers then.

What's to explain?


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It is clear that many animals changed, evolved, mutated and adapted. Some go extinct. New species develop (think of cross-breeding in dogs and how fast a new breed can develop). 500 years ago, the Akita and the Shiba were the same breed and a mid-sized dog. Today the Akita is a large dog, and the Shiba a relatively small one.
Those are not different species. Breeding for different characteristics does not "invent" new species. You can make a poodle from selectively breeding wolves. (Don't ask me how) You cannot make lizards from selectively breeding wolves.
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  #152  
Old 02-11-2012, 09:27 AM
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why do scientists keep having to remake the flu shot?
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  #153  
Old 02-11-2012, 09:31 AM
Tactical Lever Tactical Lever is offline
 
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[QUOTE=eastcoast;1298406]
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I guess you missed my post earlier about this point, athiesm is not a religion and if it is then abstenence is a sexual position, athiesm is lack of religion, it's a way for religious folk to square the circle on athiests and say look you believe something too, although it doesn't work good try, the fact of the matter is I am not afraid to say "I don't know" where everything came from, but that doesn't mean I have to believe something that is unbeliveable, there is no sky daddy with a beard who watches you.
Well, ok. So I guess you can't disprove it then either, right?
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  #154  
Old 02-11-2012, 09:33 AM
Tactical Lever Tactical Lever is offline
 
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Originally Posted by eastcoast View Post
why do scientists keep having to remake the flu shot?
Who knows? Viruses are crazy.
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  #155  
Old 02-11-2012, 09:36 AM
eastcoast eastcoast is offline
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Originally Posted by Tactical Lever View Post
Who knows? Viruses are crazy.
no because viruses evolve.
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  #156  
Old 02-11-2012, 09:40 AM
eastcoast eastcoast is offline
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[QUOTE=Tactical Lever;1298417]
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Well, ok. So I guess you can't disprove it then either, right?
never said I could, nobody can definatively prove anything, scientists are getting closer everyday, and creationists never change their position no matter what proof there is put in front of them.you should remember that when jesus was born, man though the world was flat, the average human lived to be about 40 years old, the entire world was in the middle east because human's hadn't explored much yet, there was no medicine, people though ghouls and goblins exhisted and were to blame for disease etc, times have changed, technology has changed, we have learned alot of things in 2000 years.
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  #157  
Old 02-11-2012, 10:02 AM
Mistagin Mistagin is offline
 
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So much misinformation in this I don't know where to start !


I'll keep it very, very s-i-m-p-l-e:

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Originally Posted by eastcoast View Post
oh the old argument that something can't come from nothing, sure il bite and counter that question with another question, if everything comes from something where does god come from?
Who says God has to come from anywhere? O-kay, you do. I'll spell it out for you from a Christian perspective - God pre-existed, that means He existed before anything else. He has always existed. Always!

there are very few biologists that believe anything, most biologists are athiests, im sure if you look hard enough you can find a few that believe.
You know "most biologists" do you? Granted a lot of them are not Christian but many are. I'm fairly sure there are Muslim biologists, Hindu biologists, etc. And I personally know several Christian biologists - some of them even work in research in labs in Christian universities and medical centers and other places biologists work in!! I know, I know, it's really hard to believe that there could actually be Christians, people with a Biblical worldview, working in scientific endeavors - but there are! Amazing, eh

is there meaning of life for snails or dogs or cows or amebas? humans are vain arrogant creatures that believe the world revolves around them.
I honestly don't know if critters have any sort of "meaning of life" I don't think they go around wondering about it, nor debating / discussing it.
I agree many humans are rather vain and arrogant. None of them on here of course ! In the Biblical Christian understanding of things, God created all the non-human critters and, very pleased with it all, said, "look at that! It's good!" Then to top it all off He created people - our first parents - and He gave them a lofty mandate, namely to partner with him, which they could do because He created them with an intelligence and abilities no other critter has, and in that partnering activity they would enjoy living in relationship with him, and they would work and play and procreate and all kinds of cool stuff - enjoying it all with God. That gives humans meaning and purpose critters don't have. And, oh yeah, let's not forget that God said this would be forever - unless humans exercised their free will and chose to rebel and - that would really mess things up. One reason humans got 'vain and arrogant' is because our first parents took that path and well, here we are today.


morals weren't around beforew jesus christ exhisted? even if you believe the world is 6000 years old then 4000 of those years were before christ, are you telling me that love/hate/murder/rape etc wasn't there before jesus exhisted and humans walked around in circles wondering what to think?
Oh boy! Jesus IS God! Therefore He preexisted and was involved in creation. He became a human being so that sinful 'man' could be 'saved' and restored into relationship with God as in the beginning. For the Christian perspective on this read John 1:1-18 in the Bible.
Oh I know, from the atheist perspective the Bible can't be trusted, it's not a reliable source, it's just a fanciful 'fairy tale" and all that, but for Christians it is considered to be God's Word, presenting His truth, revealing God as He is to be known in the language(s) of 'men', so if you even want to try and understand where we're coming from you are going to have to read it!
Of course, Jesus - IN HIS HUMANITY - only 'existed' as a human being from about 2000 years ago, that does not negate His Divine nature, His 'God-ness' from eternity to eternity! Jesus was 'Christ' even before He was born in to humanity.
This is very basic Christian knowledge my misinformed friend.
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  #158  
Old 02-11-2012, 10:04 AM
Tactical Lever Tactical Lever is offline
 
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Really? There is proog that the Buddha existed. He is mentioned in several reliable sources written during his long unhappy life. When a prince goes bonkers and starves himself to the edge of death it is newsworthy.
Muhammed is mentioned in many texts written during his life. Again when you are a fairly brutal warlord and sack a few of your enemies city's it is newsworthy.
Even Joseph Smith can be absolutely and beyond all doubt proven to have been a real person. When a con man is murdered it makes good headlines.
However when a (edit) is crucified in a backwater of the Roman Empire as a common criminal it does not seem to warrant any mention. Despite the fact that eventually your name will bring down the most advanced civilisation (Roman Empire)the world has ever known and plunge the world into the horror of the dark ages and cause more war and evil to be done than any other name ever right up to present day.
Really? Didn't exist? C'mon; about 40 authors of the Bible say He did, and agreed on the facts. (Just try that on AO) Trying to dispute that it didn't happen would be akin to arguing with 3 juries that have carefully reviewed the facts and decided that it did.

The Quoran and the Torah, both believe Jesus was real. However they disagree on who he was. I think most rational people will agree that He existed.

The question is: who is He? If He was lying, would he have taken enough lashes to kill most people and still not recant? He may have, if He were
crazy enough. If they were all crazy, his disciples would have died next to Him, but they didn't. Later, they all died for there belief in Him. Horrible deaths, but none recanted. Pretty strong evidence that what transpired later, convinced them without a doubt that the Lord was who He said He was.

There are records of his disciples being real people as well.

Conversely, Joseph Smith and Buddha were the only architects of their religious writings.

The Romans saw Jesus as a threat to their control, as He was called a king. So naturally they did not give him a lot of weight in their records.

Your assertion that His birth caused suffering is a red herring. The crusades and spanish inquisition had nothing to do with God, and a lot to do with catholics and power.
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  #159  
Old 02-11-2012, 10:09 AM
Mistagin Mistagin is offline
 
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What's the point of this post? Seriously?

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Let's play Atheist Bingo while we're here.
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  #160  
Old 02-11-2012, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by eastcoast View Post
no because viruses evolve.
Thar's evidence of 'micro-evolution' (things change within themselves), not 'macro-evolution' (one thing becomes something entirely different).
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  #161  
Old 02-11-2012, 10:14 AM
eastcoast eastcoast is offline
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Originally Posted by Mistagin View Post
Thar's evidence of 'micro-evolution' (things change within themselves), not 'macro-evolution' (one thing becomes something entirely different).
when does evolution stop when jesus stops it?
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  #162  
Old 02-11-2012, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by eastcoast View Post
the average human lived to be about 40 years old,.
Can you back this up for me please? I have a different understanding.
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  #163  
Old 02-11-2012, 10:21 AM
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Can you back this up for me please? I have a different understanding.
maybe people regularly lived to over 900 years old in a time with no modern medicine?
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  #164  
Old 02-11-2012, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Tactical Lever View Post
To address your concern about 4 B.C.; the Gregorian calender was formed a number of years, after the Bible was written. There was an error in the starting dates of the calender.

Quirinius was a rector (latin for ruler, or one in position of authority) for Gaius Caesar in 1 A.D. That sounds a little like governor to me.
Nice try, but calendars CAN be reconciled and harmonized, unlike many Biblical passages.

So, seeing Joseph was not Jesus's father, how can Jesus's lineage be traced back to David?
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  #165  
Old 02-11-2012, 10:26 AM
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Thar's evidence of 'micro-evolution' (things change within themselves), not 'macro-evolution' (one thing becomes something entirely different).
Macroevolution can be seen as the sum of long periods of microevolution, and thus the two are qualitatively identical while being quantitatively different. (full disclosure - stolen quote from Wikipedia)

Last edited by avb3; 02-11-2012 at 10:51 AM.
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  #166  
Old 02-11-2012, 10:27 AM
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Macroevolution can be seen as the sum of long periods of microevolution, and thus the two are qualitatively identical while being quantitatively different.
but sky daddy said evolution isn't possible.
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  #167  
Old 02-11-2012, 10:36 AM
Mistagin Mistagin is offline
 
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reply to # 156 (for some reason I can't get it to quote in my response post).

Some of you guys make it too easy (to refute answers / comments)! Maybe you are doing it to stir the pot?

Jesus never said the earth was flat, He knew better - He created it! I'm pretty sure that when ancient people looked at the horizon of the earth they saw it curve - just like we do, and they knew it was not flat. That's not to say they fully understood it to be 'round'. Ancient cosmology had different ways to try to explain it, took quite a bit of time to get it right - helped by growing scientific knowledge.

In Jesus' day some people died young, some died old. There is plenty of evidence many people lived to be quite old (even by our standards). The apostle John is believed to have died when he was in his 90's. Paul was executed when he was in his late 60's, some suggest he may even have made it into his early 70's. Simeon and Anna in the Bible were both described as old, Anna was in her 80's.

The "entire world was in the Middle East"???? HA, ha, ha, ha, ha. Decades, centuries, millenia, before Jesus there were people known to be way down in Africa, People were in North and South America, Asia, the UK - people had been exploring all over - filling the earth as God had mandated.

No medicine? Really? You think that? Luke, who wrote the Gospel of Luke and Acts was a - get this ------ DOCTOR!

One thing you did get right - times have changed, they are always changing, technology has advanced, and in some ways we have learned a lot - not just in the past 2000 years - we've been learning since the first human walked the face of the earth.
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  #168  
Old 02-11-2012, 10:38 AM
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when does evolution stop when jesus stops it?
What kind of evolution are you asking about, micro or macro?
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  #169  
Old 02-11-2012, 10:54 AM
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What kind of evolution are you asking about, micro or macro?
They are related... see my post here
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  #170  
Old 02-11-2012, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Mistagin View Post
reply to # 156 (for some reason I can't get it to quote in my response post).

Some of you guys make it too easy (to refute answers / comments)! Maybe you are doing it to stir the pot?
Wonder if there is an easy answer to my question, seeing Joseph was not Jesus's father, how can Jesus's lineage be traced back to David?
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  #171  
Old 02-11-2012, 10:58 AM
Tactical Lever Tactical Lever is offline
 
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[QUOTE][QUOTE=eastcoast;1298433]
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never said I could, nobody can definatively prove anything, scientists are getting closer everyday,
Scientists are no closer to proving where the world came from, since they started looking for an alternate beginning.

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and creationists never change their position no matter what proof there is put in front of them.
You just told me, it can't be proven. That's something all scientists can agree on.

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you should remember that when jesus was born, man though the world was flat, the average human lived to be about 40 years old, the entire world was in the middle east because human's hadn't explored much yet, there was no medicine, people though ghouls and goblins exhisted and were to blame for disease etc, times have changed, technology has changed, we have learned alot of things in 2000 years.
And forgotten a lot too. Like how to make immense structures using dry construction with out the benefit of modern equipment. And who The Creator is.

No medicine? The Bible does not tell you that the world is flat!
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  #172  
Old 02-11-2012, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Tactical Lever View Post
Really? Didn't exist? C'mon; about 40 authors of the Bible say He did, and agreed on the facts.
Which 40 authors? If I recall correctly, there are four gospel writers, then a whole bunch of stuff by the only real person anyone can agree on, Paul, and whoever wrote Revelations, which some say is the same John who is attributed to the one gospel.

Who are the approximate other 36?
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  #173  
Old 02-11-2012, 11:06 AM
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So, an asteroid killed everything? And then life started over again? So where would we find this asteroid? You can prove it definitively, can't you?
Are you daft? The asteroid didn't kill everything; some critters survived the nuclear winter aftermath; one of them being the small shrew-like critter that every single mammal on this planet evolved from over the period of 65 million years. This is common knowledge and supported by the fossil record.

And yes, we can prove it. Folks who follow science instead of reading the same book over and over kind of, you know, discover things.

Chicxulub crater, The Wiki of same.

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Actually a lot more evidence for creation. I haven't met the human scientist yet who could replicate life. If it was so easy and natural, we'd see it every day.


There is no evidence for 'Creation'. At all. None. It has to be entirely made up and them ingrained hard with faith to make it work. One glance at data reduces it to so much marsh gas.

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Oh, wait...there was those guys who zapped some "soup" and made wait for it.... life? No; wrong! They succeeded in making amino acid; you know the building blocks of life. Except it was just amino acid and that type would not support life.
Incorrect. It could not support life as it currently stands; the very earliest form of life was far simpler than bacteria; it wasn't even DNA or RNA at that point. It took billions of years for it to start changing, and during that time the conditions were changing on the planet, allowing for things to happen to the goo... making things more hospitable for life.

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There were enough people to see when it happened, so they wrote about it. It's called the Bible.

You were born a couple, few thousand years too late!
Using your own arguement, 'WERE YOU THERE?' If the answer is no, then congratulations; you have just disproved your own bible.

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You already believe "anything". Strained at the gnat, and swallowed the camel.
I don't know - I stopped believing in fairy stories a long time ago, and now I don't believe what I'm told until I can study just what they are on about.

Ugh, I don't even know why I bothered to post. The scientifically illiterate never read anything and never want to understand...

Last edited by 762Russian; 02-11-2012 at 11:13 AM.
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  #174  
Old 02-11-2012, 11:11 AM
avb3 avb3 is offline
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Conversely, Joseph Smith and Buddha were the only architects of their religious writings.
Smith had a visit from an angel, the same way a bunch of people in the bible did... you know, Abraham, Zechariah, Gabriel visits Mary (and a bunch of years later, Mohammed), Moses, Joshua and on and on.

So, was Moroni's visit to Smith any different then Gabriel visiting Mary or Mohammed?
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  #175  
Old 02-11-2012, 11:22 AM
Tactical Lever Tactical Lever is offline
 
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Originally Posted by avb3 View Post
Wonder if there is an easy answer to my question, seeing Joseph was not Jesus's father, how can Jesus's lineage be traced back to David?
???

Have some questions for you:

How did the dinosaurs stay on the planet all those years ago?

Why was the "lunar lander" built with such large feet and why weren't they needed when Buzz and Armstrong landed?

Define Cro-Magnon man.

If the purpose of evolution is to survive, what is the motive force evolving beyond microbes and why are there hundreds of answers to this original problem?
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  #176  
Old 02-11-2012, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Tactical Lever View Post
???

Have some questions for you:

How did the dinosaurs stay on the planet all those years ago?

Why was the "lunar lander" built with such large feet and why weren't they needed when Buzz and Armstrong landed?

Define Cro-Magnon man.

If the purpose of evolution is to survive, what is the motive force evolving beyond microbes and why are there hundreds of answers to this original problem?
Nice try at deflection.

So, let's get back to the question. Joseph was not Jesus's father, so how can Jesus's lineage be traced back to David?

Trying to obfuscate never looks good on a person.
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  #177  
Old 02-11-2012, 11:29 AM
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Because I was probably a bit offensive, and because this topic always gets my dandruff up, not to mention anyone who steps within 50 metres of the topic...

Here's some lazy dogs having fun.

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  #178  
Old 02-11-2012, 11:45 AM
Tactical Lever Tactical Lever is offline
 
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[QUOTE]
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Originally Posted by 762Russian View Post
Are you daft? The asteroid didn't kill everything; some critters survived the nuclear winter aftermath; one of them being the small shrew-like critter that every single mammal on this planet evolved from over the period of 65 million years. This is common knowledge and supported by the fossil record.
Carbon dating has been proven to be a sham. And you did say it killed everything. Just how do you know it was the shrew that survived? How did it alone survive? The leaps and contortions you crazies go through to prove nothing....

Quote:
And yes, we can prove it. Folks who follow science instead of reading the same book over and over kind of, you know, discover things.
Ok, I've read scientific books, including the world's greatest scientist. None of the human ones worth their salt can say what happened. Lots of theories. Like you said. You weren't there.

Quote:
Chicxulub crater, The Wiki of same.




There is no evidence for 'Creation'. At all. None. It has to be entirely made up and them ingrained hard with faith to make it work. One glance at data reduces it to so much marsh gas.
Really, then you can answer my list of questions also. For bonus points add in how giraffes survive, and how the 1st sexually reproducing animal mated.

Quote:
Incorrect. It could not support life as it currently stands; the very earliest form of life was far simpler than bacteria; it wasn't even DNA or RNA at that point. It took billions of years for it to start changing, and during that time the conditions were changing on the planet, allowing for things to happen to the goo... making things more hospitable for life.
Ok tell me how something dead changed into something living. You know; with science. Explain how it turned into something many times more complicated than a modern fighter jet, without outside influence.

Quote:
Using your own arguement, 'WERE YOU THERE?' If the answer is no, then congratulations; you have just disproved your own bible.
The same can be said for your theories. Except mine actually had eyewitness accounts.

Quote:
I don't know - I stopped believing in fairy stories a long time ago, and now I don't believe what I'm told until I can study just what they are on about.

Ugh, I don't even know why I bothered to post. The scientifically illiterate never read anything and never want to understand...
Your elitest attitude that science and the Bible does not mix is patently absurd. If you actually studied the matter with an open mind, you would find you suggest impossibilities to refute logical explanation.
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  #179  
Old 02-11-2012, 11:49 AM
Tactical Lever Tactical Lever is offline
 
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Nice try at deflection.

So, let's get back to the question. Joseph was not Jesus's father, so how can Jesus's lineage be traced back to David?

Trying to obfuscate never looks good on a person.
Right back atcha. Explain your question.

Now your turn to quit evading. I jump at the chance to learn from the knowledgeable.
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  #180  
Old 02-11-2012, 11:51 AM
Mistagin Mistagin is offline
 
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Wonder if there is an easy answer to my question, seeing Joseph was not Jesus's father, how can Jesus's lineage be traced back to David?
The same way an adopted son or daughter is part of a family today.
Joseph was recognized as Jesus' adoptive father, thus receiving all the rights and privileges of a biological son. In the times, lineage was traced through the presumed father - and just about everybody presumed Joseph as the father, which Joseph himself accepted.
Besides that, Mary was also a descendant of David; here's a link: http://christiananswers.net/dictiona...erofjesus.html
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