Social distancing

[urban rednek]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

If the govt told you to tell the public to do something that is going to kill thousands of people but you knew was a lie, could you bring yourself to tell people to go jump off a cliff? Or would you die trying to make the public aware of the truth? Looper.
I think most peopleS answer would be the same as yours.

You should direct that question to Dr. Theresa Tam.

IIRC- Dr. Bonnie Henry (BC) and Dr. Deena Hinshaw (AB) were the only experts in Canada willing to stick their necks out and tell us the truth at the beginning of the Covid-19 crisis. They trusted the experts in Hong Kong and Singapore that were already dealing with outbreaks in their populations.
All the other politically appointed senior medical personnel parroted the lies of the experts that were intent on protecting China's reputation as a fine, upstanding supporter of human rights.

Or did you experience that differently?

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by urban rednek

You should direct that question to Dr. Theresa Tam.

IIRC- Dr. Bonnie Henry (BC) and Dr. Deena Hinshaw (AB) were the only experts in Canada willing to stick their necks out and tell us the truth at the beginning of the Covid-19 crisis. They trusted the experts in Hong Kong and Singapore that were already dealing with outbreaks in their populations.
All the other politically appointed senior medical personnel parroted the lies of the experts that were intent on protecting China's reputation as a fine, upstanding supporter of human rights.

Or did you experience that differently?

Those are APPOINTED people who agree to lie to further they’re career and possibly receive kickbacks.
My post is referring to normal people like yourself, Looper, etc.
I’d blow the whistle on em if I had a chance. No matter the consequences to me.
You wouldn’t?

[sk270]

Originally Posted by Dean2

Just one example of government excess in the face of Aids.

http://uchicagogate.com/articles/201...isis-illinois/

More government action on HIV. I presume you will accept info from the CDC?

https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/policies/law/index.html

https://www.cdc.gov/hiv/policies/law.../exposure.html

Google is your buddy, I don't just make this stuff up.

Hi Dean2, thanks for the response. Although you do not make it up, I'm sure from the posts that a few people on here do.

I followed the links. There were laws regarding testing before marriage. I am old enough that my wife and I were both required by the government to be tested for syphilis before we got married. So that seems like normal public health regulations to me.

There were laws against transmitting AIDS. Again, that just seems like public health in action just as we have various reportable diseases today. I think it is reasonable to demand that people not deliberately put others at risk without informed consent.

You'll have to help me out with direction to the laws requiring condoms. Thanks again.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

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ahhh spoken like a true Brazilian….

[sk270]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

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Talking Moose, you are totally ignoring the length of time people are incapacitated by Covid-19 as well as the serious chronic effects of the virus when you say that 99.5% recover from it.

Your not wearing a mask exposes me to serious illness and death. I don't think it's much to ask for you to help me out by doing this cheap, simple thing. I know you don't agree but I hope you don't ask anybody else to help you out with very much of anything because that would make you a hypocrite. I don't know how you manage to get by without depending on the kindness of others at some point but I guess you do.

[urban rednek]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

Those are APPOINTED people who agree to lie to further they’re career and possibly receive kickbacks.
My post is referring to normal people like yourself, Looper, etc.
I’d blow the whistle on em if I had a chance. No matter the consequences to me.
You wouldn’t?

I must have misunderstood your position; sounded to me like you were saying the public should not be questioning the opinion of experts?
I, and others were merely stating that experts are not always correct. Some have even been guilty of misleading the public for various reasons. In the case of Covid-19, the politically expedient lies have lead to the deaths of fellow citizens.
Note that there is a difference between (an expert) making an honest mistake versus intentionally misleading people for political or criminal reasons.

FTR- I would happily feed violent criminals and lying traitors through a wood chipper... feet first. Prevents recidivism.

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by urban rednek

I must have misunderstood your position; sounded to me like you were saying the public should not be questioning the opinion of experts?
I, and others were merely stating that experts are not always correct. Some have even been guilty of misleading the public for various reasons. In the case of Covid-19, the politically expedient lies have lead to the deaths of fellow citizens.
Note that there is a difference between (an expert) making an honest mistake versus intentionally misleading people for political or criminal reasons.

FTR- I would happily feed violent criminals and lying traitors through a wood chipper... feet first. Prevents recidivism.

Yes experts or anyone should be questioned. They are human. Humans make mistakes. But. My point was. If 50 weathermen said it would be windy 3 days from now, I’d take their word over 50 mechanics saying it would be calm.
But yes. If there is ever a doubt. Question it. Then decide if the answer satisfies you or not.

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by sk270

Hi Dean2, thanks for the response. Although you do not make it up, I'm sure from the posts that a few people on here do.

I followed the links. There were laws regarding testing before marriage. I am old enough that my wife and I were both required by the government to be tested for syphilis before we got married. So that seems like normal public health regulations to me.

There were laws against transmitting AIDS. Again, that just seems like public health in action just as we have various reportable diseases today. I think it is reasonable to demand that people not deliberately put others at risk without informed consent.

You'll have to help me out with direction to the laws requiring condoms. Thanks again.

Next time do your own damn research. God some people are lazy.

https://www.ktnv.com/news/coronaviru...ting-clearance

“When AIDS and HIV caused uncertainty for our industry back in the 1980’s, the majority of brothel owners didn’t wait for an ordinance to be passed mandating condom use in legal brothels. We proactively instituted the mandatory use of condoms for all sexual activities. It seems amazing to think about it today, but back then condoms were rarely utilized by brothel patrons and sex workers. It was a huge change that upset a lot of clients, but it was the right thing to do back then and forevermore,” Bella said.

https://ballotpedia.org/California_P...ic_Films_(2016)

You also obviously did not read much of the links, especially the first one was not about the government looking to do what is best for you.

[sk270]

Originally Posted by Dean2

Next time do your own damn research. God some people are lazy.

https://www.ktnv.com/news/coronaviru...ting-clearance

https://ballotpedia.org/California_P...ic_Films_(2016)

Also, you also obviously did not read much of the links, especially the first one was not about the government looking to do what is best for you.

First, Dean2, I resent your swearing at me and calling me lazy. It is not called for.

Second, I followed your links. I read the first one all the way through and there was definitely nothing about requiring condoms.

Your first new reference says nothing about any government requiring condoms but does mention a brothel owner voluntarily requiring them. Again, nothing.

To reiterate, your very first link said nothing about condoms. Nothing I can find in the others does either except the last which was a failed proposal to require condoms in the making of pornographic films which is hardly the same thing as asking everyday people to wear masks to prevent death and disease.

The other links refer to all the laws in all the states that might say something and I am asking for some direction through this huge mass of material.

All I am asking is for you to direct me to a single reference of a government in Canada or the USA requiring people to use condoms. You brought it up. And please stop swearing.

[Dean2]

California Proposition 60, Condoms in Pornographic Films (2016)
California Proposition 60
Flag of California.png
Election date
November 8, 2016
Topic
Adult entertainment
Status
Defeated Defeated
Type
State statute Origin
Citizens
2016 measures
Seal of California.png

Proposition 60, the Condoms in Pornographic Films Initiative, was on the November 8, 2016, ballot in California as an initiated state statute.[1] It was defeated.

A "yes" vote supported requiring the use of condoms and other protective measures during the filming of pornographic films, as well as requiring pornography producers to pay for certain health requirements and checkups.
A "no" vote opposed this measure requiring the use of condoms and other safety measures during the filming of pornographic films

.

Apparently do not read well either. This is from the link above. Didn't pass but they tried. I never said it was made mandatory, just that there was a lot of talk about making it mandatory.

As to the Brothel owner, there was on ordinance passed making their use mandatory after that particular location voluntarily adopted them.

The whole point isn't condoms, the big issue is, if you let the government do it, there is absolutely NOTHING that they will not try to legislate. It is in fact a slippery slope. People are giving up their rights and freedoms on a false promise that by doing so the government will keep you safe. It is pure BS and the Nanny State running rampant.

P.S. If you were offended by me using Damn, I apologize. Personally I don't consider that swearing but if you do, I won't use it again in a conversation with you.

[sk270]

Originally Posted by Dean2

.

Apparently do not read well either. This is from the link above. Didn't pass but they tried. I never said it was made mandatory, just that there was a lot of talk about making it mandatory.

As to the Brothel owner, there was on ordinance passed making their use mandatory after that particular location voluntarily adopted them.

I'm not sure why you find it necessary to be insulting but if you continue this will be my last attempt at civil communication. I read well enough.

Please direct me to the place in the cited websites that refer to governments requiring condom use except in brothels and pornographic movies.

You said, "Are you willing to let the government dictate mandatory condom use? because at the height of the AIDS crisis that was under serious discussion. "

I did not believe that and I asked you to provide a reference. You responded with a link to all the legislation in all the states and, skimming that, I couldn't find anything about condoms. I asked for more specifics and you responded with repeated insults and references to pornographic movie making and brothels.

I am starting to think that you have no references to offer. You must have just pulled your statement about the AIDS crisis out of thin air to try to make a point. If you wish to continue this dialogue, please be civil.

[Bergerboy]

Originally Posted by Dean2

.

Apparently do not read well either. This is from the link above. Didn't pass but they tried. I never said it was made mandatory, just that there was a lot of talk about making it mandatory.

As to the Brothel owner, there was on ordinance passed making their use mandatory after that particular location voluntarily adopted them.

The whole point isn't condoms, the big issue is, if you let the government do it, there is absolutely NOTHING that they will not try to legislate. It is in fact a slippery slope. People are giving up their rights and freedoms on a false promise that by doing so the government will keep you safe. It is pure BS and the Nanny State running rampant.

P.S. If you were offended by me using Damn, I apologize. Personally I don't consider that swearing but if you do, I won't use it again in a conversation with you.

I agree with you as I am astounded how people will immediately jump to whatever solution the government provides without any thought. When this came out people jumped on board and immediately began to berate others who didn't do the same. Its my right to think and act freely for myself and take the consequences of my actions. I do not social distance or have made any changes to by actions from prior to the virus. If you want to distance or wear a mask or what have you, go ahead.

Here is a sample of their advice 70 years ago when the threat of an atomic strike.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKqXu-5jw60

They have a terrible track record for the advice they give when there is a new threat looming.

[sk270]

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

When this came out people jumped on board and immediately began to berate others who didn't do the same. Its my right to think and act freely for myself and take the consequences of my actions. I do not social distance or have made any changes to by actions from prior to the virus.

I would like to politely suggest that you and Dean2 are missing the point of the mask request. We are asking you to wear a mask so that those people who are shedding SARS-CoV-2 stop doing so as far as is reasonably possible. There is plenty of research showing that masks have that effect.

While the mask will provide the wearer with some protection, the most important thing is to prevent people from spreading the virus to others who might die or become chronically ill.

Fulfilling the request is cheap and easy. It would be a sign of concern and kindness for your fellow citizens.

[Bergerboy]

Originally Posted by sk270

I would like to politely suggest that you and Dean2 are missing the point of the mask request. We are asking you to wear a mask so that those people who are shedding SARS-CoV-2 stop doing so as far as is reasonably possible. There is plenty of research showing that masks have that effect.

While the mask will provide the wearer with some protection, the most important thing is to prevent people from spreading the virus to others who might die or become chronically ill.

Fulfilling the request is cheap and easy. It would be a sign of concern and kindness for your fellow citizens.

I am not missing the point. I fully comprehend it and will continue conducting my business as I choose.

[sk270]

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

I am not missing the point. I fully comprehend it and will continue conducting my business as I choose.

Humans have succeeded as a species because overall we act in ways that benefit all of our immediate group, however that may be defined. It is normal to look after the people in our family, town, city, province or whatever. A person's actions that have harmful effects on others are not merely that person's business.

All societies take collective action for the collective good. Public health authorities make many demands and requests of citizens.

I cannot understand why there is such strong opposition to a simple health-related request, that is cheap and easy, such as mask wearing.

[sk270]

Originally Posted by tri777

May I politely suggest you:
- Stay home
- Online shop
- Curb side pick up.. etc etc

You have no reason to be outside of your house with that gift of fear your(We) are carrying around.

Thank you for your civility. Actually, I am doing those things as much as possible. I guess your "fear" is my "decision in the face of all available facts" available about the current pandemic.

I am asking you to do two simple, cheap things for me and for my family. Please stay 2 m away from any of us and please wear a mask when you are out in public.

I realize that you and many others on AO will not do either of these two things. I don't understand why but I know you will act however you want to regardless of what I say, or, for that matter, what public health and government officials say. But I don't understand.

[Bergerboy]

Originally Posted by sk270

Humans have succeeded as a species because overall we act in ways that benefit all of our immediate group, however that may be defined. It is normal to look after the people in our family, town, city, province or whatever. A person's actions that have harmful effects on others are not merely that person's business.

All societies take collective action for the collective good. Public health authorities make many demands and requests of citizens.

I cannot understand why there is such strong opposition to a simple health-related request, that is cheap and easy, such as mask wearing.

If you do a quick search on my posts, you will read why I have taken this stance.

[JeanCretien]

Covid is over, we are on to BLM now. I’ll get the memo for you.


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[sk270]

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

If you do a quick search on my posts, you will read why I have taken this stance.

I looked at the latest two dozen of your posts. I can see a lot of discussion about the science surrounding SARS-CoV-2 but no explanation for not wearing a mask. Can you summarize for me?

BTW I have read a number of explanations for this behaviour from a number of people but they seem to come down to some sort of variation of: "I don't have to and you can't make me no matter how good it might be for anyone else. I might if you can persuade me why it would be good for me but you still can't make me."

I'm not saying that you are taking this stance. I just can't find a logical explanation for the vehement opposition against a public health measure.

[Bergerboy]

Originally Posted by sk270

I looked at the latest two dozen of your posts. I can see a lot of discussion about the science surrounding SARS-CoV-2 but no explanation for not wearing a mask. Can you summarize for me?

BTW I have read a number of explanations for this behaviour from a number of people but they seem to come down to some sort of variation of: "I don't have to and you can't make me no matter how good it might be for anyone else. I might if you can persuade me why it would be good for me but you still can't make me."

I'm not saying that you are taking this stance. I just can't find a logical explanation for the vehement opposition against a public health measure.

Keep looking.

[o.w.l]

Originally Posted by Smoky buck

Yup that seems to be the train of thought. The one thing Covid has done is made me hate people more then I did before the outbreak. I did not like strangers within 2 meters before Covid became a thing

My favorite was the guy who rushed up towards me well I was looking at stuff in the fishing section and demanded i move because he needed social distancing. yes people are that special out there


To those who think I am putting people at risk well I naturally don’t like strangers within 10ft so don’t worry

Covid has done the same for me, I don’t care for people at the best of times, seeing the actions of others in public since covid sure hasn’t made me like people any more. I’ll keep being a recluse in the sticks


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[Sloughsharkjigger]

US states closed then opened-up now closing again. Wear a mask, don’t wear a mask. Trillions of public money spent. Trillions lost. Continued boarder closures.

Do you feel like things are a bit out of control?

Our society does not do well with others telling them how to live their lives. This whole thing is now in the political/financial phase. Will the end result of this pandemic cripple the Country in a few years - perhaps. Will we be feeling the effects for many years to come - absolutely.

[EZM]

Originally Posted by sk270

Talking Moose, you are totally ignoring the length of time people are incapacitated by Covid-19 as well as the serious chronic effects of the virus when you say that 99.5% recover from it.

Your not wearing a mask exposes me to serious illness and death. I don't think it's much to ask for you to help me out by doing this cheap, simple thing. I know you don't agree but I hope you don't ask anybody else to help you out with very much of anything because that would make you a hypocrite. I don't know how you manage to get by without depending on the kindness of others at some point but I guess you do.

The 99.5% ??? never-mind

It has been discussed on numerous other threads - no point in comparing that number to the real ones posted by the CDC or Canadian Government's own websites is there ..... lol

There might be a bit of a "discrepancy" there.

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by EZM

The 99.5% number is complete and utter BS.

The death rate currently is ~4-5% in the US. This death rate includes unresolved cases and if you back that out - the net death rate is actually closer to 8-9% in the US (as of a few days ago).

In Canada it's 8% (most of our cases are resolved so the number is higher and there less lag and population of unresolved cases)

I don't really want to derail this thread, because it has been discussed on numerous other threads.

Did you take into account all the people that had Covid and never got tested?
Or is that 8% just the ones that got sick enough from it to get tested?

[EZM]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

Did you take into account all the people that had Covid and never got tested?

I don't want to de-rail this thread. I also edited it because it was kind of rude ( I was trying to be haha sarcastic) - my appologies.

Let me ask you only ONE question ....... If people weren't tested how do they know they had, or didn't have the virus?

Are you talking about the few thousand people who were tested and a few hundred were found to have antibodies? A few thousand is not statistically significant. Something like 200-300 showed antibodies. There are millions infected. That's a tiny fraction of what we need before we can proclaim anything just yet.

Listen - I hope that's the case but the actual rates in Europe were far, far lower than the x10 number we are hearing about.

And, keep in mind, the antibody population group was tested because, in many cases, they suspected to be post infection and could not get a test earlier - it was not a random general population sampling as far as I can ascertain.

I have to remain objective and use only the data we have right now until it's proven beyond the level of theoretical hypothesis.

Again, I hope that's the case. Frankly until we get a truly random clinical trial and a reasonable population group it's far too early to get too excited about this in my mind.

[Talking moose]

Originally Posted by EZM

I don't want to de-rail this thread. I also edited it because it was kind of rude ( I was trying to be haha sarcastic) - my appologies.

Let me ask you only ONE question ....... If people weren't tested how do they know they had, or didn't have the virus?

Are you talking about the few thousand people who were tested and found to have antibodies? A few thousand is not statistically significant.

Listen - I hope that's the case but the actual rates in Europe were far, far lower than the x10 number we are hearing about.

And, keep in mind, the antibody population group was tested because, in many cases, they suspected to be post infection and could not get a test earlier - it was not a random general population sampling as far as I can ascertain.

I have to remain objective and use only the data we have right now until it's proven beyond the level of theoretical hypothesis.

Again, I hope that's the case.

We will never know. Because not everyone from very mild to medium symptoms got tested. Likely most of them. I highly doubt 8% of the population would die from Covid.

[EZM]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

We will never know. Because not everyone from very mild to medium symptoms got tested. Likely most of them. I highly doubt 8% of the population would die from Covid.

I'd agree.

It's likely going to settle down a fair amount as doctors learn more, treatments get better, we learn to administer better drugs and other treatments until we have a vaccine.

And, as the virus matures and mutates it's likely to be less and less lethal.

I'm pretty sure the only bigger random study was done in Europe and the actual rates of antibody (or other post infection markers) was like x2 or x3 but only in urban areas - but they also had a much larger group (sample population) - I will try and find it.

Problem is only 1% of the people have been confirmed to have been exposed in the US and ~137,000 people in the US alone have died.

Even if we assume it's 10 times higher - that's still 1.37 million dead in one country.

And that's saying x 10 which has not been nailed down yet.

[RBeanz]

Originally Posted by sk270

Thank you for your first-hand input. It matches everything I read on-line from the experts. I wonder why all those expressing their opinions on AO these days regarding Covid-19 pay just as much attention to lay people as they do to researchers and front-line workers.

I do agree that people can, and should, make up their own minds but they need to start with the facts.

There is also a very real chance that all recommendations could change at any time(and they have been). That is the thing with science, it is always correcting itself. It may seem frustrating when recommendations constantly change but that is because we are learning more and changing practice to match the best information we have at the time. I certainly wouldn't want a system in place where we stick with what we originally thought because it is awkward to have to tell people "Hey we first thought this but now that we know more it turns out this different way is better" or because changing is to much work. Doesn't make it less frustrating but I think we should be happy our system can admit when it has been wrong. This whole thing has been a huge learning curve for everyone.

[270person]

Originally Posted by Bergerboy

I am not missing the point. I fully comprehend it and will continue conducting my business as I choose.

Which is exactly why the U.S. is seeing what they are now. You shouldn't need to have a government tell you what to do but some people are just better doctors than the doctors.

You choose not to practise common sense and what 99% of the medical field recommends. Smart.

Would you wear a mask at a Florida nightclub or convention right now or continue doing what You think is right? Being a medical professional and all.

[Pathfinder76]

Maybe this is a lifestyle issue. I’ve never been to a nightclub, nor a bar, my wife and I go out to eat twice a year whether we need to or not. The most crowded room I get into is a tent on a mountain in the fall. I go to the grocery store at 8:00 AM Saturday morning, and have been for years. The biggest crowd of people I see is at Church on Sunday and that’s not allowed now. So maybe it’s all about prospective.