17 Hornet Reloading~it's own thread!

[6.5 shooter]

Originally Posted by aardvaark

Thanks again for the replies, guys. Very helpful. I’ve done a little searching and haven’t been able to come up with a supply of the CFE BLK you guys mention above. Any ideas?

The only one I found was Higginson but I don’t need enough to get an order large enuf to make it worth while. Unless some of you want to team up with me and make it worth while?

X-reload has a bunch.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by 6.5 shooter

X-reload has a bunch.

Wasp Munitions in Sylvan Lake isn't far from him, and they have some in stock.

[aardvaark]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Wasp Munitions in Sylvan Lake isn't far from him, and they have some in stock.

Thanks, elk

[Albertacoyotecaller]

Just out of curiousity has anyone found any S&B Hornet ammo? Was curious on what their brass was like compared to Hornady.

[Dean2]

I shoot a LOT of Lil'Gun in the 17HH, 22 H and 221 FB. The issue most people have in finding it temp sensitive or erratic is most often a function of how they develop their loads. Lil'Gun was developed for use in 410 shot shells. Shot shell loads are published using EXACTLY the components you should use. You cannot safely swap out cases, primers wads et al when loading shotgun rounds. It is an extremely fast powder that builds pressure quickly and thus why it produces such good velocity in some rifle cartridges.

It is however very much affected by case capacity in the small cartridges. So are other powders but the slower they are the less the effect. The faster the powder the more case capacity plays a role. For example a perfectly safe load in RP 22 H brass, 13.5 grains with a 40 Vmax and Fed SP primer, would be WAY over pressure in WW or Privi brass, by almost a full grain, because both hold over a grain less powder than the RP brass. You cannot just swap simple things like primers or brass when shooting small cases, with fast powders and not expect issues.

Another thing with CZ rifles is the firing pin. For some reason many of their firing pins come out without a properly rounded and radiused tip. Examine the tip carefully with a 10x loop and you will often see a sharp point or even a circular tip with a depression in the center. Both of these easily pierce soft primers like CCI and will make an in pressure load appear over pressure. Use 600 grit to properly round over, radius and smooth the tip. Be careful you don't sand it down too far.

The other thing with CZ is they typically have a very tight chamber compared to Savage and Ruger, this will make loads run from a bit to a lot higher pressure in them. It is why you see CZ 17 HHs reaching 3600 FPS out of a 22" barrel vs the 24" test barrel, long before most of us hit max load in published load books. Mine hits 3600 FPS at 9.6 grains of Lil'Gun with Privi reformed brass (holds only a tiny bit less than current Hornady brass), Fed SR primer and 20 grain Vmax, rather than at 10 grains as Hodgdon publishes. I have seen other CZs hit 3600 at as low as 9.1 grains using the same components, which is .6 grains below Hodgdon's start load for Lil'Gun.

Lil'Gun is by far the fastest of the powders used in the 17 HH. It is 113 on the burn rate chart, 1680 is 118 and CFE is 119. For inexperienced loaders, both 1680 and CFE is are much more forgiving powders to work with. H110 and 296 are 114 and 115 on the burn rate chart but still very significantly slower burning than Lil'Gun's double based powder.

Shooting and loading the 17 HH is a whole lot of fun and makes reloads for about the same price as 17 HMR ammo with far better performance. That said, please be very careful when you are loading for this round. If you change anything go back to min load, and in the case of Lil'Gun I believe that should be 8.7 grains using Hornady or Privi brass with the 20 grain Vmax and work back up.

The 17 HH is a great round but it is an experts round for reloading. You really need to know your stuff to safely reload this round.

[amosfella]

I agree with Dean. I found in the 17 hornet that I use that a full case of powder about equivalent to H322 was pretty much spot on, and very consistent. The spreads on the velocity with no case perp other than running the case through a full length resizing die was 22- 40 fps. The factory hornady ammo I chronoed was 120 fps spread.

The rifle is a CZ, and I was using Remington 7.5 primers.

[Albertacoyotecaller]

I am going to try some 1680 today but would like to have a load with lil gun. I will also try the wc735 for it as well.

What confuses me about loading this 17 Hornet is I have data from Accurate listing 11.2 gr of 1680 as max with 20gr projectiles. I am reading an article that has them using 12.4 gr. That is a huge difference.

[Faststeel]

Originally Posted by Albertacoyotecaller

I am going to try some 1680 today but would like to have a load with lil gun. I will also try the wc735 for it as well.

What confuses me about loading this 17 Hornet is I have data from Accurate listing 11.2 gr of 1680 as max with 20gr projectiles. I am reading an article that has them using 12.4 gr. That is a huge difference.

Every rifle is different, as you well know. I am already at 11.9 in my 17 and I am going higher as my groups are still poor. I have tried Lilgun in my gun with disappointing results.
I have some CFE to try and some Vhit 120, and if nothing works I'll have no trouble finding a factory take off barrel in 22 hornet.....FS

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Albertacoyotecaller

I am going to try some 1680 today but would like to have a load with lil gun. I will also try the wc735 for it as well.

What confuses me about loading this 17 Hornet is I have data from Accurate listing 11.2 gr of 1680 as max with 20gr projectiles. I am reading an article that has them using 12.4 gr. That is a huge difference.

Different rifle, different jump to lands, different lot of powder, different primers. The assumption that all manufacturers make all rifles with identical chambers, throats,etc, is nonsense, which is why the velocities measured often vary considerably from the velocities listed in the manual. Those variances in velocity, indicate that the pressure also varies from rifle to rifle.

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by Albertacoyotecaller

I am going to try some 1680 today but would like to have a load with lil gun. I will also try the wc735 for it as well.

What confuses me about loading this 17 Hornet is I have data from Accurate listing 11.2 gr of 1680 as max with 20gr projectiles. I am reading an article that has them using 12.4 gr. That is a huge difference.

I hope that you are sticking to The Accurate/Ramshot data and stopping when the chronograph shows 3500 as you will rapidly be reaching 50,000 PSI which is saami Max for the 17 HH. Go to 12.4 and you will well over 55,000PSI and more on a hot day. This is where Small Rifle primers start to pierce and on a hot day the primers blow like I showed earlier on this thread. The only thing different between my testing and the Hornady Data showing 12.4 grains of 1680 getting 3750 was that I was using a Rem 7 1/2 primer instead of a WSR and likely -20Celsius as I was doing the test early in the spring. Like the early 17 HH Factory Ammo their Data for AA 1680 was simply much too hot and they removed LiL Gun from their data. I would advise you to go a much more appropriate powder like AA 2200 or BLK CFE if you want to safely get over 3500 with the 20 grain bullets in the 17 HH.

I know that there are those who would have you believe that different manufacturers have different size chambers and throat dimensions but I assure you that all rifles stamped 17 HH are cut to the dimensions shown in the Saami Minimum Chamber Drawing that I posted. The only difference would be the tolerances listed which are +0.002" diameter and +0.015" length. The chamber on my Savage 25 was 0.0011 " over, as measured on a fully fire formed case, but 0.0009" under Saami Max. A tight chamber, at Sammi Minimum, would create more pressure but not likely as significant as a cartridge case holding 1.0 grins less than the original Hornady brass. I found this to be the case with current Hornady factory brass when compared to the early stuff that I tested so start low. Also the Factory 20 V-Max ammo is running at closer to 3500 than 3750 and primer pockets are still almost too tight to seat a primer with an RCBS hand held seater.

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by lclund1946

I hope that you are sticking to The Accurate/Ramshot data and stopping when the chronograph shows 3500 as you will rapidly be reaching 50,000 PSI which is saami Max for the 17 HH. Go to 12.4 and you will well over 55,000PSI and more on a hot day. This is where Small Rifle primers start to pierce and on a hot day the primers blow like I showed earlier on this thread. The only thing different between my testing and the Hornady Data showing 12.4 grains of 1680 getting 3750 was that I was using a Rem 7 1/2 primer instead of a WSR and likely -20Celsius as I was doing the test early in the spring. Like the early 17 HH Factory Ammo their Data for AA 1680 was simply much too hot and they removed LiL Gun from their data. I would advise you to go a much more appropriate powder like AA 2200 or BLK CFE if you want to safely get over 3500 with the 20 grain bullets in the 17 HH.

I know that there are those who would have you believe that different manufacturers have different size chambers and throat dimensions but I assure you that all rifles stamped 17 HH are cut to the dimensions shown in the Saami Minimum Chamber Drawing that I posted. The only difference would be the tolerances listed which are +0.002" diameter and +0.015" length. The chamber on my Savage 25 was 0.0011 " over, as measured on a fully fire formed case, but 0.0009" under Saami Max. A tight chamber, at Sammi Minimum, would create more pressure but not likely as significant as a cartridge case holding 1.0 grins less than the original Hornady brass. I found this to be the case with current Hornady factory brass when compared to the early stuff that I tested so start low. Also the Factory 20 V-Max ammo is running at closer to 3500 than 3750 and primer pockets are still almost too tight to seat a primer with an RCBS hand held seater.

Everything you say is correct. As to the tight chambers, they are only one variable, and likely not the biggest one but they do play a part. Stack a smaller capacity case, on a hotter primer, with a hotter powder batch, in a tight chamber with less freebore and you can easily get max pressure WAY before some of the published data out there. Even only one or two of these factors can easily have the same result.

Your advice to stick to 2200 of CFE BK is well worth heading. They are both more forgiving.

The point we are all making is that the small capacity case of the 17 HH magnifies greatly all of the known variables that impact pressure, and thus the need to be very careful when developing loads.

[Albertacoyotecaller]

I am definitely sticking to load data by manufacturer as a starting point, always have. I just can’t believe that people have gone that much over max in their rifles. That’s quite a bit in that small a cartridge. I loaded up some 1680 yesterday but it’s too windy today. I have some CFE BlK to try as well. Haven’t seen any 2200 on any shelves yet.

I have never been a big fan of speed. I will take accuracy any day over speed. This little cartridge has been a challenge to understand compared to other cartridges.

[6.5 shooter]

Originally Posted by Albertacoyotecaller

I am definitely sticking to load data by manufacturer as a starting point, always have. I just can’t believe that people have gone that much over max in their rifles. That’s quite a bit in that small a cartridge. I loaded up some 1680 yesterday but it’s too windy today. I have some CFE BlK to try as well. Haven’t seen any 2200 on any shelves yet.

I have never been a big fan of speed. I will take accuracy any day over speed. This little cartridge has been a challenge to understand compared to other cartridges.

TOTALLY agree the gopher/coyote will not notice if I am 200 fps faster or slower.....

[aardvaark]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Wasp Munitions in Sylvan Lake isn't far from him, and they have some in stock.

I went there on Thurs. He has the CFE BLK as you said. Nice guy. He’s moving, however. I was fortunate to catch him there. KGoing to an online only operation. Put in your order and a day or 2 later pick it up at an outlet. Said his overhead is way too high. Insurance premiums being the main culprit.

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by Dean2

Everything you say is correct. As to the tight chambers, they are only one variable, and likely not the biggest one but they do play a part. Stack a smaller capacity case, on a hotter primer, with a hotter powder batch, in a tight chamber with less freebore and you can easily get max pressure WAY before some of the published data out there. Even only one or two of these factors can easily have the same result.

Your advice to stick to 2200 of CFE BK is well worth heading. They are both more forgiving.

The point we are all making is that the small capacity case of the 17 HH magnifies greatly all of the known variables that impact pressure, and thus the need to be very careful when developing loads.

That is very true with all small capacity cases and especially the 17 HH. The difference in capacity from a Saami Minimum Chamber to Maximum chamber is about 0.2 grains of the Ball Powders mentioned. One of the early 17HH cases held 14.3 grains of AA1680/2200 when new. When FL sized, with a Hornady Die, it held 0.3 grains more and 0.5 grains more when fired in a Saami Minimum Chamber. Fire form to a Saami Max chamber and a Neck sized brass held about 0.7 grains more than a new case. Sticking to Manufacture OAL most bullets leave about 0.080" - 0.100 Jump to the lands so seating out to the lands can change things quite dramatically.

However the Present cases having about 1.00 grain more case capacity and being heavier by about 1 grain heavier (thicker) present the biggest variable so starting even lower than published data would be wise. Likely the second biggest variable is the temperature instability of the ball powders mentioned so loads should be worked up to max velocity not charge weight, and tested under sustained fire, on a hot day.

[elkhunter11]

The small capacity cartridges are definitely more sensitive to small variations in powder charge, a change in the primer, or to differences in jump to the lands. The tolerances in chambers and throats mean a lot more in load using from 9 to 13 grains of powder, than in a case burning 70 -80 grains of powder. And if one chamber is at minimum toleranceces for diameter and length, with a short throat, it will produce more pressure with the same load than a max spec chamber with a long throat. In the small cases, the tolerances become significant, regardless of what some people will have you believe. As well, the Lil Gun loads are more sensitive to small changes than the CFE-BLK loads, because they use less powder to produce the same pressure. I had no issues with Lil Gun, because I started low and worked up charges, but I plan on using CFE-BLK, because it will produce similar velocities while being less sensitive to small variations, and I like the fact that copper fouling is pretty much a non factor with the CFE powders.

[Albertacoyotecaller]

Found a load of 15.2gr of Lil Gun with WSR primers and 40gr Varmageddons worked well today. Around 5/8”.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Albertacoyotecaller

Found a load of 15.2gr of Lil Gun with WSR primers and 40gr Varmageddons worked well today. Around 5/8”.

This is a thread about loading the 17 Hornet.

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by Albertacoyotecaller

Found a load of 15.2gr of Lil Gun with WSR primers and 40gr Varmageddons worked well today. Around 5/8”.

That combination would work great in a 221 FB but not in a 17 HH.

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

The small capacity cartridges are definitely more sensitive to small variations in powder charge, a change in the primer, or to differences in jump to the lands. The tolerances in chambers and throats mean a lot more in load using from 9 to 13 grains of powder, than in a case burning 70 -80 grains of powder. And if one chamber is at minimum toleranceces for diameter and length, with a short throat, it will produce more pressure with the same load than a max spec chamber with a long throat. In the small cases, the tolerances become significant, regardless of what some people will have you believe. As well, the Lil Gun loads are more sensitive to small changes than the CFE-BLK loads, because they use less powder to produce the same pressure. I had no issues with Lil Gun, because I started low and worked up charges, but I plan on using CFE-BLK, because it will produce similar velocities while being less sensitive to small variations, and I like the fact that copper fouling is pretty much a non factor with the CFE powders.

I think that we are all in agreement that small capacity cartridges are more sensitive to changes in primers, jump to the lands and differences in chamber/throat dimensions which must fall within the Saami Tolerances I mentioned.

Something we have not discussed is slight differences in bore/lands dimensions which is likely why CZ rifles usually run more pressure/Velocity/grain of powder than others. I had a 17 HMR, in a CZ, that got more velocity than a Savage with factory ammo. In fact I witnessed a case head separation in the CZ, with factory ammo, on a hot day in the gopher patch. My 17 cal. J. Dewey rod was tight in the CZ but worked fine in the Savage.

Fast burning/temp sensitive powders are also much more volatile than the slower ones which are much more forgiving. As an example Lil Gun is shown to generate 35 fps/1,200 PSI/0.1grain while CFE BLK generates 25 fps/800 PSI/0.1 grain according to Hodgdon's data. As well LilGun has a really high Nito glycerin content which I believe makes it more unstable under varying conditions. Another possibility is that the reduced load density sets up a situation where detonation comes into play with LilGun in the 17HH.

I did suggest that seating to manufacturers OAL would have bullets seated 0.080 - to over 0.100" in a 17 HH chamber. The 0.015" tolerance in FB/throat length will not have a significant impact on pressures in this case. The fact that all 17 HH minimum Saami Chambers have a 1 degree 30 Minute throat angle, 0.0502" FB and a 0.0859" throat +0.015" for Max Saami chamber seems to escape you. I have been trying to teach you this for longer than I care to mention but somehow ignorance always seems to prevail and you keep taking jabs at me??

[6.5 shooter]

Originally Posted by lclund1946

I think that we are all in agreement that small capacity cartridges are more sensitive to changes in primers, jump to the lands and differences in chamber/throat dimensions which must fall within the Saami Tolerances I mentioned.

Something we have not discussed is slight differences in bore/lands dimensions which is likely why CZ rifles usually run more pressure/Velocity/grain of powder than others. I had a 17 HMR, in a CZ, that got more velocity than a Savage with factory ammo. In fact I witnessed a case head separation in the CZ, with factory ammo, on a hot day in the gopher patch. My 17 cal. J. Dewey rod was tight in the CZ but worked fine in the Savage.

Fast burning/temp sensitive powders are also much more volatile than the slower ones which are much more forgiving. As an example Lil Gun is shown to generate 35 fps/1,200 PSI/0.1grain while CFE BLK generates 25 fps/800 PSI/0.1 grain according to Hodgdon's data. As well LilGun has a really high Nito glycerin content which I believe makes it more unstable under varying conditions. Another possibility is that the reduced load density sets up a situation where detonation comes into play with LilGun in the 17HH.

I did suggest that seating to manufacturers OAL would have bullets seated 0.080 - to over 0.100" in a 17 HH chamber. The 0.015" tolerance in FB/throat length will not have a significant impact on pressures in this case. The fact that all 17 HH minimum Saami Chambers have a 1 degree 30 Minute throat angle, 0.0502" FB and a 0.0859" throat +0.015" for Max Saami chamber seems to escape you. I have been trying to teach you this for longer than I care to mention but somehow ignorance always seems to prevail and you keep taking jabs at me??

I have had similar results between CZ and Savage. I bought the 97r? in Savage..results on gophers, were less then stellar..lots of walking wounded..and lack luster performance...not much better then my cz.22LR shooting CCI mini mags.

Sold the .17hmr in Savage..not impressed..swore I would not buy another .17hmr.....Well life being what it is I came across a really good deal on A CZ in .17hmr...WELL the difference between the two rifles is like night and day.. nearly zero walking wounded...better trajectory..better gun handling and accurate.

The CZ rifle is what a .17 HMR should be

[Dean2]

I agree with you guys, CZ makes a great 17 HMR, I actually like it better than the Anschutz I have. all in though I have had Savage and Marlin and both of them worked just great too, plus they are a lot less money. You guys are right that the CZ bores do seem to be a hair smaller, I always attributed this to the hammer forged barrels CZ uses.

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by Dean2

I agree with you guys, CZ makes a great 17 HMR, I actually like it better than the Anschutz I have. all in though I have had Savage and Marlin and both of them worked just great too, plus they are a lot less money. You guys are right that the CZ bores do seem to be a hair smaller, I always attributed this to the hammer forged barrels CZ uses.

The early Savage Varmint (can't remember model) shot almost as well as the CZ but closer to factory velocity. The CZ was at least 60 fps faster than quoted factory velocity and deadly accurate (one hole at 25 yards 1/4 MOA past that). The down side was that it did have a case head separation under sustained fire with he hot 30+ degree sun shining on the bullets. I am not sure about the hammer forged barrels being tighter but do know that Kreiger run 0.199" bores in 20 caliber where others do 0.200".

[Albertacoyotecaller]

Originally Posted by lclund1946

That combination would work great in a 221 FB but not in a 17 HH.

I am off my rocker it seems. I am loading both currently and yes that was a 221 load. Too much stuff going on right now! Need to slow life down and sit in the gopher patch for a week.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by lclund1946

I think that we are all in agreement that small capacity cartridges are more sensitive to changes in primers, jump to the lands and differences in chamber/throat dimensions which must fall within the Saami Tolerances I mentioned.

Something we have not discussed is slight differences in bore/lands dimensions which is likely why CZ rifles usually run more pressure/Velocity/grain of powder than others. I had a 17 HMR, in a CZ, that got more velocity than a Savage with factory ammo. In fact I witnessed a case head separation in the CZ, with factory ammo, on a hot day in the gopher patch. My 17 cal. J. Dewey rod was tight in the CZ but worked fine in the Savage.

Fast burning/temp sensitive powders are also much more volatile than the slower ones which are much more forgiving. As an example Lil Gun is shown to generate 35 fps/1,200 PSI/0.1grain while CFE BLK generates 25 fps/800 PSI/0.1 grain according to Hodgdon's data. As well LilGun has a really high Nito glycerin content which I believe makes it more unstable under varying conditions. Another possibility is that the reduced load density sets up a situation where detonation comes into play with LilGun in the 17HH.

I did suggest that seating to manufacturers OAL would have bullets seated 0.080 - to over 0.100" in a 17 HH chamber. The 0.015" tolerance in FB/throat length will not have a significant impact on pressures in this case. The fact that all 17 HH minimum Saami Chambers have a 1 degree 30 Minute throat angle, 0.0502" FB and a 0.0859" throat +0.015" for Max Saami chamber seems to escape you. I have been trying to teach you this for longer than I care to mention but somehow ignorance always seems to prevail and you keep taking jabs at me??

You go on and on with your hand made drawings, going so far as to state that I couldn't possibly load my 20 Tac to the lands and fit the magazine. And then when I prove to you that it is possible, you simply change the topic. The ironic thing is that the 20 Tac isn't even a SAAMI cartridge, so there is no SAAMI drawing. But of
course you change the topic again, and revert right back to your made up drawings again. And then you go so far as to calculate chanber pressures in my rifle, based on your made up drawings, which don't match the chamber and throat of my rifle. You simply don't accept that every manufacturer does not make their throats or their magazines exactly as you think that they should. I on the other hand post what I actually observe and measure for myself, and I give more credibility to information from people that do the same.

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

You go on and on with your hand made drawings, going so far as to state that I couldn't possibly load my 20 Tac to the lands and fit the magazine. And then when I prove to you that it is possible, you simply change the topic. The ironic thing is that the 20 Tac isn't even a SAAMI cartridge, so there is no SAAMI drawing. But of
course you change the topic again, and revert right back to your made up drawings again. And then you go so far as to calculate chanber pressures in my rifle, based on your made up drawings, which don't match the chamber and throat of my rifle. You simply don't accept that every manufacturer does not make their throats or their magazines exactly as you think that they should. I on the other hand post what I actually observe and measure for myself, and I give more credibility to information from people that do the same.

For your information I actually got a copy of the print of the chamber reamer that Cooper used to make your 20 Tactical. The tolerances are virtually the same at +/-0.001" diameter so I likely know more than you do about your 20 Tactical chamber. I got case capacities of the Dakota brass from others and the COL of your loaded round from you so my drawings are quite close. I actually knew the Magazine length of the Cooper Mag so would never have stated that your round would not fit in it as you claim. What I did state was that your round would not fit in a Saami length 223 magazine which is 2.26". Everything I said was factual and everything you keep harping about is a pigment of your imagination. I don't know what your problem is and don't really care but it seems to get in the way of every good conversation that we get going like this thread.

ALL SAAMI SPECED RIFLES ARE MADE THE SAME OR THEY ARE NOT SAAMI SPECKED RIFLES PERIOD. ALL WILDCAT CHAMBERINGS ARE MADE TO THE SPECS THE DESIGNER AND REAMER MAKER DETERMINE. IF SOMEONE HAS THE THROAT OR FB CHANGED THEN THEY ARE NO LONGER THE SAME AS THE SAAMI OR ORIGINAL DESIGN AND SHOULD NOT BE STAMPED AS SUCH. The 17 HH is a Saami Cartridge and the rifle to rifle/ load to load differences are what we have been discussing. I do not want anyone to get the impression that the throats are different, as you suggested, so please post factual information or refrain from posting.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by lclund1946

For your information I actually got a copy of the print of the chamber reamer that Cooper used to make your 20 Tactical. The tolerances are virtually the same at +/-0.001" diameter so I likely know more than you do about your 20 Tactical chamber. I got case capacities of the Dakota brass from others and the COL of your loaded round from you so my drawings are quite close. I actually knew the Magazine length of the Cooper Mag so would never have stated that your round would not fit in it as you claim. What I did state was that your round would not fit in a Saami length 223 magazine which is 2.26". Everything I said was factual and everything you keep harping about is a pigment of your imagination. I don't know what your problem is and don't really care but it seems to get in the way of every good conversation that we get going like this thread.

ALL SAAMI SPECED RIFLES ARE MADE THE SAME OR THEY ARE NOT SAAMI SPECKED RIFLES PERIOD. ALL WILDCAT CHAMBERINGS ARE MADE TO THE SPECS THE DESIGNER AND REAMER MAKER DETERMINE. IF SOMEONE HAS THE THROAT OR FB CHANGED THEN THEY ARE NO LONGER THE SAME AS THE SAAMI OR ORIGINAL DESIGN AND SHOULD NOT BE STAMPED AS SUCH. The 17 HH is a Saami Cartridge and the rifle to rifle/ load to load differences are what we have been discussing. I do not want anyone to get the impression that the throats are different, as you suggested, so please post factual information or refrain from posting.

You did state quite plainly that my loaded round would not fit in my magazine, , so I will give you the benefit of the doubt, by assuming that you simply forgot posting that, as the only other option is that you are lying, rather than admit your mistake. Your attitude on this forum is no better than your attitude on the other forums, you want to play the victim, that is being picked on, but the truth is that you are the instigator, rather than the victim.

[gtr]

Not hard to tell who wears out keyboards, and who wears out barrels...

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by gtr

Not hard to tell who wears out keyboards, and who wears out barrels...

Barrels are burned out by shooting, and observing the results, keyboards are worn out posting theories and calculations, and posting drawings.

[AndrewM]

Well it was a good thread. Hopefully it can stay on topic.
Got some cfe-blk from Wasp in Sylvan. Shipping was great. While ordering found some hornady one shot for rust prevention. Thanks for whoever suggested Sylvan!