We in Alberta would be insane to let this happen

[lattery1]

So our wonderful neighbors to the west are thinking they should build a refinery to process our dirty oil before it leaves the country. Why in the hell are we not shipping only refined products from Alberta to anywhere?? If we are going to be billions in debt anyhow shouldn't this be a legacy project for our tax dollars. I might just be a dumb Alberta well tester but it sure has hell makes more sense to build and refine it here than let the province of Bring Cash make $$$ off us. Lets ship refined products down the line.

[lattery1]

http://home.mytelus.com/telusen/port...CatID=National

[seymourpats]

[QUOTE=lattery1;1879046]So our wonderful neighbors to the west are thinking they should build a refinery to process our dirty oil before it leaves the country. Why in the hell are we not shipping only refined products from Alberta to anywhere?? If we are going to be billions in debt anyhow shouldn't this be a legacy project for our tax dollars. I might just be a dumb Alberta well tester but it sure has hell makes more sense to build and refine it here than let the province of Bring Cash make $$$ off us. Lets ship refined products down the line.


If you don't like BC so much, I hope you aren't one of the tens of thousands that flock there every summer

[trainerdave]

If our oil is selling at such a loss to buyers then how come we are paying so much for gasoline? And why has nobody caught on yet ...I think the refining buisness is a very profitable one indeed and perhaps our discounted crude would make it even more attractive . Big discount = bigger margin.

[seymourpats]

Well the best thing would be to get more markets, unfortunately , a pipeline is unlikely thru the 14 different first nation tribes to the pacific, the federal govt, should step in and force this if possible.

[Rod1960]

Originally Posted by seymourpats

Well the best thing would be to get more markets, unfortunately , a pipeline is unlikely thru the 14 different first nation tribes to the pacific, the federal govt, should step in and force this if possible.

Demand for tank cars to ship crude oil by rail rises at breakneck speed


By early 2015, thousands of newly minted, gleaming crude tank cars will leave the sheds of manufacturers such as Trinity Industries Inc., Union Tank Car Co. and Greenbrier Co. to carry rising North American crude production, offering some relief to the choked North American oil pipelines.

“The tank car backlog is close to 48,000, and perhaps as many as 30,000 are related to crude petroleum,” said Toby Kolstad, who runs advisory firm Rail Theory Forecasts.

The number of tank cars ordered for shipping crude and expected to be delivered by the end of 2014 will be enough to move two million barrels of oil per day, almost three times what is currently extracted from the Bakken shale basin, Mr. Kolstad said.

That’s the size of two Keystone XLs and one Seaway pipeline.

.....more

http://business.financialpost.com/20..._lsa=ae1b-fd2f

CN is already hauling out of Unity, SK with rumours of the yards in Wainwright and Biggar being expanded to accommodate tank car loading.

[CaberTosser]

The rail option seems to be more palatable to the pipeline haters; less likelihood of gargantuan undetected spills. They'd also not be needing to process out diluent as they'd probably not have to add it (thinning solvents to make the crude more pumpable/less viscous). Running the diluent requires a return pipeline adjacent to the supply pipeline and a separation facility at the shipping terminal, so its essentially eternally doing laps from the source to the tanker and back.

[deanmc]

We dont have enough workers to do what we do now.

[DarkAisling]

While I would love to see the products refined here in Alberta, if it isn't going to be here I would love to see it refined in BC before it leaves the country.

Originally Posted by seymourpats

Well the best thing would be to get more markets, unfortunately , a pipeline is unlikely thru the 14 different first nation tribes to the pacific, the federal govt, should step in and force this if possible.

The latest route may pass through land that is caught up landclaims, but it passes through no Indian reserves, Metis settlements, any provincial or national parks, protected areas, or areas of historical significance. The latest route is very good.

[braggadoe]

what/where is the "latest" route?

[stampsfan]

[QUOTE=seymourpats;1879054

If you don't like BC so much, I hope you aren't one of the tens of thousands that flock there every summer[/QUOTE]

Don't worry I for one won't be "flocking" to the great BC.....

[DarkAisling]

Originally Posted by braggadoe

what/where is the "latest" route?

I'm not at liberty to release that information. I work for one of the service providers, and have been involved in this project since 2008.

I didn't produce the maps with the latest route until last Friday and last Monday (they weren't delivered until Wednesday), and I have no idea when/if the client will make the maps public.

[CaberTosser]

Originally Posted by DarkAisling

I'm not at liberty to release that information. I work for one of the service providers, and have been involved in this project since 2008.

I didn't produce the maps with the latest route until last Friday and last Monday (they weren't delivered until Wednesday), and I have no idea when/if the client will make the maps public.

Hey stranger, you been hibernating? We've not heard from you for a bit. Kind of picturing you pacing your office talking like Rain Man about geomatics and pipeline routing....

[braggadoe]

Originally Posted by DarkAisling

I'm not at liberty to release that information. I work for one of the service providers, and have been involved in this project since 2008.

I didn't produce the maps with the latest route until last Friday and last Monday (they weren't delivered until Wednesday), and I have no idea when/if the client will make the maps public.

thanks for the reply. definitely hearing a lot of rumours, that as it stands now, the NGPL is dead.

[roughneckin]

Originally Posted by DarkAisling

While I would love to see the products refined here in Alberta, if it isn't going to be here I would love to see it refined in BC before it leaves the country.



The latest route may pass through land that is caught up landclaims, but it passes through no Indian reserves, Metis settlements, any provincial or national parks, protected areas, or areas of historical significance. The latest route is very good.

It dosen't matter if it passes through settlements or reserves they will still require consultation and involvement from every aspect of the decisions so either way they have their say and will make them known.

[roughneckin]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

The rail option seems to be more palatable to the pipeline haters; less likelihood of gargantuan undetected spills. They'd also not be needing to process out diluent as they'd probably not have to add it (thinning solvents to make the crude more pumpable/less viscous). Running the diluent requires a return pipeline adjacent to the supply pipeline and a separation facility at the shipping terminal, so its essentially eternally doing laps from the source to the tanker and back.

The diluent will still be required and then shipped back after so an extra cost will be taken off the product price still. It is pure tar that moves nowhere without it or being heated.
A lot of the opposition to these pipelines is essentially to just stop the oil sands all together. They will find some crummy way to say this is bad as well.

[CNP]

[QUOTE=seymourpats;1879054]

Originally Posted by lattery1

So our wonderful neighbors to the west are thinking they should build a refinery to process our dirty oil before it leaves the country. Why in the hell are we not shipping only refined products from Alberta to anywhere?? If we are going to be billions in debt anyhow shouldn't this be a legacy project for our tax dollars. I might just be a dumb Alberta well tester but it sure has hell makes more sense to build and refine it here than let the province of Bring Cash make $$$ off us. Lets ship refined products down the line.


If you don't like BC so much, I hope you aren't one of the tens of thousands that flock there every summer

Tax dollars do not build refineries. Governments in Canada don't own refineries. Do not confuse any lack of refineries with government spending. Governments don't build Canadian Tires stores either...Yeah, we could use a new refinery or two.

[JB_AOL]

Contrary to what you are reading, I'd find it very hard to believe that this would actually get built/approved.

NIMBY's in BC are 100x worse than here, and there's a reason it hasn't been done here yet (hint:NIMBY's).

[DarkAisling]

Originally Posted by CaberTosser

Hey stranger, you been hibernating? We've not heard from you for a bit. Kind of picturing you pacing your office talking like Rain Man about geomatics and pipeline routing....

That pretty much sums it up. But, instead of picturing Rain Man, picture a sufferer of Tourette syndrome.

Originally Posted by braggadoe

thanks for the reply. definitely hearing a lot of rumours, that as it stands now, the NGPL is dead.

Considerable work is being done on the project. And, we're in the early stages of opening up a project office in BC specifically for this project. It isn't dead (yet).

Originally Posted by roughneckin

It dosen't matter if it passes through settlements or reserves they will still require consultation and involvement from every aspect of the decisions so either way they have their say and will make them known.

I'm not in surface land so this certainly isn't my area of expertise. While I could see lands that were tied up in land-claims requiring consultation (as I've personally witnessed with the Dogrib land claim in the NWT), I don't see why the first nations would require consultation and involvement in lands that are not held by them (or disputed by them). And, there is no guarantee that it the new route isn't running through a land-claim, as I don't have good datasets for them. But, once again, surface land isn't my area of expertise. Landmen get the big bucks to make it happen. And, in the event someone won't negotiate, there is a lot of room to shift the right-of-way: which is what I get paid to do.

[CanuckShooter]

Originally Posted by DarkAisling

I'm not in surface land so this certainly isn't my area of expertise. While I could see lands that were tied up in land-claims requiring consultation (as I've personally witnessed with the Dogrib land claim in the NWT), I don't see why the first nations would require consultation and involvement in lands that are not held by them (or disputed by them). And, there is no guarantee that it the new route isn't running through a land-claim, as I don't have good datasets for them. But, once again, surface land isn't my area of expertise. Landmen get the big bucks to make it happen. And, in the event someone won't negotiate, there is a lot of room to shift the right-of-way: which is what I get paid to do.

Being a resident of BC..my understanding is that the vast majority of the proposed pipeline route is within lands that are currently under Land Claims negotiations [with the exception of the Nisga territory that signed a treaty]. Dealing with aboriginal legal claims is not something that can be brushed off, if it isn't dealt with now it will have to be some day as some recent actions have demonstrated:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/...e.html?cmp=rss

[CanuckShooter]

Originally Posted by lattery1

So our wonderful neighbors to the west are thinking they should build a refinery to process our dirty oil before it leaves the country. Why in the hell are we not shipping only refined products from Alberta to anywhere?? If we are going to be billions in debt anyhow shouldn't this be a legacy project for our tax dollars. I might just be a dumb Alberta well tester but it sure has hell makes more sense to build and refine it here than let the province of Bring Cash make $$$ off us. Lets ship refined products down the line.

The oil gurus on this site will tell you 'it's not economically viable' to build new refineries in Canada....that is what I was told when I asked the same question.

Do you now think perhaps they were BSing me???

[nick0danger]

Originally Posted by braggadoe

thanks for the reply. definitely hearing a lot of rumours, that as it stands now, the NGPL is dead.

they have not even made an application, apperently to be filed soon, so how can it be dead. quite likely will be approved, just like the one to the south which has some sections already made.

[Joe Fehr]

Originally Posted by DarkAisling

That pretty much sums it up. But, instead of picturing Rain Man, picture a sufferer of Tourette syndrome.



Considerable work is being done on the project. And, we're in the early stages of opening up a project office in BC specifically for this project. It isn't dead (yet).



I'm not in surface land so this certainly isn't my area of expertise. While I could see lands that were tied up in land-claims requiring consultation (as I've personally witnessed with the Dogrib land claim in the NWT), I don't see why the first nations would require consultation and involvement in lands that are not held by them (or disputed by them). And, there is no guarantee that it the new route isn't running through a land-claim, as I don't have good datasets for them. But, once again, surface land isn't my area of expertise. Landmen get the big bucks to make it happen. And, in the event someone won't negotiate, there is a lot of room to shift the right-of-way: which is what I get paid to do.

One big issue is the UN treaty bull that Canada signed saying the First Nations get a say in everything that happens in Canada. We need to pull out of that idiocy and run our own country.

I hope NGPL is put through. I myself would prefer to not see more trains through the Skeena Valley but if the pipeline doesn't go it will happen.

The BC gov is so full of hypocrites it isn't even funny anymore, no pipeline but we will build a refinery on the coast and ship out refined product. How do they expect to get the product there to refine?? All by train?? Export refined product by ship? I can't see that being safer then crude myself, same ships, same captains......

[Joe Fehr]

Originally Posted by CanuckShooter

The oil gurus on this site will tell you 'it's not economically viable' to build new refineries in Canada....that is what I was told when I asked the same question.

Do you now think perhaps they were BSing me???

If you read up on the proposed refinery they even say the environmental studies that are required will put the ground breaking about 10years away. That is what will eventually put this project out of the economical range. The costs of the studies, etc is all out of pocket for the company building it. Big gamble for a maybe if you ask me.

[Mutter87]

Originally Posted by seymourpats

If you don't like BC so much, I hope you aren't one of the tens of thousands that flock there every summer

Nope, I don't. I figure BC gets enough money from Alberta, they don't need mine to. We should build the refineries right on the east side of Edmonton, have buses going right to site to make it accessible for all the workers. Out source the grunt labour work to temp agencys and work place agencys.

[seymourpats]

Originally Posted by Mutter87

Nope, I don't. I figure BC gets enough money from Alberta, they don't need mine to. We should build the refineries right on the east side of Edmonton, have buses going right to site to make it accessible for all the workers. Out source the grunt labour work to temp agencys and work place agencys.

What money? The tourists? Not equalization if that's what you think.

[Mutter87]

Originally Posted by seymourpats

What money? The tourists? Not equalization if that's what you think.

You guys get some sort of greeen dollar subsidy from the Feds. Its not equalization, but some sort of back door Alberta drainin' money scheme.

Obviously its not YOU, but it is the province.

[roughneckin]

Originally Posted by CanuckShooter

Being a resident of BC..my understanding is that the vast majority of the proposed pipeline route is within lands that are currently under Land Claims negotiations [with the exception of the Nisga territory that signed a treaty]. Dealing with aboriginal legal claims is not something that can be brushed off, if it isn't dealt with now it will have to be some day as some recent actions have demonstrated:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/...e.html?cmp=rss

And there is a lot of traditional lands that are used for hunting and fishing and the such. It all depends on the government and the pressure they get. There is companies right next to Ft Mac that are consulting with First Nations all the way down to LLB.

[seymourpats]

Originally Posted by Mutter87

You guys get some sort of greeen dollar subsidy from the Feds. Its not equalization, but some sort of back door Alberta drainin' money scheme.

Obviously its not YOU, but it is the province.

Hmmm. I'll look that up.

[DarkAisling]

Originally Posted by CanuckShooter

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/...e.html?cmp=rss

That is an absolutely brilliant example: especially for anyone involved in land surveying. In my very first land survey theory class this situation was presented and discussed in depth: to ensure that it wasn't repeated.

Having done extensive work on another federal case (in the office and court room, where I worked for the reserve and not the government), which was also very old (1922), I am personally very aware of the issues at hand.

Edit: While it is incredibly discouraging that these agreements have gone neglected and swept under the rug for so long, I do find it somewhat heartening that closure is being reached on some of them. In the case I worked on, industry had been compensated for the damage done and the lands destroyed nearly 100 years ago. The band had been promised compensation, but it wasn't forth coming.