Need a "gunsmith"? be very careful (rant) (long detailed read so you may want to skip it)

[leeelmer]

The problem with gunsmiths is they can get there accreditation out of a cracker jack box(online course)
Doesn't mean they are any good.
Its not like it is in Europe, where it takes years, and at the end they are true craftsmen.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by leeelmer

The problem with gunsmiths is they can get there accreditation out of a cracker jack box(online course)
Doesn't mean they are any good.
Its not like it is in Europe, where it takes years, and at the end they are true craftsmen.

The knife cuts both ways. I know a gunsmith that apprenticed under David Miller, Jerry Fisher, Tom Burgess, Jack Belk, and graduated from and taught gunsmithing at the Colorado school of trades. He is good. In fact this week he was sent three different stocks from original Holland and Holland firearms to duplicate from three separate sources. And yet he takes no end of grief for what he does to a rifle or what he charges for his work. Someone can always do it just as well for half the price. Or so the story goes.

[andy1]

Originally Posted by leeelmer

Yes yes and yes.
I have had similar experiences with so call gunsmiths.
One in particular was.
Remington 700 laminate stainless mountain rifle
It shot terrible right out of the box. 280 rem
I was told I should have it bedded and the trigger worked.
Ok
Paid for that.
Took to the range. Shot twice and a chunk of the stock broke out behind the safety.
I was told the Remington stocks are junk.
Ok lets do a new stock
New barrel
Chamber in 280ai
Accurize action
Remember i had all ready paid for the trigger to be reworked and the first stock to be bedded.
Well got my new gun back.
It had a camo bell and carlson stock. Bedded
JB welded sleeve on the bolt(to tighten tolerances) looked horrid
Still had the j lock
Lapped lugs
Scope mounted in tally rings(my scope)
Cost???
$3100
Plus the work from before.
Poor work for premium dollars

In what area (region) was the bolt sleeved?

[Dean2]

Gitrdun definitely had mixed reviews. There were a few guys that got outstanding work done by him like Elk11 ( and Elk is a guy that knows good work when he sees it) but there were also a lot of guys that complained about getting really bad jobs done by him. There are quite a large number of smiths that get VERY mixed reviews if you talk to enough people. These are not the guys you want to trust with your guns.

When it comes to wood and a lot of work on guns that doesn't need a lathe or milling machine, I can do it myself and at at level that would be very expensive to replicate. For all the other work, I spend a lot of time to find one or two guys in each specialty that are truly top of their field, and I will pay the price it takes to have the work done by only those guys. To bad their ins;t a reliable rating system for gunsmiths and a listing of what their specialties are. Just because a smith is good with metal does not mean he is great with wood.

Sorry to hear about the problems you had, hopefully you get them straightened out.

[Nikanit]

We had a well known gunsmith here leave lathe marks on the barrel of a rifle we had...

[stob]

IDK ... that work is a cartoon! ... folks will be folks, you just can't come up with the S*** that some will pass off as great work in many professions and still think they nailed it ... Leo is a great guy and very knowledgeable ... Fishtank needs to start a thread on bad taxidermy results .. that weasel is hilarious as are the other 3

[Deer Hunter]

His work is very popular on Facebook. You see he can respond there.
Knowing he's been banned here and posting your dissatisfaction; how do you expect resolve? Maybe you two grown men should have clearly spelled out the expectations and cost before you ventured down the road to restore this 300$ parts rifle into a timeless beauty.
Maybe I'm off base as I find quality and fine craftsmanship in a Savage axis.

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by Dean2

There were a few guys that got outstanding work done by him like Elk11 ( and Elk is a guy that knows good work when he sees it)

Oh? What did he have done? I'm sure some pics from elk11 would clear this all up once and for all.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

His work is very popular on Facebook. You see he can respond there.
Knowing he's been banned here and posting your dissatisfaction; how do you expect resolve? Maybe you two grown men should have clearly spelled out the expectations and cost before you ventured down the road to restore this 300$ parts rifle into a timeless beauty.
Maybe I'm off base as I find quality and fine craftsmanship in a Savage axis.

Maybe you missed the pictures posted on this thread?

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by chuck

Maybe you missed the pictures posted on this thread?

Could there be 2 sides to this ****ing match?
I've seen these pics and the ones on Facebook. You've seen those?

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

Could there be 2 sides to this ****ing match?
I've seen these pics and the ones on Facebook. You've seen those?

Do you have pictures from a different camera or angle that makes that work look better?

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by chuck

Do you have pictures from a different camera or angle that makes that work look better?

Ask the gunsmith. Maybe send him a pm

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by Deer Hunter

Oh? What did he have done? I'm sure some pics from elk11 would clear this all up once and for all.

I don't think Elk needs to prove he had good work done, and from what pictures the OP posted it is darn clear he did not get good work done. Those pictures look like it was done buy a 4 year old with a plastic carpentry set.

If it was me I would have paid that smith absolutely Zero for the work he did and he may well have got a punch in the nose for screwing up the trigger system. There are not two sides to this story, there are just two guys that got COMPLETELY different results from the same guy.

[wwbirds]

His work is very popular on Facebook. You see he can respond there.
Knowing he's been banned here and posting your dissatisfaction; how do you expect resolve? Maybe you two grown men should have clearly spelled out the expectations and cost before you ventured down the road to restore this 300$ parts rifle into a timeless beauty.
Maybe I'm off base as I find quality and fine craftsmanship in a Savage axis.

I hired him to make me a stock with his duplicator for posts on facebook made it look like he could do that. After taking it apart as stated in my original post he found a ready made one in Edmonton at Western gun Parts who had been previously sold old of early models with a square tang. Although after the order I agreed with buying rather than making stock and the cost was well known to both of us. At no time did I ask him to disassemble the rifle and not be able to put it back together. I am not a stranger to this type of work as also posted I have previously paid both Dennis Davidson and Christian Lemieux for fitting and finishing trombone stocks. Realistically it is probably 1 or 2 hours work to do it very well. Everything we discussed was saved on text messages so it was basically all written including my budget for this effort being $300 -400.
This was not a "parts gun" but rather a functional quite rare first year production trombone from 1922 that needed wood replaced.
this is not going to be resolved by Yvan and I as that negotiation happened last week when he was holding my rifle hostage for $625.
As you can probably see from the pictures the job given to me was not worth paying any amount for so now I am tasked with finding people to fix his mess. My original post was not intended to motivate him to resolve this for he has given me the impression that he feels this is truly exceptional work and he has done me a favor by completing it. I am suggesting that arrogance and incompetence in the same person is truly rare and people should govern their choices accordingly before hiring him.
Sorry cant help you if you find beauty in an Axis

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by Dean2

I don't think Elk needs to prove he had good work done, and from what pictures the OP posted it is darn clear he did not get good work done. Those pictures look like it was done buy a 4 year old with a plastic carpentry set.

If it was me I would have paid that smith absolutely Zero for the work he did and he may well have got a punch in the nose for screwing up the trigger system. There are not two sides to this story, there are just two guys that got COMPLETELY different results from the same guy.

Punch in the nose? I like your style Dean!!

[cowmanbob]

Originally Posted by chuck

Do you have pictures from a different camera or angle that makes that work look better?

The world doesn’t have enough angles to make that a quality job.

[Deer Hunter]

Originally Posted by wwbirds

I hired him to make me a stock with his duplicator for posts on facebook made it look like he could do that. After taking it apart as stated in my original post he found a ready made one in Edmonton at Western gun Parts who had been previously sold old of early models with a square tang. Although after the order I agreed with buying rather than making stock and the cost was well known to both of us. At no time did I ask him to disassemble the rifle and not be able to put it back together. I am not a stranger to this type of work as also posted I have previously paid both Dennis Davidson and Christian Lemieux for fitting and finishing trombone stocks. Realistically it is probably 1 or 2 hours work to do it very well. Everything we discussed was saved on text messages so it was basically all written including my budget for this effort being $300 -400.
This was not a "parts gun" but rather a functional quite rare first year production trombone from 1922 that needed wood replaced.
this is not going to be resolved by Yvan and I as that negotiation happened last week when he was holding my rifle hostage for $625.
As you can probably see from the pictures the job given to me was not worth paying any amount for so now I am tasked with finding people to fix his mess. My original post was not intended to motivate him to resolve this for he has given me the impression that he feels this is truly exceptional work and he has done me a favor by completing it. I am suggesting that arrogance and incompetence in the same person is truly rare and people should govern their choices accordingly before hiring him.
Sorry cant help you if you find beauty in an Axis

Fair enough. Thanks for the clarification. I saw all the rust in the pics and thought that it was pretty far gone. I have no background with these guns and have no affiliation with the gunsmith fwiw.

[darren32]

Sorry to hear about that. The pictured do look pretty bad.

He cut a cooper action into a stock blank for me (boyds non inlet stock) and I was happy with the work. Bedded the action and finished the stock too, it looks good.

Kinda Jekyll and Hyde thing I guess.

[leeelmer]

Originally Posted by andy1

In what area (region) was the bolt sleeved?

Rear of the bolt, about a inch long.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by cowmanbob

The world doesn’t have enough angles to make that a quality job.

No crap.

[DLab]

Originally Posted by leeelmer

Rear of the bolt, about a inch long.

I've got one of those same sleeved bolts on a 700 I picked up for a really good deal,built by a fella that lives near your neck of the woods.It didn't shoot worth a damn, re-barreled it and it shoots well now.
I had another 700 bolt "bumped" not sleeved, in a different style,while truing up the action by a fella out on the Island,much cleaner and works very well.

As far as the work done here for the OP,that's bad from any or all angles,never mind not assembling the trigger group or work done that was not requested.
Seriously,what Gunsmith takes a functioning firearm apart then returns it to the owner in a non functioning state?
Unfortunately,in Alberta all that is required is a business permit and the required storage and security regulations to be followed,along with printing up some business cards and you too can also hang a shingle outside your door saying Gunsmith.
As far as I know.

[elkhunter11]

A shotgun that sells for about 8k ended up with some gouges in it. The person in question repaired and refinished the wood, and it looked better than new, the finish he used brought the grain out better. I looked at some of his other work, and the wood and metal work was impressive, nothing like the mess pictured here. He is capable of high quality work, when he applies himself.

[darren32]

It really looks to me like he decided not to finish the job when there was a dispute about the cost. I have been in his "shop" and seen some of his other work, I really don't think he would call that done.

[Deer Hunter]

At least you had good turnaround time. Covid 19 and all.

[Hawkeye]

Maybe the unexpected 'two tone' coloring of the wood and filler will look better over time...….said NO ONE ever!

[wwbirds]

Originally Posted by darren32

It really looks to me like he decided not to finish the job when there was a dispute about the cost. I have been in his "shop" and seen some of his other work, I really don't think he would call that done.

Good theory but if you read my original post he called me saying it was ready for pick up when it dried. 2 hours later I got a $625 bill and an email address on where to send it

Sent from my SM-G955W using Tapatalk

[andy1]

Originally Posted by leeelmer

Rear of the bolt, about a inch long.

rocky mtn house?

[darren32]

Originally Posted by wwbirds

Good theory but if you read my original post he called me saying it was ready for pick up when it dried. 2 hours later I got a $625 bill and an email address on where to send it

Sent from my SM-G955W using Tapatalk

Sorry, I am not trying to dispute your claim. I have not dealt with him in a few years but I know he used to do pretty good work. Maybe he went nutz, maybe he got the covid, I don't know. He cut this cooper action into a stock blank for me and the fit and finish is very good. He finished the stock and it looks decent. I didn't want a lot of hours into finish the stock because it's just a range gun.

Again, sorry you had to go thru that, no disrespect.

[buckman]

Originally Posted by leeelmer

The problem with gunsmiths is they can get there accreditation out of a cracker jack box(online course)
Doesn't mean they are any good.
Its not like it is in Europe, where it takes years, and at the end they are true craftsmen.

You said it.,and your 100% right. However there are a couple around the Province who do good work in certain areas. Not sure if there's any good all rounders though.

[wwbirds]

Received a text from Yvan first thing this morning saying he was going to refund the money I paid and hoped that would fix any animosity. I just received the EMT and thanked him.
The rifle has been packed up and sent to Leo with my thanks and he will try to remove the bedding compound or what ever that epoxy looking material is and shape and fit the stock properly.
Found a Youtube video last night from Arts gunshop entitled "restoring the Browning Trombone" It is 29 minutes long and details the disassembly of the trombone and at about the 16 minute mark it details putting the trigger and cross lock safety back together so I am confident we can put it back together after Leo works his magic (Cat said that).
Talked to Christian at his home outside Quebec city on Wednesday and while he is safe with his young family in a suburb he says that they expected non essential businesses to reopen April 15th but since Covid has ravaged Montreal and surrounding areas it is now expected businesses will remain closed until at least the end of June. He will have the hot bluing up and running for the trombone in July.
Health is wealth and everything else can be fixed. Be safe out there!