Suggestions for Emergency Generator

[HyperMOA]

Originally Posted by Dick284

A power quality analyzer (PQA)is what is used to check for “dirty power”.

And trust me when I say most commercial or residential electricians probably don’t have one, or have the know how on what to look for.

“Dirty power” comprises your 3rd, 5th, 7th and even 12th harmonics(usually only worried about 3rd and 5th in this application) as well as frequency response, and voltage response, wave form distortion, and a few other anomaly’s mostly called “noise”

Usually an electrical engineer or a technologist interpret the reads from PQA, and issue recommendations.

The reality is you were fed a bit of a line from the electrician.

If your electronics aren’t failing I wouldn’t sweat it too much.

You can buffer your electronics with a feed thru UPS systems, or inverter systems, if you are losing sleep over it.

PM me if you want.

So what is it that causes the dirty power? Where does this come from? What is actually “dirty”? What cleans up the power? Is it the result of the voltage regulator?

[urban rednek]

Originally Posted by HyperMOA

I understand your analogy, but my question is what causes the distorted harmonics or whatever causes the sine wave to distort? Is it irregular voltage or something else entirely? I get that electronics want a clean sine wave, but what is the culprit of the THD mentioned earlier?

The harmonic distortion created by a generating system is caused by the impedance in the generator. The lower the impedance, the lower the harmonic distortion. That applies to all generating systems.
All non-linear loads within your home generate further harmonic distortion that adds to, and compounds, the problem.
Besides purchasing products with the lowest THD ratings, the only current solution is to install a filter with active sine wave tracking on your electrical distribution panel.

[HyperMOA]

Originally Posted by urban rednek

The harmonic distortion created by a generating system is caused by the impedance in the generator. The lower the impedance, the lower the harmonic distortion. That applies to all generating systems.
All non-linear loads within your home generate further harmonic distortion that adds to, and compounds, the problem.
Besides purchasing products with the lowest THD ratings, the only current solution is to install a filter with active sine wave tracking on your electrical distribution panel.

OK, I'm starting to follow you. So a non-linear load would be a load that cycles correct? So instead of a steady load like a drill running its more like a drill that somebody is triggering on and off (but quicker than any of us could operate the trigger) If that is the case then the voltage regulator and rectifier are constantly over then under compensating trying to maintain the proper sine wave? Am I on the right path now?

If I'm on the right path what would be examples of a nonlinear load? OR is that how most electronics operate? My drill example is likely a poor example.

Impedance of the alternator would play a part as the higher the resistance the more voltage is required to try and compensate these peaks and valleys then, so the lower the resistance or impedance the smoother the gen can operate, is that right?

OK, I think I'm following you now, if what I am writing is close to true. So harmonic distortion is actually caused by the load, but its the quality of the generator that determines how poorly or well it handles said loads? If this is in fact the case, then you would actually need non-linear loads applied to the generator and map the sine wave to test it?

[Sledhead71]

I installed a Cummins QuietConnect natural gas back up generator at the farm c/w automatic transfer switch... Very happy with the unit, I use to do the plug and play but decided to do a permanent fix...

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by HyperMOA

So what is it that causes the dirty power? Where does this come from? What is actually “dirty”? What cleans up the power? Is it the result of the voltage regulator?

Some good reads here:

https://generatorbible.com/blog/what-is-thd/

The other part of “dirty power” is the transients imposed upon the generated waveforms, from the type of excitation used in the generator, the old carbon brush/commutator/slip ring type of excitation created all sorts of transients, due to inability to have 100% brush to surface contact 100% of the time, which causes all sorts of transients to be imposed on the sine waves(like a fuzzy sine wave).

[leeaspell]

Has anyone tried one of these for connecting your genset to your house? After reading this thread I got to Googling and came across these.

Sent from my SM-G781W using Tapatalk

[Drewski Canuck]

Costco's Firman Generator is a 3 way fuel setup. That means Natural Gas, Propane, as well as gasoline.

Nice part for the Genset is that it can run on Propane. Gas in the machine just gums up the carburetor.

Natural Gas in the machine gives lower output, and of course the Natural Gas will go out on a major event.

For Propane, a 100 pound heater bottle full, never goes bad, and is alot of fuel to run the genset when everything else goes wrong. Propane gives 7500 watts so enough for alot of appliances and lights.

As for the sine wave issue, Firman claims in their Question and Answer section to have tested electronics on their power output and did not note any issues with the output as their testing suggests 10 % or less total harmonic distortion. Not an inverter machine, but relatively clean power.

I wonder if it is possible to put a surge suppressor on the circuits for the furnaces at the breaker box to address the concern?

Drewski

[CNP]

Originally Posted by leeaspell

Has anyone tried one of these for connecting your genset to your house? After reading this thread I got to Googling and came across these.

Sent from my SM-G781W using Tapatalk

It has very limited capacity. I would install an interlock instead of this ^

Product description
The EZ Generator Switch is a single-circuit 15 Amp, 125-volt transfer switch. It controls heating systems, lighting circuits, convenience outlets, refrigerators, sump pumps, and 120-volt well pumps. The unit is completely pre-wired and comes with 24-inch leads, wire nuts, back box, and directions / wiring diagram to connect to circuit panels or equipment. During a power outage, simply plug your extension cord (12 gauge cord recommended and only the length you need) from your generator into the EZ Generator Switch and place the switch into the Generator position. No worrying about back-feeding or messing with breakers. When the power resumes, simply place the EZ Generator Switch back into the 'Normal' position. We offer two different switches: Switched and Un-switched Neutrals. Bonded Neutral Generators require SWITCHED NEUTRAL UNITS. Floating Neutral Generators require UN-SWITCHED NEUTRAL UNITS. If you are unsure of what type of generator you have, please supply us with y

[amosfella]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

I installed a Cummins QuietConnect natural gas back up generator at the farm c/w automatic transfer switch... Very happy with the unit, I use to do the plug and play but decided to do a permanent fix...

I would go with something like that with a tri fuel setup and a few 100 pound bottles. You can pick up good expired bottles on Kijiji really cheap and get them re certified for $30 last I checked. I'd run 2 or 3 minimum of them in case there's an extended outage. If I had a gen like that, I'd have a dozen filled.

The farm's gen set is a pto driven unit. I have lots of diesel. The tractor runs all day on a small tank of fuel. We do have a large 3 phase gen set, but I think it's unnecessary to run 158KVA for the yard.

[Au revoir, Gopher]

Originally Posted by leeaspell

Has anyone tried one of these for connecting your genset to your house? After reading this thread I got to Googling and came across these.

Sent from my SM-G781W using Tapatalk

We used this

https://www.homedepot.ca/product/sie...nel/1000161600

ARG

[Sledhead71]

Originally Posted by amosfella

I would go with something like that with a tri fuel setup and a few 100 pound bottles. You can pick up good expired bottles on Kijiji really cheap and get them re certified for $30 last I checked. I'd run 2 or 3 minimum of them in case there's an extended outage. If I had a gen like that, I'd have a dozen filled.

The farm's gen set is a pto driven unit. I have lots of diesel. The tractor runs all day on a small tank of fuel. We do have a large 3 phase gen set, but I think it's unnecessary to run 158KVA for the yard.

Here is a couple pictures when we were installing the unit. We hard plumbed natural gas but left a quick connect for propane in the event it was needed. Delivers 100 amps and runs house and two shops.

[Dick284]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

Here is a couple pictures when we were installing the unit. We hard plumbed natural gas but left a quick connect for propane in the event it was needed. Delivers 100 amps and runs house and two shops.

Now there’s an install!

Done right!

[dr.crentist]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

Here is a couple pictures when we were installing the unit. We hard plumbed natural gas but left a quick connect for propane in the event it was needed. Delivers 100 amps and runs house and two shops.

This is incredible. Well done.

Do you control the transfer switch or is it automatic?

[Sledhead71]

Originally Posted by Dick284

Now there’s an install!

Done right!

Thanks Dick.

Originally Posted by dr.crentist

This is incredible. Well done.

Do you control the transfer switch or is it automatic?

Transfer switch is automatic, unit does diagnostics test every two weeks and sends data to your phone... System reacts quickly, barely notice lights dim when its switches back and forth.

[oldjeda]

We’ve considered the Costco Firman. Anyone recommend any other dual or tri-fuel models available in western Canada?

Just like to do a comparison. We’re looking for power during an outage not necessarily for off-grid living. Although the concept is getting more appealing every day...

Thanks

[CNP]

Originally Posted by oldjeda

We’ve considered the Costco Firman. Anyone recommend any other dual or tri-fuel models available in western Canada?

Just like to do a comparison. We’re looking for power during an outage not necessarily for off-grid living. Although the concept is getting more appealing every day...

Thanks

Propane and gas are expensive and you have to keep filling up the tank or changing bottles. The Firman you are considering only delivers 5,000 watts when using NG. I posted another option a few posts ^ but that particular gen is not sold in Canada right now. I see you are in Lethbridge. Drive down to Montana any buy it. It is the Champion tri fuel 10,000/8,000 model which delivers 7,000 watts using NG. Link https://www.homedepot.com/p/Champion...0416/316786218

[hunter64]

Originally Posted by Drewski Canuck

Natural Gas in the machine gives lower output, and of course the Natural Gas will go out on a major event.


Drewski

Natural Gas will never go out unless a flood or fire take it out. For simple electricity being out NG will still be on, totally self contained system that needs no power.

Really hard to see the THD without an oscilloscope, 99% of electricians wouldnt have the tools or know how to check .

Was at a friends home when his generac backup set was being hooked up to his house by a master electrician and the bs coming out of his mouth was surprisingly like listening to our glorious leader sock boy, lots of fluff and no real understanding of the subject.

MOV's will help with power going into a modern furnace, wouldnt worry about drafthood or mid-efficient furnaces.

[Quest206]

I have the multi fuel Firman generator from Costco and it seems to work well. It's nice to have the option to switch from gas to LPG or natural gas with a twist of a selector knob.