Go Back   Alberta Outdoorsmen Forum > Main Category > Fishing Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-25-2012, 12:03 AM
--Adam--'s Avatar
--Adam-- --Adam-- is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Grande Cache, AB
Posts: 86
Default Sturgeon Lake, CO Problem

Went fishing at Sturgeon Lake for my first time on Father's Day Weekend. Started out as a good trip, pulled into the bighorn campsite late friday night at young's point. Right after we got the camper backed into place, we drove to the registration box and paid for our 2 night (little did we know there was a box even closer to us, but it was dark so we paid at the one down a few stalls). The next morning, we set out in the boat to catch me my first walleye, with only 1 bite that morning i never ended up catching one (shouldve been on the water earlier). So in the afternoon i decided i would like to try again. It was pretty windy and raining during this time, so my buddy decided he wouldnt fish, he will just steer the boat since we will be doing some moving around in the wind. As we come to the boat launch with me still not catching my first walleye, an officer approaches us after we pulled the boat out of the water, he asks for our fishing licences, i showed him mine, while my buddy didnt have his on him since at camp he decided he wasnt going to fish this time, so he tells the officer he wasnt fishing but he does have a fishing licence at camp, that he would take with him when he does plan on fishing this evening. The officer let us go but ran the plates on the truck due to my buddy not providing a fishing licence?..Later that evening we set out again, and the fishing was great!, caught a couple nice walleye and a bunch of smaller ones that were released back, and even a small pike. At camp later that night, around midnight, the battery went dead on the camper while we were having a late night meal, so i went to start the generator for 10min just to switch out a battery (i know, no generators past 11pm, ill take the blame for that, even though its just 10 mins.) Anyways, i just started the generator and walked into the camper to put on a coat (literally 2 mins of generator being running), and walk out to see 2 officers standing there, warning me about the generator, so i turned it off, no problem and changed out the battery quickly in the dark....now the officers ask for my buddys fishing licence again!, my buddy refused to show them since it is 12am and he is not fishing, and wasnt fishing in the first place when he wanted to see it. The more experienced officer told the other officer that my buddy was correct and he shouldnt have asked for it, now the officer asked for registration/insurance for my buddys truck and his ID, then left for about 30mins which we waited for him to come back, there were some minor complications with the paperwork (not my deal, since its my buddys truck, so im not complaining there). So they finally leave, and we went to bed. The next day we packed up camp and started to head home, barely getting out to the highway when the same officer calls my buddys cellphone!, and asks where we are..which he replied with "leaving the campsite". The officer said we need to pay before we leave and we will be charged now. My buddy told him we paid for both nights and told him where the money was.(the officer checked the closest box to us but not both boxes in the small campsite). So, the officers reply was "oh..you shouldnt have paid in that box." (Where is the line in the campsite saying who pays at which box???its all one campsite!!). He then continues to say "if your lying to me, i will charge both of you.", In return my buddy told him "before calling us criminals, check the box, the money is there..". He also told the officer that we didnt appreciate the way we were treated at this campsite, and that we felt as if we were being watched more because of our age and looks (mid 20's). We did not break 1 law regarding fishing or camping the entire weekend(besides the generator thing, my bad) and were still hounded and considered criminals. I had the same voicemail on my house phone when i got home, saying we should have paid and that we will be charged. I phoned back and ensured the money was put in and that i wasnt being charged, and i also said i didnt appreciate the experience i had with that particular officer.

All said and done, i did get to catch my first walleye!, but as for my first experience at sturgeon lake, not impressed with the experience we had with that officer.

What are your thoughts on this?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-25-2012, 12:08 AM
BeeGuy BeeGuy is offline
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: down by the river
Posts: 11,431
Default

Track down the SOB's superior.

Sounds like harassment.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-25-2012, 07:04 AM
saskyangler's Avatar
saskyangler saskyangler is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: edmonton
Posts: 78
Default

was he a younger CO? maybe new to the game on a bit of a power trip
__________________
I'd Rather Be Fishing
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-25-2012, 07:05 AM
saskyangler's Avatar
saskyangler saskyangler is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: edmonton
Posts: 78
Default

oh ya, good job on your first walleye as well
__________________
I'd Rather Be Fishing
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-25-2012, 07:29 AM
Teamprotz's Avatar
Teamprotz Teamprotz is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: LLoydminster
Posts: 1,041
Default

Did your buddy have his boat operators card with him in the boat ? Could have cost him $280 if he didn't. It all boils down to your word against the COs word. Can't believe they were out and about near midnight.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-25-2012, 07:57 AM
Redfrog's Avatar
Redfrog Redfrog is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Between Bodo and a hard place
Posts: 19,828
Default

When I am unhappy with the service, I complain to management. you\ll feel better.
__________________
"Is there a single significant policy that Trudeau made central to his party and government that has not been a tangle of confusion, inept communication, reversal, or abandonment?" Rex Murphy


Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-25-2012, 08:16 AM
keeks's Avatar
keeks keeks is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Whitecourt
Posts: 458
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redfrog View Post
When I am unhappy with the service, I complain to management. you\ll feel better.
X2. There may be a bit of a power trip going on there. Maybe a concerned "customer" complaint is in order. Can't hurt.

k
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-25-2012, 08:26 AM
pipco pipco is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: edmonton
Posts: 390
Default

Glad you caught a few walleye.
As far as your incident, no comment. There are always two sides to the story, your side and their side. The truth usually falls between the two.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-25-2012, 08:39 AM
Lefty-Canuck's Avatar
Lefty-Canuck Lefty-Canuck is online now
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Look behind you :)
Posts: 25,490
Default

Were you guys the only campers there?? These fellas seemed awful bored to be hounding you all weekend.

One thing though. Your buddy could have offered when asked the first time for the license for them to swing by the camp to have a look at it....it is a "peace offering" that could have helped set the tone....

LC
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06-25-2012, 10:51 AM
SnoochyBoochy SnoochyBoochy is offline
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 178
Default Wowsers

I have had nothing but great experiences with F&W, even while getting a minor ticket! For the most part F&W are really nice guys/gals.
This sounds like a real douche bag officer and will probably eventually be fired or demoted to paperwork for being a knucklehead. At the end of the day you get to go home and be a walleye catching sun of a gun and he will go home and be an abuser douche bag with a small wiener.

cheers
Snooch
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 06-25-2012, 11:09 AM
dragon dragon is offline
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Leduc
Posts: 483
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pipco View Post
Glad you caught a few walleye.
As far as your incident, no comment. There are always two sides to the story, your side and their side. The truth usually falls between the two.
There are three sides... your side, their side and the truth
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 06-25-2012, 11:20 AM
nekred's Avatar
nekred nekred is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 3,726
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dragon View Post
There are three sides... your side, their side and the truth
Yup.... If I was the CO probably would have done a very similar thing... not on a power trip but being inco-operative and then being waht could be construed as evasive... (Oh i was not fishing but I have a license it is in my truck)... then later refusing to get it out of truck after already saying that could be looked at as suspicious... Then capping it off by firing up a genny after 11:00 which is not just aginst the rules but would be a nuisance to other campers... I would probably have let you borrow a 1/2 cup of sugar right into the genny's gas tank....

Then checking the closest box which would be most likely for people to put money into and not seeing your fee could easily be understood too. After all maybe you put the fee in after the officers did their duty.

Lots of this story left out. I am glad these officers are doing their job. The fact that you have actually come on here and posted how these guys were "harassing" you and you had done nothing wrong other than.....breaking rules of campground...

Where was your buddy and his license on your first trip out of the morning...

Seriously, I think you need to get a new buddy...

Your buddy's and your actions are not really the actions of a fine upstanding citizen.
__________________
That's better!...
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 06-25-2012, 11:34 AM
Yéil's Avatar
Yéil Yéil is offline
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Wainwright
Posts: 805
Default

Hmm...when the COs don't show up, don't get after annoying campers, don't nail poachers, don't check for licences, don't have a presence in any of our streams, rivers, lakes and parks then the boards are full of complaints about them about how they are doing a lousy job. When they do show up, do get after annoying campers, check for licences and park fees then the boards get the usual "the big, bad COs harassed me.. wah, wah, wah".
__________________
Cern may have the Higgs Boson, but I prefer my find of the Hugs Bison
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 06-25-2012, 11:42 AM
SnoochyBoochy SnoochyBoochy is offline
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 178
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nekred View Post
Yup.... If I was the CO probably would have done a very similar thing... not on a power trip but being inco-operative and then being waht could be construed as evasive... (Oh i was not fishing but I have a license it is in my truck)... then later refusing to get it out of truck after already saying that could be looked at as suspicious... Then capping it off by firing up a genny after 11:00 which is not just aginst the rules but would be a nuisance to other campers... I would probably have let you borrow a 1/2 cup of sugar right into the genny's gas tank....

Then checking the closest box which would be most likely for people to put money into and not seeing your fee could easily be understood too. After all maybe you put the fee in after the officers did their duty.

Lots of this story left out. I am glad these officers are doing their job. The fact that you have actually come on here and posted how these guys were "harassing" you and you had done nothing wrong other than.....breaking rules of campground...

Where was your buddy and his license on your first trip out of the morning...

Seriously, I think you need to get a new buddy...

Your buddy's and your actions are not really the actions of a fine upstanding citizen.
Granted the argument is all hinged on whether or not this is the whole truth and nothing but. For the sake of my comment I will assume that Adam is being truthful.

Coming to a campsite at midnight requesting fishing papers from someone who was not fishing is well outside of the Law and the God given right for a Man to be Free to be on water and in a campsite without fear of reprisal.
I am a huge Fan and supporter of our F&W officers, but the LAW and regulations are for them to follow all the same if not more. I applaud Adam's friend for not giving the papers because that is a stand for Freedom and For Liberty. Notice how he didn't get a ticket...there was no Law broken which means that the F&W officer crossed the line. From my point of view he probably should have become a police officer if he wanted to flex his authority and not a F&W officer.
What next? a knock at the door in a week asking to see your barbs because they heard you were fishing last week?
C'mon

Snooch
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 06-25-2012, 11:49 AM
Jamie Black R/T's Avatar
Jamie Black R/T Jamie Black R/T is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 3,385
Default

when i was your age i was often the youngest guy in the campground and know exactly how you feel.

people look at you and assume "great...party campers"

when you feel like they are being hard on you just remember how many guys in your age group DO act like idiots out there....they have a reason to question you a little harder...just give them courtesy and comply and they will realize quickely you arent part of the stereotype....and in ten years you get to be the guy who judges a book by its cover...its kinda fun LOL

And if you enjoy fishing and the outdoors....be happy you saw them enforcing anything! i havent been checked or seen a CO in almost a year...and im out every weekend.

Congrats on your first walleye
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 06-25-2012, 01:00 PM
Penner's Avatar
Penner Penner is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Edmonton
Posts: 1,023
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dragon View Post
There are three sides... your side, their side and the truth
Yup X2 on that!
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 06-25-2012, 01:25 PM
ogre's Avatar
ogre ogre is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Calgary
Posts: 569
Default

I'm going to take Adam's word and express sympathy for the lousy way which he and his friend were treated. However, I am reluctant to start wagging fingers at the CO for trying to do their job. Like others have mentioned, it could be profiling on their part to do a better job, glad Adam and his friend didn't lose their cool and get a fined for disrespecting the law.

First impression usually is very important, so the CO must have decided there is something fishy (pun not intended) about the pair, and so decided to follow on the gut instinct. Maybe we should cut them some slack, but without having to sacrifice personal rights and freedom. Good on Adam to express his discontent, as conversation is critical in defending one's legal boundary. Do follow up with a complain/vent to the superior, so they have a means to improve on their service.

On the lighter side, congrats to OP for having success at fishing.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by pikergolf View Post
Mine is so secret I don't even fish there lest someone spots me, I'm content just knowing about my secret spot.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 06-25-2012, 01:28 PM
ReconWilly's Avatar
ReconWilly ReconWilly is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 858
Default

I would take it as an educational experience and move on.

I have no doubt your both good dudes just trying to enjoy life at its best and are not out to cause any trouble, however what really happened here was that you ran it to a good officer doing his job, all your hitches were caused by YOU and your BUDDY, intentional or not i think you need to SACK UP a bit and take a little ownership in the cause of the grief you cost yourself.

Get your paperwork in order, carry your licence(Your required to by law( he wasn't fishing but poor choice)). And running a generator at midnight in a busy campground is more than asking for it.period.

You never received any tickets or worse, trust me if an officer is trying to make an example out of you there is hell to pay, you got off with a best case scenario in light of a few poor choices on your own part, enjoy it!!

Perception is everything , go get back at it and catch some monsters!! And the next time you meet an officer sworn to protect the resources that you love...THANK HIM FOR HIS SERVICE and ask how you can help.
__________________
Respect the resources or kindly choose not to use them.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 06-25-2012, 01:38 PM
topgun2269's Avatar
topgun2269 topgun2269 is online now
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 311
Default find out the name of the officer first next time

Quote:
Originally Posted by --Adam-- View Post
Went fishing at Sturgeon Lake for my first time on Father's Day Weekend. Started out as a good trip, pulled into the bighorn campsite late friday night at young's point. Right after we got the camper backed into place, we drove to the registration box and paid for our 2 night (little did we know there was a box even closer to us, but it was dark so we paid at the one down a few stalls). The next morning, we set out in the boat to catch me my first walleye, with only 1 bite that morning i never ended up catching one (shouldve been on the water earlier). So in the afternoon i decided i would like to try again. It was pretty windy and raining during this time, so my buddy decided he wouldnt fish, he will just steer the boat since we will be doing some moving around in the wind. As we come to the boat launch with me still not catching my first walleye, an officer approaches us after we pulled the boat out of the water, he asks for our fishing licences, i showed him mine, while my buddy didnt have his on him since at camp he decided he wasnt going to fish this time, so he tells the officer he wasnt fishing but he does have a fishing licence at camp, that he would take with him when he does plan on fishing this evening. The officer let us go but ran the plates on the truck due to my buddy not providing a fishing licence?..Later that evening we set out again, and the fishing was great!, caught a couple nice walleye and a bunch of smaller ones that were released back, and even a small pike. At camp later that night, around midnight, the battery went dead on the camper while we were having a late night meal, so i went to start the generator for 10min just to switch out a battery (i know, no generators past 11pm, ill take the blame for that, even though its just 10 mins.) Anyways, i just started the generator and walked into the camper to put on a coat (literally 2 mins of generator being running), and walk out to see 2 officers standing there, warning me about the generator, so i turned it off, no problem and changed out the battery quickly in the dark....now the officers ask for my buddys fishing licence again!, my buddy refused to show them since it is 12am and he is not fishing, and wasnt fishing in the first place when he wanted to see it. The more experienced officer told the other officer that my buddy was correct and he shouldnt have asked for it, now the officer asked for registration/insurance for my buddys truck and his ID, then left for about 30mins which we waited for him to come back, there were some minor complications with the paperwork (not my deal, since its my buddys truck, so im not complaining there). So they finally leave, and we went to bed. The next day we packed up camp and started to head home, barely getting out to the highway when the same officer calls my buddys cellphone!, and asks where we are..which he replied with "leaving the campsite". The officer said we need to pay before we leave and we will be charged now. My buddy told him we paid for both nights and told him where the money was.(the officer checked the closest box to us but not both boxes in the small campsite). So, the officers reply was "oh..you shouldnt have paid in that box." (Where is the line in the campsite saying who pays at which box???its all one campsite!!). He then continues to say "if your lying to me, i will charge both of you.", In return my buddy told him "before calling us criminals, check the box, the money is there..". He also told the officer that we didnt appreciate the way we were treated at this campsite, and that we felt as if we were being watched more because of our age and looks (mid 20's). We did not break 1 law regarding fishing or camping the entire weekend(besides the generator thing, my bad) and were still hounded and considered criminals. I had the same voicemail on my house phone when i got home, saying we should have paid and that we will be charged. I phoned back and ensured the money was put in and that i wasnt being charged, and i also said i didnt appreciate the experience i had with that particular officer.

All said and done, i did get to catch my first walleye!, but as for my first experience at sturgeon lake, not impressed with the experience we had with that officer.

What are your thoughts on this?
sometimes these guys have ego's a mile long. Next time take notes and let the officer know you will be filing a complaint against him or her.
__________________
Father Father... there is a big mouse father
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 06-25-2012, 01:41 PM
Guitarplayingfish's Avatar
Guitarplayingfish Guitarplayingfish is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: FISHING!
Posts: 1,892
Default

I have a few things to say about this.

From what I can gather you were both in the wrong
1. Buddy not having his license when out (should always carry it on your body as I have found out the hard way)
2. Starting the generator too late

The COs were not completely right either
1. treating you guys like criminals right from the start (the way you tell it)
2. Asking for your fishing license at 12 midnight when your clearly not fishing (unless you were earlier and said you would show him later, in which case it would be a good reflection on the CO for doing that for you instead of just ticketing you for not carrying)

Just like in any industry in the world there are good and bad people... People who will be nice and welcoming... and people who will be miserable and treat you like criminals right off the bat.

I have ran into some really brutal CO in the past that made me questionable about our Enforcement officers.

This being said, the last year I have run into many really good guys who are COs and doing their job to the best of their ability.. this has brought back my confidence in our system. There are good people out there who want to protect our fisheries as much as us environmentalists.. I think Officer experience has something to do with it too.. The jerks I have met have been freshly out of school CO's who are power hungry. The nice ones are typically (but not always) guys who have been on the job for a few years and understand how things work.

It's like anything... There will be good and bad. Just follow regulation and treat them with the respect they deserve and you shouldn't have a problem..
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 06-25-2012, 02:22 PM
canadiantdi's Avatar
canadiantdi canadiantdi is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Location: On top of sphagetti
Posts: 3,565
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by topgun2269 View Post
sometimes these guys have ego's a mile long. Next time take notes and let the officer know you will be filing a complaint against him or her.
I wouldn't ever tell them you are going to file a complaint. He will definitely take notes and make sure he remembers every little detail, and he'll prep his supervisor for your call..
__________________
A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasure. From that moment on the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most money from the public treasury, with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy followed by a dictatorship.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 06-25-2012, 02:55 PM
DoUCWhatIC DoUCWhatIC is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 128
Default

This incident occurred within a Provincial Park. Concervations Officer's (COs)patrol Parks. This has absolutely nothing to do with Fish & Wildlife! There was no Game Warden involvement at all. Common misconception and understandable!
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 06-25-2012, 02:57 PM
Guitarplayingfish's Avatar
Guitarplayingfish Guitarplayingfish is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: FISHING!
Posts: 1,892
Default

Hmm.

This being the case, you really shouldn't have ran your generator... That probably caused the biggest problem. Quiet hours after 10.. Hence why I never camp at campgrounds (not that I'm a partyer, but it's nice to have the option to play music and whatnot)
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 06-25-2012, 03:25 PM
JohninAB's Avatar
JohninAB JohninAB is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: West Central Alberta
Posts: 5,987
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoUCWhatIC View Post
This incident occurred within a Provincial Park. Concervations Officer's (COs)patrol Parks. This has absolutely nothing to do with Fish & Wildlife! There was no Game Warden involvement at all. Common misconception and understandable!
Doing the Wiser's clap here.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 06-25-2012, 03:38 PM
ReconWilly's Avatar
ReconWilly ReconWilly is offline
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 858
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DoUCWhatIC View Post
This incident occurred within a Provincial Park. Concervations Officer's (COs)patrol Parks. This has absolutely nothing to do with Fish & Wildlife! There was no Game Warden involvement at all. Common misconception and understandable!
Are you saying COs have nothing to do with fish and wildlife?

What the hell is a game warden?

Are you the other guilty party who provoked the incident because you know your rights?
__________________
Respect the resources or kindly choose not to use them.
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 06-25-2012, 03:41 PM
Guitarplayingfish's Avatar
Guitarplayingfish Guitarplayingfish is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: FISHING!
Posts: 1,892
Default

Last time I was at a provincial park (fishing and staying 1 night) The CO was the one who looked after the campsite... Got money, sold firewood, etc... problem was he was rarely around. Too busy patrolling I guess.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 06-25-2012, 05:01 PM
DoUCWhatIC DoUCWhatIC is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 128
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReconWilly View Post
Are you saying COs have nothing to do with fish and wildlife?

What the hell is a game warden?

Are you the other guilty party who provoked the incident because you know your rights?
That is exactly what I am saying. Up until very recently COs and F&W weren't even in the same government department. COs work in Parks, F&W work in the rest of the Province.

Sorry, Game Wardens are the common term for F&W. Probably shouldn't have used that term, likely added to the confusion.

Nope, I wasn't there. I think you missed my point. I made the comment because some were using COs and F&W to mean the same thing. They are not the same, thats all!
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 06-25-2012, 05:07 PM
Okotokian's Avatar
Okotokian Okotokian is offline
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Uh, guess? :)
Posts: 26,554
Default

You're young guys who got bullied. They took three or four runs at you. I'd go up the chain of command.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 06-25-2012, 06:08 PM
pikergolf's Avatar
pikergolf pikergolf is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 6,785
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Okotokian View Post
You're young guys who got bullied. They took three or four runs at you. I'd go up the chain of command.
Meh, genny at midnight, probably got phoned in, plus managed to switch out battery in the dark, why not do that in the first place instead of waking people up? No money in box, I would have sorted that out before I left, had two opportunities, I'd be interested in the other side of this story.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 06-25-2012, 06:40 PM
densa44 densa44 is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: East of Stettler
Posts: 5,878
Default The secret of life!

It is ...."getting the other guy to agree with you".

Not to win arguments, cast suspicion on yourselves, annoy other campers, I'm sure you get the idea.

I'll bet you can think of ways that this meeting could have gone better for all concerned, things that you both could have done and said.

Better luck next time with authority figures.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 10:29 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.