12 Gauge Slugs for Bear Defense? Here's an ammo review you'll want to watch!

[Brobee]

Happy New Year Everyone!

Furthering my ongoing YouTube series of 12 gauge shotgun ammo testing, I just finished editing my first gelatin review of a rifled slug: Winchester's SuperX Hollow Point Rifled Slug.

http://youtu.be/FKge3FF0Hx4

What made me start with this particular slug is a close range encounter I had with a large black bear where I put 3 of these slugs (with perfect placement) into his front shoulder he was turning towards me, but after gutting and skinning him I was shocked to find that only one of them had made it into the vitals, and just barely.

Subsequently I did the big science project on shotgun slugs and definitely found some better performers, and now that I've got my YouTube channel up and running I'm re-doing a bunch of these tests for the camera so that others might also benefit. This video's the first one, and I've got another three slug reviews I'm still working on getting edited, so stay tuned!

Thanks for watching and your feedback!

Cheers,

Brobee

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

That's a fine video Brobee.

I do not believe that any informed individual would expect the "rifling" on a Foster (aka rifled) slug to impart spin and I am sure all slug afficionados know that design element was incorporated to allow the slug to swage easily through any size of barrel constriction (choke). It was a tad surprising that you did not outright dispel such an urban (perhaps rural is more apropo) myth in your video.

The Winchester Super - X slug performed comparably in your video to what the same slug has done in myriad tests by others. It does do exactly what I suspect it would/ how I know it to perform. As all Foster Slugs are known to me to have been designed for Deer and comparably light targets (as well as for amusement purposes ie target shooting and plinking practice) these results are well within their designed performance parameters as well as my personal expectations of and experiences with most any given Foster Slug made of pure/very soft lead.

That said, I personally am more inclined to use Winchester Super - X for plinking or targets as they are probably the worst performing and lowest quality of the most widely known Foster Slug producers (ie Federal, Remington and Winchester). Of course I may well change my tune if they were to be the most accurate for myself in a particular gun. This is not only how I feel about their slugs, it is my opinion of all of what could well be referred to as Winchester's base/economy shotgun shells. At least these slugs seem to work and cycle better for everyone whom uses them than does the Winchester xpert or universal offerings!

While I am not a member of youtube and have no desire to sign up for an account there (hence can not subscribe) at this time I will be sure to keep an eye out for your future videos in the series. It is most intriguing how you mentioned a couple of slugs you would trust for use on larger/heavier built animals than deer.

When it comes to Factory/major brand slug ammunition for smooth bore barrels (or rifled barrels for that matter; with the possible exception of Hevi-Shot Sabot slugs, a product I have yet to try as of this writing) that have a somewhat reasonable level of availability (defined as being purchase-able routinely without provoking a feeling of having discovered rocking horse feces) here in Canada and are typically much better when it comes to penetration and lack of deformation; I know only of Challenger Munitions Slugs, a Brenneke type design. All others are near impossible to source on the Canadian Market in my current experience or are in th Foster Slug/extremely soft lead category.

Thank you, looking forward to more slug testing Sir!

[winger7mm]

Not very often you get to see the actual performance of what your shooting thats for sure! Looking forward to more actual tests

[Horn Stretcher]

Nice work... you have put a lot of time and effort into this, looking forward to your next results.

[Whiskey Wish]

Thanks for posting this information Brobee, much appreciated. Also for taking the time and effort to make the video. I hope you will keep us informed here on the A/O website as you release more videos.
Regards,
Dave.

[chidders]

Excellent video and thanks for sharing. Can't wait to see more on the Slugs so I am signed up!

[petew]

It would be interesting to see how a "Round ball" 12 ga would do.

[Ruger1022]

Thank You for your time,..great videos!!

Time to take the ole SuperX Hollow Point out of the back pack and into the plinker box.

[normanrd]

Originally Posted by petew

It would be interesting to see how a "Round ball" 12 ga would do.

Ya, like 00 buck shot. About 7 or 8 34(?) cal round balls in a 2 3/4" Shell. Would be interesting to see on ballistic gel at that range.

[adaras]

Outstanding video!!! Thanks!

[Alaska]

We use Breneke classics Slugs in 1 1/8 Oz in 2 3/4" Mag for Bears here in AK at my work.

from Polar Bears to Grizzly it works great.........

No Buckshot for Bears.......

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

Originally Posted by Alaska

We use Breneke classics Slugs in 1 1/8 Oz in 2 3/4" Mag for Bears here in AK at my work.

from Polar Bears to Grizzly it works great.........

No Buckshot for Bears.......

If I ever find Brenneke (either Brenneke USA or the RWS/Rottweil German ones) here in Canada it surely makes me feel like I just discovered a big pile of hen's teeth, to be sure Sir! That said, I have heard of them being in stock on the east coast and up in Yukon.
Importing ammunition from the US to Canada is possible, yet not easy nor cheap to do legally. This is due to USA export law, not something to do with the Canadian Government (for once).

Challenger Munitions slugs are Canadian made and quite comarable to the Brenneke Classic. If I recall correctly, when I was living in major BEAUTIFUL Black Bear and big Griz country in British Columbia there were at least a couple of DLP (as they are called in Alaska - Defense of Life and Property) shootings of Bear with the Challengers and they dropped 'em and stopped 'em nice and smooth... A DRT DLP, Challenger style. Of course this is conjecture a wee bit as I personally did not shoot these Bears nor see them shot. Yet that was the word in the woods and around town.

Perhaps Brobee has tests of these slugs coming up sometime soon?

[Whiskey Wish]

I have been giving Brobee's video some thought over the last few days. While I really appreciate the video and the time and effort it took to make I do have some questions.

If the slug made it 18" (is that correct?) into the Gel would that not mean that ALL of the bullets energy was dissipated into the target? That is a good thing...yes?...no?

By expanding as large as it did would that not create a larger wound channel? Again, is that not a good thing?

My thinking being if the bullet travelled through and through then that would mean energy is being "lost" out the far side of the target.

I have never killed or been around a grizzly bear up close enough to actually measure but I have been around black bears. 18" of penetration is pretty much through and through on most of the black bears I have been around. Bone is a whole different story of course.

Now to be clear here! I am not intending this to criticize or belittle Brobee's work. I think his efforts are great and I am really looking forward to his next postings. I am simply asking questions and hoping for discussion. I am more than willing to accept that my viewpoint could be wrong if someone can explain WHY?

One other thing, I think it would be a good comparative experiment to shoot a couple of rifle calibers at the same Gel and the same distance. Maybe a .308 and a 300 win mag?

Also, if there is significant $$$ involved in doing these experiments Brobee, just PM me and I would be glad to contribute to the project.
Regards,
Dave.

[dgitz]

Originally Posted by Whiskey Wish

I have been giving Brobee's video some thought over the last few days. While I really appreciate the video and the time and effort it took to make I do have some questions.

If the slug made it 18" (is that correct?) into the Gel would that not mean that ALL of the bullets energy was dissipated into the target? That is a good thing...yes?...no?

By expanding as large as it did would that not create a larger wound channel? Again, is that not a good thing?

My thinking being if the bullet travelled through and through then that would mean energy is being "lost" out the far side of the target.

I have never killed or been around a grizzly bear up close enough to actually measure but I have been around black bears. 18" of penetration is pretty much through and through on most of the black bears I have been around. Bone is a whole different story of course.

Now to be clear here! I am not intending this to criticize or belittle Brobee's work. I think his efforts are great and I am really looking forward to his next postings. I am simply asking questions and hoping for discussion. I am more than willing to accept that my viewpoint could be wrong if someone can explain WHY?

One other thing, I think it would be a good comparative experiment to shoot a couple of rifle calibers at the same Gel and the same distance. Maybe a .308 and a 300 win mag?

Also, if there is significant $$$ involved in doing these experiments Brobee, just PM me and I would be glad to contribute to the project.
Regards,
Dave.

You are correct in saying that you would want to dissipate as much energy as possible into the target however for dangerous game the key is to dissipate it in the right location, which is good and deep in the boiler room.

Although 18" seems like a lot in 10% OJ you have to relate that to what you're shooting and account for bones and such. On a human with thin skin and soft bones, devastating. However, on a bear with thick skin and big bones and deeper vitals, maybe not so much.

In my opinion it would be better to have a pass through that hit a bunch of vitals on its way through than something that hit a rib and stopped or diverted.

[madluk18]

Hey,

Awesome video!!

I was wondering how you made the ballistic gel, I'm looking to test the effectiveness of some of the bullets I shoot. If you could share your recipe and technique that would be great!!

Thanks!

[Whiskey Wish]

Originally Posted by dgitz

You are correct in saying that you would want to dissipate as much energy as possible into the target however for dangerous game the key is to dissipate it in the right location, which is good and deep in the boiler room.


Although 18" seems like a lot in 10% OJ you have to relate that to what you're shooting and account for bones and such. On a human with thin skin and soft bones, devastating. However, on a bear with thick skin and big bones and deeper vitals, maybe not so much.

In my opinion it would be better to have a pass through that hit a bunch of vitals on its way through than something that hit a rib and stopped or diverted.

dgitz,
So if I understand you correctly the 10% ballistic gel is NOT comparative to a bears muscle tissue etc.? The same bullet that made it 18" in ballistic gel would have only made it "X" inches through a bear? I am leaving bone out of this comparison at this point for clarity.

You are correct saying that the key is dissipating the energy in the right part of the body but that is the job of the nut behind the trigger not the bullet imho.

I have to admit in my mind I would have accepted that a 12 gauge slug at 7 yards (Brobee's test distance) would penetrate and break a bears front shoulder. Not stating this as a fact by any means, just saying that I would have accepted it if someone told me.

As far as penetration I guess "ideal" penetration would be to have the projectile end up just under the skin on the far side. That way everything in it's path would have been penetrated and damaged and all the energy would have been dissipated within the body. Any energy that drives the projectile out of the hide and beyond is basically wasted.

The variable would be what the projectile hits on it's way through, muscle, organs, bone, cartilage, fluids. At that point I would guess that here is where "harder, faster, larger" becomes the Holy Grail of bullets....??

Thinking out loud...I wonder if some kind of bone could be inserted in ballistic gel?

Thanks everyone for your insight and opinions. Makes for an interesting discussion!
Regards,
Dave.

[dgitz]

Originally Posted by Whiskey Wish

dgitz,
So if I understand you correctly the 10% ballistic gel is NOT comparative to a bears muscle tissue etc.? The same bullet that made it 18" in ballistic gel would have only made it "X" inches through a bear? I am leaving bone out of this comparison at this point for clarity.

You are correct saying that the key is dissipating the energy in the right part of the body but that is the job of the nut behind the trigger not the bullet imho.

I have to admit in my mind I would have accepted that a 12 gauge slug at 7 yards (Brobee's test distance) would penetrate and break a bears front shoulder. Not stating this as a fact by any means, just saying that I would have accepted it if someone told me.

As far as penetration I guess "ideal" penetration would be to have the projectile end up just under the skin on the far side. That way everything in it's path would have been penetrated and damaged and all the energy would have been dissipated within the body. Any energy that drives the projectile out of the hide and beyond is basically wasted.

The variable would be what the projectile hits on it's way through, muscle, organs, bone, cartilage, fluids. At that point I would guess that here is where "harder, faster, larger" becomes the Holy Grail of bullets....??

Thinking out loud...I wonder if some kind of bone could be inserted in ballistic gel?

Thanks everyone for your insight and opinions. Makes for an interesting discussion!
Regards,
Dave.

Ya 10% ballistics gel is what the IWBA and FBI use as a human tissue simulant. I would bet a bears fur and skin and muscle would offer more resistance than a humans (I would say the fur would probably make the most difference). I know FBI requires between 12" to 18" inches for the ammo their agents carry.
I agree that its the job of the shooter but I know I haven't yet mastered placing a bullet between the ribs of a charging bear while simultaneously s***ing my pants in fear. haha
My opinion on these slugs in particular is that what makes them not appropriate is their construction. They are a hollow slug so they aren't as resistant to fragmentation and deformation as a solid projectile.
My belief is that penetration is paramount if you were ever in that situation. I want a bullet that will go where I tell it too.
Not that I would ever want to shoot a bear. I like bears.
If you want to see some more results of different ammo in ballistics gel check out tnoutdoors on youtube. His whole channel is devoted to it and he's good. I bet he's where Brobee got his motivation for his channel.

[Nait Hadya]

Personal experience tells me that you do not want to shoot a bear where the video shows, using foster type slugs.

[Whiskey Wish]

"I agree that its the job of the shooter but I know I haven't yet mastered placing a bullet between the ribs of a charging bear while simultaneously s***ing my pants in fear. haha"

LOL....I hear you loud and clear on that one!

The only time I faced an angry grizzly I was armed with a hatchet and a survey stake. My co-worker was a First Nations fellow who undoubtedly saved my life and those of our other co-workers that day.

I have had plenty of opportunities to shoot black bears, just never the need nor the desire but I wouldn't hesitate if the need arose.

In my lifetime I have talked with two people that have been actually contacted by a grizzly bear. Both of them said if you cannot react and bring your defensive measure into action within 10 to 15 seconds you may as well leave whatever you are carrying at home. One was a defensive attack, the other a predatory attack.

I still like Brobee's video and I value it because by the last video I may have a much better understanding of what ammo I need in my Defender. I confess to having put a lot of faith in those slugs and Double Ought in the past.
Regards,
Dave.

[PoppaW]

Originally Posted by Alaska

We use Breneke classics Slugs in 1 1/8 Oz in 2 3/4" Mag for Bears here in AK at my work.

from Polar Bears to Grizzly it works great.........

No Buckshot for Bears.......

X2

[xxclaro]

Very well done video, once again. I've watched quite a few of yours and they are always good. I'd like to see a few more slug tests done, as there are quite a few people carrying shotguns expressly for bear defense. I carry the Challenger slugs, and I think they are decent, but seeing an actual test of them would help in deciding if they are actually a good choice.

Have you ever considered adding a barrier in front of the gel? It might be interesting to see how the various slugs performed after encountering "bone-like" material, as I suspect the soft Fosters will suffer quite a bit.

[Gonehuntin']

That video was thought provoking for sure.I can't help but wonder about the performance of the Lyman 525 gr.Sabot slugs I load...and wonder if a harder alloy like wheelweights would be better than pure lead for penetration where heavy bone is possible.I'd be happy to supply some samples for Brobee to try in his testing, though I realize they are obviously not available in factory loads, the mold is commonly available here.I could also throw in some of the popular Lee 1 oz variety...

[Brobee]

Here's the first follow up video in my series of slug reviews;

Federal's Premium TruBall Deep Penetrator 1oz 12ga Rifled Slug.

http://youtu.be/zAq5jNBrRbw

Time to get to work on my next episode: the famous BRENNEKE!

Thanks for all the feedback, and thanks for watching.

Cheers,

Brobee

[eltorro]

What kind of Brenneke do you have?

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

Thank you for the video on Federal's TruBall Deep Penetrator slug! Most enjoyable programming.

I have been keeping an eye out for these slugs and am looking forward to picking some up for consideration for potential use on larger than Deer sized Game. I've got some testing planned for Federal's regular TruBall slug (currently 3", may add some 2 3/4") and am looking forward to trying them out for general slug fun and Deer Hunting purposes. Likewise looking forward to your upcoming Brenneke slug tests.

As per the Deep Penetrator - I am certain it is the flat meplat/slug design elements and harder compund that makes the difference, I sincerely doubt that the copper coating does much if anything at all. I feel the same way about copper coated shot likewise. Nickel makes a difference, not copper. In fact there is not any mention made even by the manufacturer on the copper being beneficial. Here is the write up on these slugs from Federal's website -

"When you're hunting animals with tough hide and bone like bear or hogs you need a robust, reliable slug to get the job done. When Federal Premium® set out to make the smoothbore slug more effective for the standard slug slinger, the Vital-Shok™ Slug TruBall® system was created. We’ve reinvented, redefined slug technology and that means you can upgrade without changing barrels. For 2010, we add a new 12-gauge TruBall Deep Penetrator slug. This is much harder (higher antimony) lead than the traditional TruBall and features a more distinct shoulder for extra toughness. They are designed for an impressive 18-20 inches of penetration."


Presumably the penetration qouted by Federal is suggested as being a general idea of what to expect at some range, as would be associated with a Hunting scenario. This product is a fine slug, hope it is accurate in my gun as it would be a fine thing to use for certain applications for me... Always good to have options and alternatives that all work well. All the best, fine work once more Sir!

[cody c]

Originally Posted by adaras

Outstanding video!!! Thanks!

Ya thanks for posting that, Im surprised by the results and keen to hear what you find as a premium grizzly stopper round

[Brobee]

Hello Everyone!

After wrestling pretty much all day with my iMac and it's "Glorious" Maverick upgrade (NASTY!), I finally finished editing and uploading the Brenneke 12 Gauge Slug review:

http://youtu.be/EtyPqHyhgJo

Thanks so much for all your feedback...I'll source some of those Canadian made slugs and see what I can do about testing them once the 4 feet of snow is gone from my rural range.

Cheers, and thanks for watching!

Brobee

[1899b]

Originally Posted by Brobee

Hello Everyone!

After wrestling pretty much all day with my iMac and it's "Glorious" Maverick upgrade (NASTY!), I finally finished editing and uploading the Brenneke 12 Gauge Slug review:

http://youtu.be/EtyPqHyhgJo

Thanks so much for all your feedback...I'll source some of those Canadian made slugs and see what I can do about testing them once the 4 feet of snow is gone from my rural range.

Cheers, and thanks for watching!

Brobee

Awesome. Thank you for your tests very helpful.

[Pikes"R"us]

Great videos! Thanks for putting them together! Definitely subscribed!

["No Choke"Lord Walsingham]

Excellent, we have another enjoyable episode from you here Brobee! Seems to have summed things up well for the product. I'd say that particular variety of Brenneke did the trick and lived up to its reputation for you.

Last time I checked, Challenger Munitions Slugs were available online via Cabela's Canada. Just in case you needed a hint on where you may be able to pick some up.

I noticed a commentator on your Youtube channel mentioned the Score/Prairie Shot slugs out of Carberry, Manitoba. From what I can see this comapany appears to use components from Ballistic Products, fine components to be sure! I have no experience with these slugs as of yet but they are interesting and would be worth a try. In fact I intend to obtain some of said slugs sooner or later... These slugs are available from Alberta Outdoorsmen Forum Site Sponsor ammosupply.ca. They sell online with delivery to the customer and also offer order pick-up in Calgary!

Now normally I would not bother to read a Youtube comment as generally such things are representative of the worst humanity has to offer online and are among the most repugnant to be found anywhere. Fortunately I have not seen such gross negativity on your channel.

All the best Sir Brobee, hopefully this shall not be the last we hear from you here on AO Forum nor see from your Channel. By the looks of things, God willing you shall go forward to have some more fun! As shall we all, I sincerely do hope.