Rangers like new tikka

[NewAlbertan]

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/topstories/...apon-1.3143122

Interesting read on the new ranger rifle

[takeiteasybird]

" The preliminary cost estimate for the replacement project is $28 million or $4,000 per rifle, he said. That cost includes everything from development and testing to additional equipment, including hard and soft cases for the weapons and a two-year supply — almost two million rounds — of ammunition. "

"Rangers need their weapons for self-defence against large predators and to live off the land, he said, so a model of a polar bear was created and used as part of the testing."

That's not cheap for Tikka but at least we know it works as it was tested on a model polar bear!

[coreya3212]

Four grand a rifle? What am I missing?

[tikka250]

Originally Posted by coreya3212

Four grand a rifle? What am I missing?

have to remember they are given a large pelican case a good soft case and the initial purchase included 2 years supply of ammunition (2million rounds). my uneducated guess is that the rifle itself probably cost the same as a high end sako.

[Hat in the Cat]

There is also the bit about buying the rights.

It would be like telling Michael Jackson he was stupid to pay all the money to buy the rights to the Beetles when he could have bought the box set for $60

The proprietary rights are huge and allow customization, modification, upgrades and future production or sales of the weapon. Whose to say.

[fish_e_o]

i'm glad they like them as they should

it's about time we got it right

[takeiteasybird]

Originally Posted by fish_e_o

i'm glad they like them as they should

it's about time we got it right

I agree, looks like a solid rifle nonetheless.

It would be nice if they would become available to the public (at a lower cost of course)

[teberle]

Am I just ignorant, or is a 308 a little underpowered for polar bear defense? That aside, looks like a sweet gun.

[fish_e_o]

Originally Posted by teberle

Am I just ignorant, or is a 308 a little underpowered for polar bear defense? That aside, looks like a sweet gun.

if i had a loaded 308 in my hands and and an unloaded 375h&h at my feet i'd use the 308.

the best bear defense gun is the one in your hands.

[Hat in the Cat]

I don't think the rangers put themselves in the situation where a polar bear sneaks up on them in the arctic either. These are people that live the lifestyle on a daily basis and are keenly aware of their environment and how different animals behave.

A .308 is more than enough seeing as the .303 has been the predecessor for 50 years with no issues.

I guess I'm trying to point out that there is a difference in a charging, adrenaline riddled grizz in the thick bush and a polar bear up north.

[bang_on_sk]

Originally Posted by teberle

Am I just ignorant, or is a 308 a little underpowered for polar bear defense? That aside, looks like a sweet gun.

Likely better than the .303 they were using until recently. Also, you have to keep in mind that's not its primary use, and that shooting polar bears is not an everyday event in the life of a ranger.

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by takeiteasybird

I agree, looks like a solid rifle nonetheless.

It would be nice if they would become available to the public (at a lower cost of course)

Guess I'm the other way, would have been cheaper and more cost efficient to pick something currently available to the General Public, but of course the whole process revolves around research and studies. The actual hardware is secondary.

Grizz

[elkdump]

Originally Posted by teberle

Am I just ignorant, or is a 308 a little underpowered for polar bear defense? That aside, looks like a sweet gun.

lol, the Inuit have been killing polar bears with .22 Hornets and .223 Rem calibers since they advanced from killing polar bears with spears,,

So a .308 Win will be about 10x more deadly, in the hands of a marksman

[gitrdun]

Wouldn't be my 1st choice, .308 in a long action....seriously?

[north american hunter]

Originally Posted by gitrdun

Wouldn't be my 1st choice, .308 in a long action....seriously?

Thats what you get for using a tikka

[catnthehat]

The design, the intended uses, and the money has all been explained in this thread.
http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showt...=rifle+Rangers
The Rangers that had a hand in the development like them, and that is all that counts as far as they are concerned.
Cat

[coreya3212]

Originally Posted by tikka250

have to remember they are given a large pelican case a good soft case and the initial purchase included 2 years supply of ammunition (2million rounds). my uneducated guess is that the rifle itself probably cost the same as a high end sako.

6300 rifles at 4K includes pelican case, ( 3-400 bucks?) , soft case (100 bucks ?) and 320 rounds per rifle at even a buck a round?. is about 900 bucks after the rifle. so these are 3100 dollar rifles maybe. I know my numbers are soft , but seriously, I don't see the value here. Could have walked into Bass pro and gotten Sako A7's and cut the bill in half..... just saying this is a waste of money. The rangers deserve this equipment, no question, and probly should have had it a lot sooner..... but whoever was in charge of this RFP got some sort of kickback.....

PS- now I am gonna go read cats thread that he posted a link to above, I will be back to eat my words if it can be made sense of to me.

[teberle]

Originally Posted by elkdump

lol, the Inuit have been killing polar bears with .22 Hornets and .223 Rem calibers since they advanced from killing polar bears with spears,,

So a .308 Win will be about 10x more deadly, in the hands of a marksman

Ok, good point lol. Still, I would have thought even a 30-06 would be a little more appropriate, and no more expensive. I wonder what led them to choose the caliber they did.

[coreya3212]

I am gonna paste this post from cats thread. I don't know if I am ready to eat any words, btu its a good post on the subject. In addition, it sounds like it was thought it was gonna be 6700 a rifle, so 4000 must be the sale price...

Originally Posted by Morpheus32

I don't think some of you understand what is included in the total procurement price. It is not just a rifle and the case. It includes spare parts, tooling for the weapons techs to repair, but most of all it will include the technical specifications which allow DND to "own" the design. It will also likely include at least one life cycle management run, that is the rebuild and refit ofthe rifles at a specific point in the weapons life. That is normally included in the costing of the rifle. I can guarantee that the replacement cost of the rifle itself is not $6K but more likely in the price range we would expect. The same goes for just about everything the military buys, it is not a one off cost but rather the life cycle (10, 20 or 30 years) of service. When we purchased the C7 series of rifles, they included rebuilds as part of the life cycle, the same for the radios we use.

So make sure you understand what the costs truly are before you go off half cocked. Buying a rifle for $900 then not being able to repair it makes no sense to the military. Weapons have life cycles measured in decades.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by teberle

Ok, good point lol. Still, I would have thought even a 30-06 would be a little more appropriate, and no more expensive. I wonder what led them to choose the caliber they did.

The 3006b is totally inappropriate, because it is not a Canadian Forces round.
The Rangers use issue ball ammo for matches and for qualifying , and soft nosed ammo for regular duty .
Cat

[qwert]

Originally Posted by teberle

Ok, good point lol. Still, I would have thought even a 30-06 would be a little more appropriate, and no more expensive. I wonder what led them to choose the caliber they did.

There are many sound operational, and more importantly logistical, reasons that all NATO countries converted from 30-06 (& 303BR) to 7.62x51. The most important are weight and standardization of supply logistics, but even LR shooters have largely abandoned the heavier recoiling 30-06 in favor of the lighter and more inherently accurate 308W. If longer range or higher terminal energy are required then 300WM or 338LM or 50BMG are all superior to 30-06, and the 300WM and 338LM systems are not much heavier.

The 30-06 remains a fine hunting/game cartridge for users who seldom carry more than 10 rounds or fire more than 2 rounds in a day of hunting.

[marxman]

Of course its a 308 what else would it be. Good choice except it should have been made by sako the procurement is pure pork.

[CaberTosser]

If one accounts for the fact that Colt Canada had to set up the tooling to produce these then that explains a lot about the price, as those costs aren't spread among a greater number of firearms. Though the ability to make these particular rifles for ourselves might not really have much of a wartime benefit.... I think that particular requirement could have been tossed for this purchase for the sake of efficiency & cost savings. By having some common sense injected into procurement the CF could be far better equipped for the same $$. We could simply save money, buy greater quantities or get other needed equipment too.

[greylynx]

Can Ranger's sell their guns to a third party like ol greylynx?

Or to some of my full treaty cousins?

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by greylynx

Can Ranger's sell their guns to a third party like ol greylynx?

Or to some of my full treaty cousins?

NOPE!
Cat

[Matt L.]

Originally Posted by greylynx

Can Ranger's sell their guns to a third party like ol greylynx?

Or to some of my full treaty cousins?

Why not just buy the civvie version?

[averagejoe]

RE the prices. They stated that the cost also includes all of the R&D and testing costs as well. So it is 28 million for the entire project, not just some guns and ammo.

That will reduce the actual overall price of each kit to less than the $4000 quoted.

[Eagle Trapper]

These rifles are basically tikka ctr's, opt the barrel and stock which are available to the public as of 2014, offered in. 260 and. 308. If you find some for sale let me know

[Dick284]

I'm friends with one fellow who is a Ranger up in Nunavit.
He likes the design, but wishes it was chosen in 5.56!
He likes hunting caribou, polar bear, and the like with stuff as small as 17HMR, stuff like the 7.62x51 ruins too much meat, and ruins the hide.

You have to remember that every once of edible meat, and if the hide brings top dollar it's a bonus, especially when everything comes by air freight, and costs umpteen times what it does down here.
These people know how to hunt, and aren't on their 7 day vacation, hunting with a tag that took 5 years to draw. If the shot isn't perfect, it's passed over till a perfect shot is presented.

None the less he's happy to be getting rid of his .303.

[Matt L.]

Originally Posted by averagejoe

RE the prices. They stated that the cost also includes all of the R&D and testing costs as well. So it is 28 million for the entire project, not just some guns and ammo.

That will reduce the actual overall price of each kit to less than the $4000 quoted.

Hey, somebody else finally noticed that!