Canada’s Outdoor Outfitters Wholesale Sports

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Old 03-03-2016, 09:10 AM
fish_e_o fish_e_o is offline
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Default sheep poachers fined

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In Alberta, outfitters and their guides are only permitted to hunt with their clients in Wildlife Management Units (WMUs) where they have an allocation. An “allocation” describes the licence opportunities that are available to outfitters and guides, which they use to provide contracted guiding services to hunters from outside of Alberta. The amount of allocations available can vary from WMU to WMU and is limited to ensure that any hunting is done sustainably.
In late January, a guide and his client pleaded guilty to offences related to shooting a bighorn ram in an area they did not have an allocation for. The ram, which was not of legal size to be hunted, was then covered in rocks and abandoned.
The guide, Logan Hunt, attended Rocky Mountain House Provincial Court and pleaded guilty to three counts under the Wildlife Act: hunting without a licence, unlawful possession of wildlife and abandoning the flesh of big game. He received fines totalling $25,000 and received a judicial order prohibiting him from hunting and guiding/outfitting for a period of one year. The judicial order also places restrictions on his ability to possess firearms.
Bruce Morgan, the client, also pleaded guilty to two counts under the Wildlife Act: unlawful possession of wildlife and abandoning the flesh of big game. Bruce Morgan received fines totalling $20,000 and received a recreational hunting licence suspension for a period of one year.
During their investigation, Fish and Wildlife Officers took a helicopter up to the location of the abandoned ram. The second picture shows the ram covered in rocks.
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Old 03-03-2016, 09:13 AM
Luckwell Luckwell is offline
 
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I hate his story, makes me sick. What a black eye for everyone.
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Old 03-03-2016, 09:14 AM
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The two of them should never be able to hunt again that is BS one year no hunting
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Old 03-03-2016, 09:18 AM
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I would bet this is not the first time the outfitter has done this looks like he knows how to hide stuff in the rocks
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Old 03-03-2016, 09:18 AM
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Old news. Repost. I think the kid learned his lesson. The hunter is a repeat offender. They need to go after the outfitter as well. He's the one who profited the most from this crime.
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Old 03-03-2016, 09:21 AM
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I would bet this is not the first time the outfitter has done this looks like he knows how to hide stuff in the rocks
The outfitter wasn't there when the guide and hunter tried to conceal the kill.
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Old 03-03-2016, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by LKILR View Post
The outfitter wasn't there when the guide and hunter tried to conceal the kill.
the guide works for the outfitter right you should know what your workers are doing
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Old 03-03-2016, 09:24 AM
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Old news. Repost. I think the kid learned his lesson. The hunter is a repeat offender. They need to go after the outfitter as well. He's the one who profited the most from this crime.
oops i hadn't seen it here. i figured it was new because f&w just posted the pictures today.

it was 100% intentional disregard for our laws. if they shot an under size ram oops it happens every year, it would have been an honest or unintentional mistake. but they tried to cover it up. he should never guide again.
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Old 03-03-2016, 09:25 AM
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the guide works for the outfitter right you should know what your workers are doing
I agree. But I know the outfitter did not conceal the ram. But he should accept responsibility for his guides actions.
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Old 03-03-2016, 09:26 AM
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I agree. But I know the outfitter did not conceal the ram. But he should accept responsibility for his guides actions.
in every other business you have to.
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Old 03-03-2016, 09:28 AM
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oops i hadn't seen it here. i figured it was new because f&w just posted the pictures today.

it was 100% intentional disregard for our laws. if they shot an under size ram oops it happens every year, it would have been an honest or unintentional mistake. but they tried to cover it up. he should never guide again.
Did you ever make a mistake when you where young and dumb? Sometime people learn from there actions. If we ban him for life from hunting he can't really redeem himself as a person. I think $25k fine for a young family man is sufficient.
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Old 03-03-2016, 09:45 AM
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he's not a young guy he's no fresh into the world hopped up on testosterone child he's a 30 something and he has two children hopefully he has learned how to be responsible but it doesn't look like it.
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Old 03-03-2016, 09:51 AM
Luckwell Luckwell is offline
 
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Sorry to poke the bear her but I gotta ask.

Where did this incident take place? And who was the outfitting company?
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Old 03-03-2016, 09:54 AM
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I just think a lifetime ban on a first time offender is extreme. Do we suspend driver licenses for a lifetime for first time impaired drivers? Or should we? Or we could believe that an individual can reform? Food for thought I guess
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Old 03-03-2016, 09:57 AM
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in every other business you have to.
Not true. If an employee commits a crime the employer is not necessarily responsible, especially if the employer wasn't aware of the actions of the employee. If an employee goes postal and gets a firearm and starts shooting people, is the employer guilty of murder?
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Old 03-03-2016, 09:58 AM
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I just think a lifetime ban on a first time offender is extreme. Do we suspend driver licenses for a lifetime for first time impaired drivers? Or should we? Or we could believe that an individual can reform? Food for thought I guess
oh he should hunt again but never ever guide. as a professional he is held to a higher standard like police lawyers and doctors. how many of them are given a second chance after they intentionally do something stupid?

it was gross disregard for the laws he wasn't even in the right area in the first place.
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Old 03-03-2016, 10:00 AM
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Not true. If an employee commits a crime the employer is not necessarily responsible, especially if the employer wasn't aware of the actions of the employee. If an employee goes postal and gets a firearm and starts shooting people, is the employer guilty of murder?
not murder no but probably a lot civil lawsuits
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Old 03-03-2016, 10:00 AM
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Terrible example of the human condition. In the end, justice was served. The outfitter did nothing wrong and is not responsible for anything his guide did...........just as you would not be fined for your children's crimes.
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Old 03-03-2016, 10:01 AM
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just as you would not be fined for your children's crimes.
you say that but you are responsible for your children if they are under age
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Old 03-03-2016, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Not true. If an employee commits a crime the employer is not necessarily responsible, especially if the employer wasn't aware of the actions of the employee. If an employee goes postal and gets a firearm and starts shooting people, is the employer guilty of murder?
Look at it this way, say your employed by a contractor as the site manager to build pressure piping for a plant site. Your behind schedule and have to take shortcuts to make sure it is done on time, you decide to not complete a pressure test on a portion of the job which will save you a couple days. This is against code which is a Law. They fire the plant up and a fitting on the portion you decided not to test blows up and injures a worker of the owner. Who do you think gets charged?
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Old 03-03-2016, 10:14 AM
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Terrible example of the human condition. In the end, justice was served. The outfitter did nothing wrong and is not responsible for anything his guide did...........just as you would not be fined for your children's crimes.
The outfitter took the client and guide into the wrong allocation on horseback. So to say he did nothing wrong might not be true.
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Old 03-03-2016, 10:18 AM
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The outfitter took the client and guide into the wrong allocation on horseback. So to say he did nothing wrong might not be true.
oh... i didn't hear that. the guide should have known better for one but that portion is not all on his shoulders at that point
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Old 03-03-2016, 10:19 AM
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Look at it this way, say your employed by a contractor as the site manager to build pressure piping for a plant site. Your behind schedule and have to take shortcuts to make sure it is done on time, you decide to not complete a pressure test on a portion of the job which will save you a couple days. This is against code which is a Law. They fire the plant up and a fitting on the portion you decided not to test blows up and injures a worker of the owner. Who do you think gets charged?
usually not the employee actually. they tend to give breaks to the "little guy"
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Old 03-03-2016, 10:31 AM
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you say that but you are responsible for your children if they are under age
Lets not be ambiguous here. You're trotting out that the outfitter is somehow responsible for a decision that an employee made without the outfitters knowledge. There is no case. If my 15 year old child stole a car (hypothetical), I should go to jail or pay a fine? After the upstanding upbringing and rule of law that he was raised up to respect? All of this is hypothetical as I have no 15 year old son. But you would say that I am responsible.........NOT
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Old 03-03-2016, 10:44 AM
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The outfitter took the client and guide into the wrong allocation on horseback. So to say he did nothing wrong might not be true.
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Lets not be ambiguous here. You're trotting out that the outfitter is somehow responsible for a decision that an employee made without the outfitters knowledge. There is no case. If my 15 year old child stole a car (hypothetical), I should go to jail or pay a fine? After the upstanding upbringing and rule of law that he was raised up to respect? All of this is hypothetical as I have no 15 year old son. But you would say that I am responsible.........NOT
if the above is true then absolutely they are liable.

if your 15 year old child stole a car and caused damages there is a decent chance you'll pick up the bill. you wont go to jail or anything that's just silly. it happened to a group of guys i knew growing up they got together and kicked over signs etc rcmp caught them and their parents paid to fix everything.

you'll have to prove that you were supervising them adequately at the time or that you took some action to curb the illegal act and if the bugger is stealing cars i doubt you were.
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Old 03-03-2016, 10:48 AM
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http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=279165
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  #27  
Old 03-03-2016, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by decker View Post
Look at it this way, say your employed by a contractor as the site manager to build pressure piping for a plant site. Your behind schedule and have to take shortcuts to make sure it is done on time, you decide to not complete a pressure test on a portion of the job which will save you a couple days. This is against code which is a Law. They fire the plant up and a fitting on the portion you decided not to test blows up and injures a worker of the owner. Who do you think gets charged?
If the company was aware that no pressure yest was performed, they would assume the responsibility but if the workers forged the report to indicate that the pressure test was performed, the people that decided not to perform the pressure test, and that forged the report would be liable. An employer does have some responsibility for his workers actions, but he is not entirely responsible for their actions., especially if the employees decide to deviate from the directions they are provided , and the employer is not made aware of the deviation.
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Old 03-03-2016, 11:19 AM
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An employer does have some responsibility for his workers actions, but he is not entirely responsible for their actions., especially if the employees decide to deviate from the directions they are provided , and the employer is not made aware of the deviation.
and if the employer took no action to avoid deviations. simply being ignorant isn't an excuse that will hold up in any court.
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Old 03-03-2016, 11:44 AM
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and if the employer took no action to avoid deviations. simply being ignorant isn't an excuse that will hold up in any court.

In order to attempt to avoid deviations, the employer must be aware that the employee would consider making that deviation in the first place. I doubt that many outfitters would expect their guide to instruct his client to shoot a short sheep, and then bury it. The outfitter can ensure that the guide is well aware of the regulations, and what constitutes a legal sheep, but the guide makes the call as to whether the sheep is legal, The outfitter isn't present to verify if the sheep is legal, or to see the guide panic after he realizes that the sheep is not legal.
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Old 03-03-2016, 11:55 AM
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In order to attempt to avoid deviations, the employer must be aware that the employee would consider making that deviation in the first place. I doubt that many outfitters would expect their guide to instruct his client to shoot a short sheep, and then bury it. The outfitter can ensure that the guide is well aware of the regulations, and what constitutes a legal sheep, but the guide makes the call as to whether the sheep is legal, The outfitter isn't present to verify if the sheep is legal, or to see the guide panic after he realizes that the sheep is not legal.
ok an on the spot call to shoot a ram that falls short. like i said that is unfortunate i'm sure they didn't go out to do that in the first place. but there was a whole boat load of things that went wrong before and after that.

there was also the issue regarding zones. is the guide not checking in via sat phone or spot? does he not know where his people are and where they are hunting?


i cant buy ignorance as an excuse here it doesn't fit.
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