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Old 11-07-2017, 08:09 AM
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Default 17 Hornet Reloading~it's own thread!

Hey guys~while I haven't decided (fully) whether or not I will be hand loading something so small...I would love to hear from people who DO hand load for it and even better, what loads shoot best from their guns. If you own a CZ 527 Varmint~I'm ESPECIALLY keen on hearing from you...but all are welcome.

I've hand loaded for my .223, .204R, and .243 Win and in all cases...my approach was more or less the same. CCI BR4 or BR2 (.243) primers, a little Google work to confirm best powder choices for a given caliber, visit the Hodgedon Reloading data site, etc. I could get .223 and .243 shooting GREAT with Varget, .204R took a little more work. Anyhow, I've heard/read about that "lil gun" powder for Hornets and the use of Remington Primers (why?)...and am wondering if anyone can shed some light on their successes loading 17 Hornet. Any tips, pet loads, target photos, favorite dies (and why) it would be greatly appreciated. I'll be sure to post myself once I've gotten into it, and had some time to get to a range. The process has been slow, but I have the rifle, 1 spare mag, scope, 2 boxes of factory ammo (15gr and 20 gr.)

"en route"~more 20gr. V-Max factory ammo, 25gr HP factory ammo,Warne scope rings, and a nice little heap of once-fired Hornady brass. (saw an opportunity)

Undecided/not purchased~dies, bullets, shell holders for RCBS press and RCBS priming tool.

Powder on hand~Varget, Reloader 10X (Alliant), H4198, H322, H4350...but a willingness to buy/try others

Look forward to hearing from the 17 Hornet fans!
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Old 11-07-2017, 08:34 AM
Jeron Kahyar Jeron Kahyar is offline
 
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Ever since I saw the .17 Hornet show up I have been intrigued. Looks like a great varmiting/practice round.

Reloading likely can be done at a very reasonable price for it. Knowing my fat fingers and experience reloading the .204 Ruger, I may need tweezers to hold that tiny bullet. I have tried to pinch my fingers in the seating die one to many times.

I understand many have had good success with Hodgons Lil'Gun. Looks like the Hodgons CFE BLK would be worth looking into as well.
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Old 11-07-2017, 09:14 AM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is online now
 
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I didn't want to wait for neck bushing dies, so I went with Redding FL dies, and I bump the shoulder just far enough to easily chamber a round. My CZ527 shot very well with all loads, perhaps slightly better with slightly reduced load of N-120, around 3400fps vs almost 3700fps with Lil Gun. My Cooper likes Lil Gun at 3680fps, but I do intend to try CFE BLK next spring. I have had no issues with trying to load the small bullets, no tweezers required. Remington #6-1/2 primers that worked so well in my 22 Hornet, allow blow by the primer in the 17 hornet, so I settled on Remington 7-1/2 primers. In all cases, seating at .010" from the lands or even slightly less produced the best accuracy in my rifles. I only have three or four loadings on my cases, so I can't comment on case life at this point. Be careful when purchasing cases, as the early cases had major issues with quality control, especially concerning the primer pocket. The later cases don't have these issues, but there may still be some early cases floating around . When using the Hodgdons online data for Lil Gun, be careful, some people are seeing pressure signs at the starting load of 9.6gr. I am seeing more velocity at my load of 9.5gr than the online data lists for 10gr.
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Old 11-07-2017, 09:44 AM
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
I didn't want to wait for neck bushing dies, so I went with Redding FL dies, and I bump the shoulder just far enough to easily chamber a round. My CZ527 shot very well with all loads, perhaps slightly better with slightly reduced load of N-120, around 3400fps vs almost 3700fps with Lil Gun. My Cooper likes Lil Gun at 3680fps, but I do intend to try CFE BLK next spring. I have had no issues with trying to load the small bullets, no tweezers required. Remington #6-1/2 primers that worked so well in my 22 Hornet, allow blow by the primer in the 17 hornet, so I settled on Remington 7-1/2 primers. In all cases, seating at .010" from the lands or even slightly less produced the best accuracy in my rifles. I only have three or four loadings on my cases, so I can't comment on case life at this point. Be careful when purchasing cases, as the early cases had major issues with quality control, especially concerning the primer pocket. The later cases don't have these issues, but there may still be some early cases floating around . When using the Hodgdons online data for Lil Gun, be careful, some people are seeing pressure signs at the starting load of 9.6gr. I am seeing more velocity at my load of 9.5gr than the online data lists for 10gr.
Well~didn't catch that detail soon enough but the brass is on it's way. Hopefully, there will be no issues with it. Won't be too expensive a mistake if it's a problem.

So these numbered Remington primers~what's the difference between 6-1/2 and 7-1/2 primers? You've settled on 7-1/2?
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Old 11-07-2017, 10:01 AM
PartTimeHunter PartTimeHunter is offline
 
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There is a warning on the 6 1/2's stating not to use in high intensity cartridges such as 17 Rem, 222, Rem, 223 Rem. I remember reading somewhere, but can't find it now, that the 6 1/2's should only be used on the 218 Bee (if I remember correct).

I do know that when I started loading for my 20 Extreme I had problems with the primers showing pressure signs at beginning loads. Switched to 7 1/2's and was able to load hotter loads. I don't run max pressure loads but couldn't get to the accurate ones with the 6 1/2's. So now I have about 1800 6 1/2 primers sitting in the back corner - any one interested?
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Old 11-07-2017, 10:03 AM
amosfella amosfella is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Groundhogger View Post
Well~didn't catch that detail soon enough but the brass is on it's way. Hopefully, there will be no issues with it. Won't be too expensive a mistake if it's a problem.

So these numbered Remington primers~what's the difference between 6-1/2 and 7-1/2 primers? You've settled on 7-1/2?
6.5 are standard small rifle, 7.5 are magnum small rifle.
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Old 11-07-2017, 10:12 AM
amosfella amosfella is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Groundhogger View Post
Hey guys~while I haven't decided (fully) whether or not I will be hand loading something so small...I would love to hear from people who DO hand load for it and even better, what loads shoot best from their guns. If you own a CZ 527 Varmint~I'm ESPECIALLY keen on hearing from you...but all are welcome.

I've hand loaded for my .223, .204R, and .243 Win and in all cases...my approach was more or less the same. CCI BR4 or BR2 (.243) primers, a little Google work to confirm best powder choices for a given caliber, visit the Hodgedon Reloading data site, etc. I could get .223 and .243 shooting GREAT with Varget, .204R took a little more work. Anyhow, I've heard/read about that "lil gun" powder for Hornets and the use of Remington Primers (why?)...and am wondering if anyone can shed some light on their successes loading 17 Hornet. Any tips, pet loads, target photos, favorite dies (and why) it would be greatly appreciated. I'll be sure to post myself once I've gotten into it, and had some time to get to a range. The process has been slow, but I have the rifle, 1 spare mag, scope, 2 boxes of factory ammo (15gr and 20 gr.)

"en route"~more 20gr. V-Max factory ammo, 25gr HP factory ammo,Warne scope rings, and a nice little heap of once-fired Hornady brass. (saw an opportunity)

Undecided/not purchased~dies, bullets, shell holders for RCBS press and RCBS priming tool.

Powder on hand~Varget, Reloader 10X (Alliant), H4198, H322, H4350...but a willingness to buy/try others

Look forward to hearing from the 17 Hornet fans!
Look at H322 and H4198. I use a case full of WC735 under all bullets I bought to try. Works well with a rem 7.5 primer. WC735 is similar in speed to H322 and H4198. (Check the speed of reloader 10, as it may be close and work as well)

In my mind, Lil'gun might be too reactive of a powder to use in that small of a cartridge. I have a bottle of it, but haven't used it.

The Hornady seating die is quite nice. The seater drops out of the die to allow you to get the bullet into it without pinching your fingers.

I haven't used a bushing die on that case, but I was looking for a lee collet die for that cartridge a few years ago.

I'm still shooting out factory ammo that I bought for the cases, as the factory ammo was cheaper to buy than new brass at the time.

I haven't had problems with the primer pockets of the older brass with gold primers.
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Old 11-07-2017, 11:10 AM
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Originally Posted by amosfella View Post
Look at H322 and H4198. I use a case full of WC735 under all bullets I bought to try. Works well with a rem 7.5 primer. WC735 is similar in speed to H322 and H4198. (Check the speed of reloader 10, as it may be close and work as well)

In my mind, Lil'gun might be too reactive of a powder to use in that small of a cartridge. I have a bottle of it, but haven't used it.

The Hornady seating die is quite nice. The seater drops out of the die to allow you to get the bullet into it without pinching your fingers.

I haven't used a bushing die on that case, but I was looking for a lee collet die for that cartridge a few years ago.

I'm still shooting out factory ammo that I bought for the cases, as the factory ammo was cheaper to buy than new brass at the time.

I haven't had problems with the primer pockets of the older brass with gold primers.
^that's interesting. I'd love to see what that looks like. I'll hit Google later today. (unless you can post a few photos?)

Thanks for the Remington primer info too~noted. Curious as to why that primer is more closely associated with 17 Hornet than CCI seems to be. Odd. However, if it's the one to use..I'll try to track some down. Glad I held-off on the RCBS dies I saw @ Cabela's last night. $99 for the FL size+seating, so not a great price anyway.
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Old 11-07-2017, 12:00 PM
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When you are going after brass make sure you get good stuff. I have a 218 Bee and the SAAMI spec for rim thickness is .065. My winchester brass has a thickness of .055. I was at a gun show a while back and the Starline 32-20 brass had a thickness of .060.

So what I am trying to do is to get it to headspace on the shoulder, not much of a shoulder to work with. Maybe I should just spring for the Starline brass.

If I were you, I would take a caliper with me when shopping for brass.
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Old 11-07-2017, 12:16 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is online now
 
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Originally Posted by amosfella View Post
6.5 are standard small rifle, 7.5 are magnum small rifle.
Not quite, the 7-1/2 are standard small rifle primers, the 6-1/2 are special primers for the very small capacity/lower pressure cartridges like the 22 hornet. The 6-1/2 primers are not recommended for the standard pressure cartridges like the 223rem.
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Last edited by elkhunter11; 11-07-2017 at 12:22 PM.
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Old 11-07-2017, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Not quite, the 7-1/2 are standard small rifle primers, the 6-1/2 are special primers for the very small capacity/lower pressure cartridges like the 22 hornet. The 6-1/2 primers are not recommended for the standard pressure cartridges like the 223rem.
Thanks for the clarification. Curious as to why I'm reading that 7-1/2 are what guys are using for 17 Hornet then...? Any idea?

Also interested in whether or not (or rather, WHY not) CCI isn't recommended? 400s or BR4s? Just what people happen to have on hand...or is there something special about the Remington ones? I've never even seen Remington primers for sale. Didn't know they even made them.
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Old 11-07-2017, 12:56 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is online now
 
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Originally Posted by Groundhogger View Post
Thanks for the clarification. Curious as to why I'm reading that 7-1/2 are what guys are using for 17 Hornet then...? Any idea?

Also interested in whether or not (or rather, WHY not) CCI isn't recommended? 400s or BR4s? Just what people happen to have on hand...or is there something special about the Remington ones? I've never even seen Remington primers for sale. Didn't know they even made them.
I am using the 7-1/2 primers because I bought 3000 of them, along with 3lbs of Lil Gun and 2200 Zombiemax bullets for a great price, from a fellow that sold his 17hornet, and wanted to sell off his components. The combination worked well in my rifle, so I never tried any other primers. I usually use Federal 205m primers for the small capacity cartridges.
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Old 11-07-2017, 02:09 PM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is online now
 
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Originally Posted by amosfella View Post
6.5 are standard small rifle, 7.5 are magnum small rifle.
Rem 6 1/2 Small Rifle Primers written on the package and similar to CCI 400 but may take slightly less pressure. Rem 7 1/2 Small Rife Bench Rest on the package and very similar to Federal Small Rifle 205 Gold Medal Match and CCI BR4 Small Rifle Match Primers. Although the Rem 7 1/2 will take a bit more pressure, before showing pressure signs, than the 205GMM they take a bit less pressure than the CCI BR4. Any of these will work fine in the 17 Hornet just be aware that they will take more pressure than the case will handle and any cratering or primer flow of the primers, in a fire formed case, is likely too hot for this 50,000 PSI rated case. Use data from the Ramshot Manual as some Hornady loads are too hot with AA1680 and try AA 2200 if you can get it. (see Link) http://www.ramshot.com/load-data/. Ramshot use Winchester Small Rifle Primers (WSR) in their Data.

Hodgdon have pressure data for Lil Gun at a Max 10.0 grains but I would avoid using it as it can be quite volatile and cases of detonation have been reported. However their CFE BLK, or blackout powder shows great promise for this cartridge and is what I would be looking for. Hodgdon use Federal 205M primers in their loads.

I did not find a problem with the Early Brass but the early Factory ammo was loaded too hot, with a temperature sensitive powder, and I had a primer blow. I also believe that this was the problem with reloading Factory 1X fired brass as the primer pockets were already loose. However I did not reload these cases and some reported shallow primer pockets which I did not experience. One blown primer was enough with my Savage 25 as it blew the extractor out of the bolt so I sold it along with likely the first set of Hornady dies to hit Canada as a friend brought them up from the States before they were readily available in Canada. I found these dies to be a perfect fit as they sized brass to within 0.001", of a fire formed brass at the neck, shoulder and base datum and HS as well. Got an opportunity to buy a CZ 527 American along with a set of Redding FL dies and a bunch of fired brass and ammo. Found the Reloaded brass to have about 0.0012- 0.0015" excess HS although that could have been because the new brass had not fireformed?? At any rate the Redding Dies overworked the brass at the shoulder and base, compared to the Hornady dies so I recommending buying Hornady.

I had an opportunity to compare some brass from some of the "New" Factory ammo and found that it held nearly a grain less than the "Old" brass and primers seated so hard that they were flattened a bit from my hand held primer. The new factory rounds were running much less pressure/velociyty as well. Please be aware of this and load accordingly and start low with a pressure ladder. I have no further interest in this cartridge although it performs well with the new factory ammo and perhaps even better with handloads?? Just be careful as pressures can really jump up fast in this small cartridge.

Last edited by lclund1946; 11-07-2017 at 02:15 PM.
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Old 11-07-2017, 06:21 PM
Jeron Kahyar Jeron Kahyar is offline
 
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So these numbered Remington primers~what's the difference between 6-1/2 and 7-1/2 primers? You've settled on 7-1/2?
This does a good explanation/comparison on primers:

http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php
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Old 11-08-2017, 12:15 PM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is online now
 
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Originally Posted by Jeron Kahyar View Post
This does a good explanation/comparison on primers:

http://www.jamescalhoon.com/primers_and_pressure.php
The best thing I ever did was buy a CZ 527 Kevlar, in 19 Badger, from Jim. The next best thing I did was learn as much as I could from this man via this and other articles, talking to him on the phone and picking up components in person at his shop. It was what eventually led to me developing my own wildcat cartridges and the methods I use to Develop Good Safe Loads for them. These methods work well Saami cartridges as well.

Just remember that the 17 Hornet case was designed to run at 50,000 PSI Max which is why the small rifle primers, designed for 40,000PSI, come up short and peirce. More important is to remember that the ones designed for 55,000 PSI cases, especially the CCI 450 Magnum, will not show pressure signs until well past the pressure that the 17 H case will tolerate. That is also why it is possible to determine when pressures exceed the 57,000 PSI that 223cases were designed for. Get a micrometer, measure the base of a new case, and make certain that that measurement falls somewhere in between Saami Max Cartridge base diameter (0.2982") and where the Hornady FL die sizes the base (0.2973" with the die I had) without bumping the shoulder. You will have no pressure problems and the brass will last a long time.
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Old 11-08-2017, 04:47 PM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is online now
 
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The best thing I ever did was buy a CZ 527 Kevlar, in 19 Badger, from Jim. The next best thing I did was learn as much as I could from this man via this and other articles, talking to him on the phone and picking up components in person at his shop. It was what eventually led to me developing my own wildcat cartridges and the methods I use to Develop Good Safe Loads for them. These methods work well Saami cartridges as well.

Just remember that the 17 Hornet case was designed to run at 50,000 PSI Max which is why the small rifle primers, designed for 40,000PSI, come up short and peirce. More important is to remember that the ones designed for 55,000 PSI cases, especially the CCI 450 Magnum, will not show pressure signs until well past the pressure that the 17 H case will tolerate. That is also why it is possible to determine when pressures exceed the 57,000 PSI that 223cases were designed for. Get a micrometer, measure the base of a new case, and make certain that that measurement falls somewhere in between Saami Max Cartridge base diameter (0.2982") and where the Hornady FL die sizes the base (0.2973" with the die I had) without bumping the shoulder. You will have no pressure problems and the brass will last a long time.
Here is the Saami Spec Sheet that I used to compare measurements of a new case (black) to the first Factory fired cases (red) from my Savage 25. The load was hot enough to fully fireform the brass which was not the case with new factory ammo in a CZ 527 last spring. I did not have a 0.240" HS bushing so used a 25 cal comparator bushing that measures 0.247". New brass had 0.012" HS compared to a fireformed brass which takes a lot of pressure to fireform. New brass stretched .0053" at the base datum, well past the Maximum case diameter of 0.2982", but still within the maximum chamber diameter of 0.3012". This indicated to me that this was an over max load for this case and I believe I was proven correct when I had a primer blow under sustained fire on a 32Celsius afternoon in the gopher patch.


[IMG][/IMG]

Here is a picture showing an unfired primer on the right with one, in the middle, fired just before the one that blew. The one in the middle had about 0.006" primer flow and about the same primer pocket expansion. The one on the left had what looked like more primer protrusion and the primer pocket had expanded 0.007" and the base was fully fireformed to the chamber as shown in the next picture.
[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

If this can happen with factory Ammo that showed obvious over pressure past the Saami Maximum Case Diameter it will surly happen with handloads. This is why I urge you to do these measurements as you do a pressure ladder described in the thread about "Finding the Accurate Load".
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Old 11-09-2017, 08:30 AM
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Thanks for the input guys~greatly appreciated. Hope to hear the roar of this rifle pretty soon. Winter may be arriving in this part of the world tonight, so a weekend test shoot may/may not happen. I'll keep you all posted.

In the interest of keeping the inspiration level up...does anyone have photos of their 17 Hornet rifles in the gopher patch? Beside any other varmints?
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Old 11-09-2017, 11:58 AM
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2016-04-29_06-44-37 by wolverine00089, on Flickr
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Old 11-10-2017, 11:20 AM
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^I'd love to hear more about THAT photo! nicely done!
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Old 11-11-2017, 10:11 AM
amosfella amosfella is offline
 
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^I'd love to hear more about THAT photo! nicely done!
Heard yotes howling around the yard near dark. So, I set up a caller and put up a pup in distress call. Then I stopped, as I thought they'd moved on. My guardian dog didn't even respond to the call. I thought the call was no good.

Then she got up and ran off the step from the other side of the house from where the yote was coming in, and was barking at him/her at the barbed wire fence, and the yote wasn't backing down from a 135 pound dog, but still keeping his distance.

So, while he was arguing with my tiny puppy, I shot him in the head at 85 yards with a 20 gr vmax. He dropped right there and never moved. Felt like the bullet blew the skull into 3 pieces.

My dog sulked in the bushes for about an hour. She doesn't like gunfire...

I've shot yotes at 285 yards as measured with a rangefinder. With the vmax, they don't seem to go very far, and I've never seen a exit wound. I think that only covers 13 dogs though...
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Old 11-11-2017, 11:07 AM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is online now
 
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Rem 6 1/2 Small Rifle Primers written on the package and similar to CCI 400 but may take slightly less pressure. Rem 7 1/2 Small Rife Bench Rest on the package and very similar to Federal Small Rifle 205 Gold Medal Match and CCI BR4 Small Rifle Match Primers. Although the Rem 7 1/2 will take a bit more pressure, before showing pressure signs, than the 205GMM they take a bit less pressure than the CCI BR4. Any of these will work fine in the 17 Hornet just be aware that they will take more pressure than the case will handle and any cratering or primer flow of the primers, in a fire formed case, is likely too hot for this 50,000 PSI rated case. Use data from the Ramshot Manual as some Hornady loads are too hot with AA1680 and try AA 2200 if you can get it. (see Link) http://www.ramshot.com/load-data/. Ramshot use Winchester Small Rifle Primers (WSR) in their Data.

Hodgdon have pressure data for Lil Gun at a Max 10.0 grains but I would avoid using it as it can be quite volatile and cases of detonation have been reported. However their CFE BLK, or blackout powder shows great promise for this cartridge and is what I would be looking for. Hodgdon use Federal 205M primers in their loads.

I did not find a problem with the Early Brass but the early Factory ammo was loaded too hot, with a temperature sensitive powder, and I had a primer blow. I also believe that this was the problem with reloading Factory 1X fired brass as the primer pockets were already loose. However I did not reload these cases and some reported shallow primer pockets which I did not experience. One blown primer was enough with my Savage 25 as it blew the extractor out of the bolt so I sold it along with likely the first set of Hornady dies to hit Canada as a friend brought them up from the States before they were readily available in Canada. I found these dies to be a perfect fit as they sized brass to within 0.001", of a fire formed brass at the neck, shoulder and base datum and HS as well. Got an opportunity to buy a CZ 527 American along with a set of Redding FL dies and a bunch of fired brass and ammo. Found the Reloaded brass to have about 0.0012- 0.0015" excess HS although that could have been because the new brass had not fireformed?? At any rate the Redding Dies overworked the brass at the shoulder and base, compared to the Hornady dies so I recommending buying Hornady.

I had an opportunity to compare some brass from some of the "New" Factory ammo and found that it held nearly a grain less than the "Old" brass and primers seated so hard that they were flattened a bit from my hand held primer. The new factory rounds were running much less pressure/velociyty as well. Please be aware of this and load accordingly and start low with a pressure ladder. I have no further interest in this cartridge although it performs well with the new factory ammo and perhaps even better with handloads?? Just be careful as pressures can really jump up fast in this small cartridge.
Here is an example of the volatility of LilGun loaded just 0.1 grains under Hornady's Start load. Like the early factory rounds it is really temperature sensitive in that it does not "Show pressure Signs" at lower temperatures."A friend has been loading Lil Gun in a 17 Hornet.
9.8gr.----- 20 gr V max.
The load was developed in cool weather for shooting sage rats.
Pressure seemed normal with no ill effects on a sage rat shoot in cool (70-75*) weather.
Cases were reloaded and primer pockets were tight.
The next trip the air temp was hotter (90-95).
When he tried to reload them after that the primer pockets were too loose to use them.
He said he left the ammo in the sun and made no real effort to cool the barrel.
This leads me to believe that Lil Gun is quite temperature sensitive.
I have shot a 17 cal. for 40 years and am aware that small changes in 17 bores can make a BIG difference.
So what say you gents? Have any experience with Lil Gun and temperature caused pressure spikes?...."


This fellow from NZ found the "new factory 20 grain loads to be much slower in his CZ 527 American, than Hornady's early ammo that they claimed 3650 fps, just as I did. "factory hornady ammo 3540fps". He also had some good info on CFE BLK "CFE Blackout, Hornardy brass and WSR primer. five shots of each.
20gr v-max.
12g - 3470fps
12.3g - 3566fps
12.6g - 3738fps
12.8g - 3779fps."
.
It would appear that the Hodgdon Max Load of 12.8 may be a bit on the hot side especially if the powder is a bit temperature sensitive. I would look for a "Good Load" using a pressure ladder working up in 0.1 grain increments from 12.0 to 12.5 grains which should get to 3650 which they show as max velocity. I would do this when the temperature was near the max that I would be using it. Perhaps this fellow would chime if he is on AOF which is likely as he has spent time in Northern Alberta.
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Old 11-11-2017, 01:19 PM
amosfella amosfella is offline
 
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I think that maybe we're looking at the idea of case head expansion wrong. I have visited with a few reloaders who do hotter than normal loading. The type of over pressure loading that many guys say gives you a three shot case life.

The guys that did the hotter than normal loading said that they sized their brass a few thou bigger than the chamber so that the bolt is actually compressing the case when the handle is turned down the whole way. They have all told me that the case life was very acceptable doing it that way. 10+ shots per case.

Later I did an experiment with full length resizing a 270 winchester. I started with brand new winchester cases. I lubed the brass after seating the bullet with a very light film of lithium grease. And I ran a load pushing the 150 gr bullet out of the gun at 3050 fps according to the chronograph. My cases didn't show any loosening of the primer pockets after 10 loads each. Neither did they show case head separation, or case head expansion. I even used one case that came from the factory with a loose primer pocket, and the primer pocket never got any looser, and neither did the primer flatten more than the other cases with good pockets. And I did measure with a micrometer. The difference was negligible from the first shot to the last.

This has led me to the theory that case head expansion is caused by case head flex caused by the case walls gripping the side of the chamber, the pressure pushes the primer back against the bolt face; then the pressure bows the case head backwards, center first, (the weakest point) pushing the primer back into the pocket, flattening the primer; then the web of the case is stretched after the case head pushes against the bolt face, reflattening the case head against the bolt face. The stretching of the case web can gradually lead to case head failure if the cases aren't taken out of use soon enough.
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  #23  
Old 11-11-2017, 01:22 PM
elkhunter11 elkhunter11 is online now
 
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Originally Posted by lclund1946 View Post
Here is an example of the volatility of LilGun loaded just 0.1 grains under Hornady's Start load. Like the early factory rounds it is really temperature sensitive in that it does not "Show pressure Signs" at lower temperatures."A friend has been loading Lil Gun in a 17 Hornet.
9.8gr.----- 20 gr V max.
The load was developed in cool weather for shooting sage rats.
Pressure seemed normal with no ill effects on a sage rat shoot in cool (70-75*) weather.
Cases were reloaded and primer pockets were tight.
The next trip the air temp was hotter (90-95).
When he tried to reload them after that the primer pockets were too loose to use them.
He said he left the ammo in the sun and made no real effort to cool the barrel.
This leads me to believe that Lil Gun is quite temperature sensitive.
I have shot a 17 cal. for 40 years and am aware that small changes in 17 bores can make a BIG difference.
So what say you gents? Have any experience with Lil Gun and temperature caused pressure spikes?...."


This fellow from NZ found the "new factory 20 grain loads to be much slower in his CZ 527 American, than Hornady's early ammo that they claimed 3650 fps, just as I did. "factory hornady ammo 3540fps". He also had some good info on CFE BLK "CFE Blackout, Hornardy brass and WSR primer. five shots of each.
20gr v-max.
12g - 3470fps
12.3g - 3566fps
12.6g - 3738fps
12.8g - 3779fps."
.
It would appear that the Hodgdon Max Load of 12.8 may be a bit on the hot side especially if the powder is a bit temperature sensitive. I would look for a "Good Load" using a pressure ladder working up in 0.1 grain increments from 12.0 to 12.5 grains which should get to 3650 which they show as max velocity. I would do this when the temperature was near the max that I would be using it. Perhaps this fellow would chime if he is on AOF which is likely as he has spent time in Northern Alberta.
Most people that are using Lil Gun have discovered that a load of around 9.5 grains will match or exceed the velocity listed for the max load of 10gr in the Hodgdon data. Once I saw 3680fps at 20 degrees, I didn't bother trying to work up the load any hotter. If my velocity at 9.5gr exceeds the velocity for the maximum load, it only makes sense that increasing the powder charge to 9.8 or 10 gr, would produce excessive pressure, especially in hot weather.
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  #24  
Old 11-11-2017, 05:29 PM
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dogslayer403 dogslayer403 is offline
 
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Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Most people that are using Lil Gun have discovered that a load of around 9.5 grains will match or exceed the velocity listed for the max load of 10gr in the Hodgdon data. Once I saw 3680fps at 20 degrees, I didn't bother trying to work up the load any hotter. If my velocity at 9.5gr exceeds the velocity for the maximum load, it only makes sense that increasing the powder charge to 9.8 or 10 gr, would produce excessive pressure, especially in hot weather.
Did some ladder testing the other night im maxed out at 9.5 i will call 9.4 my max load range.
Now i have to go find a powder funnel lol first thing I realized as this is the first 17cal ive loaded for is my funnel is to big and my makeshift one sucks
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Old 11-11-2017, 07:49 PM
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Groundhogger Groundhogger is offline
 
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Originally Posted by dogslayer403 View Post
Did some ladder testing the other night im maxed out at 9.5 i will call 9.4 my max load range.
Now i have to go find a powder funnel lol first thing I realized as this is the first 17cal ive loaded for is my funnel is to big and my makeshift one sucks
^I just ordered a Satern powder funnel for mine. I've used them for .223, .204R and .243Win~they're great. Wasn't sure their .17 one would work with 17H, so I called Satern and they assured me it would. Ordered it from Brownells, through my LGS
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  #26  
Old 11-11-2017, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Groundhogger View Post
^I just ordered a Satern powder funnel for mine. I've used them for .223, .204R and .243Win~they're great. Wasn't sure their .17 one would work with 17H, so I called Satern and they assured me it would. Ordered it from Brownells, through my LGS
Nice i will look for that thanks
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  #27  
Old 11-12-2017, 12:02 PM
lclund1946 lclund1946 is online now
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elkhunter11 View Post
Most people that are using Lil Gun have discovered that a load of around 9.5 grains will match or exceed the velocity listed for the max load of 10gr in the Hodgdon data. Once I saw 3680fps at 20 degrees, I didn't bother trying to work up the load any hotter. If my velocity at 9.5gr exceeds the velocity for the maximum load, it only makes sense that increasing the powder charge to 9.8 or 10 gr, would produce excessive pressure, especially in hot weather.
Yes that is exactly right and what I suggested when working up a load for the CFE BLK as the 12.8 Max load did appear to be too hot at 3779 when it only developed 3650 at 48,100 PSI in Hodgdons Max Load. Of course this leaves a 1900 PSI cushion, in the 50,000 PSI case, and measuring Case Expansion at the .200" Datum (PRE) would likely show less than the Saami Max Cartridge Diameter, .2982" especially if a new case was used which would measure around .295".

This discrepancy could also be because one of "Hornady's new factory cases" was used. I found them to be nearly 0.1grain heavier and hold nearly 1 grain less N120 than the original factory cases. This is a major consideration when re-loading and a very good reason to start low and measure PRE, or case expansion at the .200 Datum, while looking for pressure as primers are not a good pressure indicator in the 17 H. Also Rem 7 1/2 primers will blow long before the bolt shows any signs of seizing in both the Savage 25 and CZ 527 although primers will begin to flow into the firing pin hole before that happens. The 17 H case head can expand up to 0.005" before it is noticeable to the eye and before the primer will let loose. These pictures show primer pocket reamer diameter and primer pocket diameter of + 0.007" on a blown factory loaded case extreme temperature and sustained fire ( 7th round).
[IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG]

Last edited by lclund1946; 11-12-2017 at 12:16 PM.
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  #28  
Old 11-12-2017, 12:38 PM
southernman southernman is offline
 
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I've got two CZ .17 hornets a varmint, now chopped and suppressed to 20", and a American.
Have tried the following powders, H110, H4198, Littlegun, 4227, N120. And CFE blackout,
N120 gave best accuracy, in both rifles, at 3300fps for 10.5 gr
H110 was vet slow, 3100 fps, 4227 a bit faster 3200 good accuracy with both.
Littlegun was very erratic, and I experienced the odd blowed primer.
H4198 very accurate and at 3350,
Blackout gave just slight less accuracy that the best powder N120, and much higher speeds. 3700fps

blackout with a 20gr v-max. Wsr primer. /Cci 400, Hornardy or Ppu brass.

I got 12g -3470fps x5 shots avg
12.3 -3566fps x5 shots avg
12.5 -3700fps x5 shots avg
12.6- 3738fps x5 shots
12-8-3779fps x3 shots.
Shot in a CZ American and a mangospeed crony.
My CZ varmint 20" barrel is with in 25fps of the American. Very good performance, from such a small case.
Hard on rabbits, got head shot them, or no eating left.
I have settled on 12.5 gr Blackout with 20 v-max, wsr or Cci, for my main varmint load.
I tried 11.2 gr blackout with a 25 gr hornardy HP, for 3187 fps. Sub half inch.

Hope this help those looking for info.

Last edited by southernman; 11-12-2017 at 12:42 PM. Reason: Addy info.
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  #29  
Old 11-12-2017, 02:05 PM
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dogslayer403 dogslayer403 is offline
 
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Well lil gun is out on my rifle set up the chrono and loaded up some 20g vmax 5 of each at 9.2,9.3,9.4
First two at 9.2 went 3646 and 3657 i was suprised to be almost at book max velocity on that load then shot 3 went 3580 and sure enough blown primer. Chronoed my factory ammo at 3570. The other day i went to 9.5g before it showed pressure signs when i didnt have my chrono now im having blow outs at 9.2g way to unpredictable for me I think I will grab some cfe blk and try to shoot for 3550-3600 fps if that doesnt work out this gun is getting fed factory 20g heck it might anyway shoots darn good with factory
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  #30  
Old 11-12-2017, 02:43 PM
amosfella amosfella is offline
 
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Originally Posted by dogslayer403 View Post
Well lil gun is out on my rifle set up the chrono and loaded up some 20g vmax 5 of each at 9.2,9.3,9.4
First two at 9.2 went 3646 and 3657 i was suprised to be almost at book max velocity on that load then shot 3 went 3580 and sure enough blown primer. Chronoed my factory ammo at 3570. The other day i went to 9.5g before it showed pressure signs when i didnt have my chrono now im having blow outs at 9.2g way to unpredictable for me I think I will grab some cfe blk and try to shoot for 3550-3600 fps if that doesnt work out this gun is getting fed factory 20g heck it might anyway shoots darn good with factory
Do you have any H322?? Maybe give that a try...
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