Would you be in favor of Canadian CCW?

[Boberama]

Would you be in favor of shall-issue concealed carry laws being introduced across Canada, so that one could obtain a permit as long as they had no prior criminal record, and be able to carry a handgun?

If so, what restrictions would you place on it?

OK, for me, I'd definitely be in favour of it being inroduce right away. I'd like to see restrictions on felons carrying firearms (or as we call them here, indictable offenders), and on carrying fully automatic weapons, but otherwise, I can't think of much I'd restrict.
I would implement a CUI charge though. Like DUI, but for carrying. No one should get drunk while carrying a gun.
I would also let provinces decide on open carry, yes or no.

I have probably forgot a ton of things, but I'll think of it later.


What's your opinion? No inflammatory/offensive posts please. Don't let things get heated.

[James M]

hell yeaaaahhhh!!!!!!!!!!!

[rugatika]

I think it's a crime against humanity that we aren't allowed to defend ourselves. Goes against human nature.

Which commie bed wetter voted no??

[Boberama]

Yeah, that's what I believe. I'm mulling over moving to Oregon.

Apparently someone named Kannonfodder voted No.
I'd be interested to hear his opinion. Nice name for a No vote, don't cha think?

[BBJTKLE&FISHINGADVENTURES]

Damn rights !!!!

[redneck posse]

im for it but i think along with a full background check you should have to get checked out to see if you are mentally capable also to carry. meaning i wouldnt want to see some gun-ho dumbazz walking around with a 45

[Nomad]

For those in favor, come join the fight.

http://www.canadacarry.org/forums/

[Boberama]

Yeah, full background check INVADES my privacy, and they could label anyone as mentally ill.

A guy with who was on several forums under the name Blitz_308 was involved in a shooting. He was carrying a Dan Wesson 1911 and took repeated hits with a 38 Special.
The guys at Arfcom got together and bought him a new Dan Wesson Valor, since the old one was taken in for evidence with blood all over it.

Carrying the gun may have saved his life, or came close to taking it away, depending on your viewpoint.

Here's the story:

"Many of you have asked me some great questions concerning the incident I was in last October and expressed interest in the whole story. Well, after talking to the prosecuting attorney, I was told that for interviews and such, just stick to the facts, so here goes...This is a long read so bear with me please.

Back story: Several friends and I meet on Tues nights at the office of a few lawyers here in town for the purpose of social interaction, maybe have a couple drinks, a good cigar and good conversation. I had missed the last couple meetings leading up to the one on Oct. 13 but promised the guy who organized the group that I would be showing up for this one. Well, I forgot and was watching TV while the wife was helping one of my sons with a science project on electricity and circuits. They couldn't get the thing to work so I got volunteered to go to Wal-Mart to get a new light bulb and battery.

On the way to Wal-Mart, I realized/remembered that I had removed my gun/holster earlier that day to go to the gym at lunch time and laid it on my desk. I debated with myself for a minute about whether or not to spend the extra 10 minutes to run down to the office to arm myself against the masses there at 9:30 at night. Common sense prevailed and I made the extra stop and was on my way. (Crucial turning point #1 of the night)

I got to Wally World and had just collected my items when the cell phone rang. For whatever reason, the first thing that popped in my head was "Oh ****, this is Tues night and I bet it's my buddy calling me to see where I'm at. It turned out that it was my wife who told me that they had gotten the current bulb and battery to work and that I didn't need to bring new ones home. I told her about having forgotten my promise to join up with the Tues night guys and checked with her to make sure it was ok if I just headed on over there. She was fine with it and so I put my stuff back and headed over to the buddy's office.

When I got to the lawyer's office, there were five of my friends outside having a drink, enjoying their cigars and talking in the carport area on the left side of the building. I said hi to them and asked where Brian was. They said he was inside in his office, so I went in and we bull ****ted for the next half hour or so. We decided that we should probably go back out and join the rest of the guys and headed out the door.

We were out there for maybe a minute when a guy walked up to our group (not uncommon to have the neighbors come by and chat as there are also houses and apartments in this area) wearing a hooded sweatshirt with the hood up and drawn tight and a scarf or balaclava covering everything but his eyes. Not too uncommon, as it was rather cold and rainy that night. What was uncommon was that he was holding a stainless steel revolver at his side. At first I thought it was a joke that one of the guys had set up. I asked "Can we help you?" I can't remember exactly what he said as he raised the revolver up and pointed it at the group of us, except for him telling us to drop whatever we had in our hands and something along the lines of "this is a robbery." He told us that we were going inside and that if any of us made a move, he would shoot us. I was the last person to walk up the two steps of the side door into the conference room and evidently wasn't moving fast enough for him. He put the muzzle in my back and was pushing me forward telling me to hurry up. In my infinite wisdom, I turned my head toward him and told him to quit shoving me, that I couldn't go any faster than the guy in front of me. In my head, almost like a mantra, there was an alarm going off saying "This is why you carry, this is why you carry this is why you carry."

Once we were inside, he told us to get on the floor face down, on the other side of the conference table. When he made us lay down, I picked the point farthest away from him, hoping to buy some time before he got to me. Once he had us down, he instructed us to take out our wallets, watches, jewelry, etc. He was distracted for just a couple seconds when he was getting one of our guys up to carry the plastic bag. Under the guise of getting my wallet out, I very carefully, while watching him the whole time, removed the 1911 from the IWB holster and hid it under my chest. He was keeping a close watch on us almost the entire time and always had the revolver either on someone or pointed directly at someone. I was watching for it and I really did not have an earlier opportunity for a shot without risking my friends' lives further or creating a hostage situation, which I would have been ill equipped to handle.

For whatever reason, maybe because I mouthed off to him earlier, I don't know, but he only collected from one or two people before walking back to where I was. He saw that I did not have a wallet or anything waiting for him and while standing over me, pulled my leather jacket and shirt up to take my wallet from my back pocket. That is when he found my Milt Sparks IWB holster, now devoid of a firearm. He said something to the effect of "Well well well, what do we have here? Where's the gun?" I told him I didn't have it on me. He repeated the question and said that I wouldn't have a holster if there was no gun. I swore that I didn't have it on me and that I'd left it in my vehicle since I might have a drink or two while I was there. He didn't believe me and told me to get up. He decided to assist me by grabbing onto my jacked with his left hand and pull me up. As I pushed myself up as well, I slid my hands under my chest to grab my pistol.

When he pulled me up, he was at my 5 O'clock position. I was still trying to keep him from seeing my gun until I was able to turn into him, so when I came up, I basically had my right hand (holding the pistol) tight to my stomach/chest with the muzzle pointed in the direction of my left shoulder. I don't know why I did that, except to conceal it and maybe so he couldn't take it away from me. I started turning to my right, into him, flipping the safety at some point along the way. He either saw the gun or heard the safety click as I had turned into him enough for him to be at my 3 O'clock and shoved his revolver inside my open jacket against my stomach and fired the first round. Luckily, his angle was off and it only grazed my stomach. Unluckily, I had my left hand tucked against my left side and the round passed through my palm and out the base of my thumb at my wrist.

I continued turning toward him while lowering my pistol to return fire, which evidently put the right hand directly in the line of fire as he squeezed off another round. I can only assume that my hand blocked the shot from hitting my stomach or chest as we were practically face to face at that point. It took me just a second to recover and he started retreating toward the door, backing away from me and shooting. I got two shots off as he was backing away, both missing him. I had the little problem with the next round not going off, thinking I had a jam, I ducked behind the table to clear the gun and yelled for everyone to stay down. I looked down and saw how bad my hands were as I cleared the round out, and stood back up to continue fire. (Looking back on it, I think I realized that I wasn't getting a good grip due to the screwed up hand and neglected to engage the grip safety) He had his back to the door by now and we exchanged a couple more shots (which is when I scored my hit and near miss) until his revolver hit on spent rounds. I will NEVER forget that. There were three clicks. He realized he was out of ammo and was out the door before I could get another shot off. Even in the heat of the moment, I did not attempt to shoot him in the back or pursue him.

I don't know how I retained the gun after being hit in the strong hand, just as I don't know how I made my hands work to clear the round. I just did. It was a combination of adrenaline, survival instinct and the grace of God. I was completely on automatic. The threat was still there and I couldn't stop until it was gone. One of the other guys finally jumped up after the BG went out the door and locked it so he couldn't reload and come back in. I remember seeing him lock the door and finally sat down on the floor, laid my gun down and started looking at the blood pouring out of my hands. A few of the other guys came over to help me and apply pressure to the wounds while another called 911. I made them repeat to me a few times that everyone else was ok and that no one else had been hit. One of the guys that had been there, told me that it was almost scary how lucid and calm that I stayed the entire time while we waited for the ambulance to arrive. It was also discovered at this time that I'd been shot right above my left pectoral muscle. I don't even recall when that happened.

I'm probably repeating myself from the other posts I've made, in saying this, but it was very surreal and real all rolled into one at the same time. In reality, the whole exchange from the first shot probably didn't last more than 30-40 seconds. I'm only saying that long because of the time I took clearing the chamber. It may have still been less than that. From start to finish, meaning when the guy showed up outside to the time when he left took almost exactly 7 minutes.

There you have it. If you've got questions, I'll do my best to answer them. I didn't post this to be a look at me or I'm a bad ass or anything else. I just thought that if anyone could benefit in even the smallest way from my incident and possibly help, then I would like to turn a ****ty encounter into a positive thing.

God Bless you all and thank you so much for the support that you've shown me and my family since this first happened. I couldn't ask for a better group of people to call my extended family and friends."

Justin

[mtylerb]

I'm in favour of completely removing firearm laws, short of crimes committed with a firearm. There should be no laws restricting who can carry or what they can carry. It's a pointless waste of legislation. Focus on punishing those who commit crimes with guns in tow and ignore everybody else.

Allowing legislation to dictate that a mentally ill person is not allowed to carry, just opens the door to them classifying more people as mentally ill. I mean really, define normal?

Allowing legislation that dictates what you can carry, just opens the same door we're already heading down. Well, Uzi's are dangerous. Well, Beretta's look aggressive. Well, ...

Open and concealed carry should be a personal choice, not a provincial or federal one. More often than not, I'd probably wear a simple belt holster. It would be fun to carry a dropleg, though. A concealed would be good for certain occasions, too. Concealed also rubs off on those people who don't like guns. The criminals don't know who's carrying and they don't like variables, thereby benefiting everyone.

My $0.02.

[Boberama]

Here's some Ayoob Files for you. Accounts of firearms being used by police and civilians. Very entertaining reading.

Armed Citizen Rescue Shot: The Roy Aultman Incident
Running Gunfight: The Jim Morgan Incident
Lead and diamonds: the Richmond jewelry store shootout
Saving mom: the South bend incident
Barricaded cop-killer: the James Cantwell incident
One gun, no hands: the Marcus Young incident
An urban gunfighter: The lessons of Lance Thomas
"F you and your high powered rifle!" The Gary Fadden incident
New Year's Eve fireworks: the Ann Leybourne incident

Enjoy! Hope these convince any doubters out there.

[huntinstuff]

I voted I DONT KNOW. Here are my thoughts:

To clarify, Im not all for, nor am I all against CCW permits. I have no suggestions as to any qualifications one might need to get a CCW permit. I am all for getting rid of the gun registry, I am all for hunting with a handgun, I have no problem with large capacity magazines or barrel lengths etc etc. I believe people should defend themselves properly and yes, the police cannot be everywhere all the time. Most times, in the critical time period, you will be alone.

That said,


Let's say you have a CCW permit. You are heading down the street and you see a male pointing a gun at a young female at the rear of a business. The female is screaming something you can't really hear. The male is shouting back.

What do you do?

Scenario 1: The male is her boyfriend and has accused her of cheating and he is going to kill her.

You pull your gun. You kill the boyfriend. You go on trial and hopefully are able to articulate your thoughts. Your future is in the hands of a judge or jury. Maybe you are cleared, maybe you don't. Either way, there are screams for a review of the CCW laws.


Scenario 2: The male is a plainclothes policeman and the female has a gun in her waistband, that you haven't seen, and he is in the process of arresting her.


You pull your gun. The police officer sees this and engages you, he might shoot and kill you. You might shoot and kill the police officer in the execution of his duties. She might draw her gun and kill both of you.

Alternatively, you could have a CCW permit, see the above scenario in progress and walk by and do nothing. Let those chips fall where they may. You may have decided that your CCW permit is for your safety only. That is fine.


There are far too many people out there who would carry a gun for the "cool factor". That is dangerous. Those types carry for reasons of immaturity. Choosing to carry a gun is an additional responsibility that most people can't handle. There is no big thrill to carrying a concealed firearm, believe me. It truly isn't cool ..... I hear these guys at every gun show, every gun shop etc etc.....I get sick of it. They talk about what gun, holster, ammo, sights and NEVER have I EVER heard one person ever talk about the responsibility that goes with it. Those are they guys that the anti's use as examples, and it works for them.

If you had a CCW permit and could carry a gun, I wouldn't tell anyone about it, ever. Not even my family.

Im not saying there aren't people who couldn't do it responsibly. But it isn't what you might think......it's a lot of pressure and responsibility. That gun has to be secure on your person and you are in charge of it 24/7. Screw up and you will probably never legally handle a gun again, after you get out of the pen.


What I do know is how it feels to carry concealed. There is nothing cool about it at all.

[Piker]

I totally agree with Huntinstuff so I voted the same as he did. Piker

[Matt L.]

I voted I don't Know as well, for pretty much the same reasons as above. Very few people have the responsibility to handle it. What I would be in favour of is loosening up on th erestrictions to carry sidearms in the back-country.

[Scott N]

I guess like a few of the other guys, I'm in favor of CCW with some restrictions. I do have a few reservations of my own. Training would be important, as would a few strict regulations about carrying. I don't know a lot about CCW in the US, but I don't think you can carry in places where alcohol is served, etc. As far as I know though, most, if not all states that allow CCW have lower crime rates. To me that makes sense because I believe that the majority of criminals are cowards, and they won't prey on people that might actually defend themselves.

I would have fewer reservations about open carry, especially in wilderness settings. I firmly believe that I should have the right to carry my revolver while I'm out fishing in bear country, even in a park. I'm not hunting... the sole purpose for me to want to carry is to prevent me from turning into a pile of bear scat.

[dmckay]

I couldn't agree more than with huntinstuff. I know I could handle the responsibility, but have no idea how anyone else would handle it and that is truly scary. There would be way too many people carrying for the "cool" factor.

[Whiskey Wish]

I also totally agree with Huntinstuff so I voted No. Speaking from a personal perspective if I had been allowed to CCW in my lifetime there would have been a number of fewer dogs, a couple fewer horses and more than one fewer people.

Also speaking from a personal perspective. I think "you" would want to be careful what you say about Kannonfodder as you could find youself facing a number of angry members....myself included. He has likely faced more loaded weapons in his day than you will ever see in your lifetime. Just my opinion mind.....
The point of this forum is to create INTELLIGENT, OPEN MINDED, FAIR discussions about all sorts of topics. Personal attacks do NOTHING to encourage OR enlighten those discussions.

Keep Your Powder Dry,
Dave.

[Twisted Canuck]

I voted Yes, but my yes has a lot of strong provisos attached to it. Basically I think that Huntinstuff has the post of the day on the issue, as it seems like many of us completely agree with him. My thought is that their could be a provision for a CCW in Canada, but there would have to be a damn strong compelling reason for someone to need one before it was issued. Just wanting one wouldn't cut it, because a good number of the people who would want one are the same folks who shouldn't have one.

Its like the old saw: those most capable of exercising authority or holding positions of power, are those who want the position the least. Those least capable of exercising good authority, or handling power, are the same ones who strive after it the hardest.

[Matt L.]

Originally Posted by twisted canuck

Its like the old saw: those most capable of exercising authority or holding positions of power, are those who want the position the least. Those least capable of exercising good authority, or handling power, are the same ones who strive after it the hardest.

Pretty much sums it up right there.

[CaberTosser]

I threw in a "Yes". I concur with the CCW while under the influence idea, I'm sure this is likely covered in depth as a common sense rule in the States south of the 49th that allow CCW and require safety courses to be passed to obtain a permit. It would include drugs or prescription meds, call it CCW while impaired rather than merely CCW while over .08.

I would back criminal history checks and disallow any people with drug trafficking or violent crime histories. Some things such as white-collar type crimes (tax evasion for one example) might not warrant a CCW rejection in my opinion. I think CCW would be better than open carry, as it wouldn't upset the anti's because they wouldn't know who's armed. That would however upset the criminals. I think open carry in a hip holster or a drop leg might well have disadvantages; ie: some types trying to pickpocket the gun or swarm mug you just to get the firearm. If its outta site its more of a worry to the bad guys. Carry out in the open might give the bold ones or irrational junkies a target.

The scenario's noted by huntinstuff could well occur, but one must also think that a bit of communication would do wonders. Instead of shooting first and asking questions later you might yell something like "drop your weapon" to which the cop would likely identify him or herself. Being that its intended as a defensive tool you should also have the wits to be carrying a cell phone and call in such a situation prior to trying to intervene (noting thought that rapid event progression could well render that difficult to do). Nothing like a prudent action of calling 911 to back up your story should the feces hit the fan and you have to justify your actions later.

I think a thorough course on safe weapons handling, responsibilities and "common sense" would certainly be prudent. We have to pass driving tests when we undertake that responsibility, this should be no different. After all, I'm sure most of you can all think of a few people who have no place behind the wheel of a motor vehicle. The classic "accident waiting to happen".

A demerit point system could even be instituted.

I don't think we'll see it happen, but I'm behind it nonetheless.

[Ryry4]

I have a friend that just moved back to Arizona, one of the first things he did was pick up an XD9 and get his carry permit. It would be a great thing to see up here. I personally think that it should be law to carry and hand gun while hunting in bear country. How many times has someone been mauled in their tent while trying to load a rifle in the dark when a handgun would have done the trick? Too bad our socialist government doesn't see it that way.

[crazyfish]

wow, big responsibility, not sure all of us would be up to it ! I can definetly see some upsides to it ! But can also see alot of downsides, look at police officers who run amok and occasionally forget it in the trunk or something similar ! And they are trained far better than most of us would be ! Bet theres a bunch of bowhunters that would love the option of a side arm for predators !

Does anyone have any stats as to the percentage of people that actually have permits in states that allow it ? I truely consider myself a level headed smart person, but i'm still not sure if i would want that responsibility ! The scutiny that one goes thru right now to register guns etc , and the mess the registry is already ,......yikes it could only get worse !

[Winch101]

I am all for it " An armed society is a polite society "

I received an email questionong why it took so long for someone to show up with a gun at the army base mass murder awhile ago. Really the Bill CLintons
of the world have to be stopped , a moral compass with an overactive needle. If the criminals of the world are accessing firearms at the rate the
police would have you believe , than how many somewhat law bidding citizens
are already armed ?

With the implementation of concealed weapons permit , the castle law
should be brought in..Protect your property and familly at all costs ...

There is an old aramaic saying " If a man tells you what Gods will is for you
than leave him as quick as possible as he is a liar but worse yet , a leader "

In the states where you can carry a concealed weapon , what are the laws
surely there are prcedents set here ....

[sco22]

As soon as I saw this post I said to myself that I would vote no. Then I started reading some of the resposes, particularly the one calling out a "no" voter and thought I am surely going to get flamed. Here is my reasoning:

Ask yourself honestly how many times carrying a gun would have changed the outcome of any altercation you have personally been in (possibly a new thread here). Seriously. Although I am concerned about the escalation of violence in our society, the seemingly endless failings of our courts to adequately protect the rights of the victim and the wanton disregard there seems to be for hurting people (anyone see the news today about the junior hockey player in Leduc?).

I look at all of the incidents that were that major; that scary that I feared for my life and there really aren't many. Maybe I am lucky. Maybe if I had more experiences or lived in a "bad part" of Edmonton, or on a farm that was routinely burglarized perhaps, just perhaps I would angry, scared and concerned enough to want to carry a concealed weapon. For me? I just don't agree. Add to this the escalation factor that an argument at a set of lights, for example, that legalized concealed weapons could bring.

My brother lives in Jackson Mississippi and has lived in West Virginia and Maryland as well. He is an avid hunter and owns more guns than me (I only have 3). The stories I have heard from him regarding guns, many of which could be illegally concealed or owned, have made me happy to live where I do.

It is just my opinion. . .

Cheers.

[Okotokian]

I don't think it's necessary. Also a little concerned about road rage and bar fights. I'd say no.

[CaberTosser]

I have to agree with WhiskeyWish that it was in poor taste for Boberama to have noted Kannonfodders vote. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, even when it diverges from what others of us may believe. Everyones life experiences are different and are significant in forming our perspectives. If a person wishes to divulge their vote personally, so be it, but I think its up to THAT PERSON whether or not to make it public. I noted mine, but I would be miffed if I was "outed" against my consent.

I think Boberama owes Kannon an apology.

That being said, I think the detractors here might be less inclined towards focusing on the worst case scenarios that can be dreamed up if they were to closely look at statistics from states that do issue CCW and have thousands of citizens who do so every day. The sky has neither fallen there nor is there wholesale bloodshed in the streets. There are however a bunch of people who are that much more free and less likely to be victimized or to allow others to be victimized.

Lets face it, each of us evey day leaves the house with potentially lethal instruments of some form; from our bare hands to our motor vehicles, its what we do with those same things that indicates our moral fibre or lack thereof.

As for the road rage and bar fight scenarios: A person shouldn't carry in a bar or anytime they would be drinking or otherwise impaired. The road rage part is valid, but again, falling to training on the responsibilities of carrying, one would be trained to ask onesself if it was worth elevating the issue to a potentially lethal situation. Maturity level above all else. I'm not saying all possess it, but it can be assisted by training. People who do CCW in the States have noted they will actually go further to avoid some potential situations, disagreements and confrontations simply because they are carrying a handgun. That to me speaks of maturity, and would in itself contribute to less escalations of violence or threats of violence.

[stinkynuts]

YES just look at Texas no one messes around there cuse everyone carrys a side arm nad where do you think the saying don't mess with Texas came from i say we need a saying don't mess with ALBERTA !!!!

[FishBrain]

I voted IDK, simply because if it was to come tolight here in Canada, I would need to know the full regulations concerning what is involved on how they determine who gets to be allowed and who does not.

[FishBrain]

Originally Posted by stinkynuts

YES just look at Texas no one messes around there cuse everyone carrys a side arm nad where do you think the saying don't mess with Texas came from i say we need a saying don't mess with ALBERTA !!!!

Dont mess with texas comes from litter. It is their slogan to stop litterbugs. My buddy has a shirt sent from his uncle there and it shows the state picture and a garbage can

[noneck180]

NO

[Ryry4]

Originally Posted by Winch101

I am all for it " An armed society is a polite society "

I received an email questionong why it took so long for someone to show up with a gun at the army base mass murder awhile ago. Really the Bill CLintons
of the world have to be stopped , a moral compass with an overactive needle. If the criminals of the world are accessing firearms at the rate the
police would have you believe , than how many somewhat law bidding citizens
are already armed ?

With the implementation of concealed weapons permit , the castle law
should be brought in..Protect your property and familly at all costs ...

There is an old aramaic saying " If a man tells you what Gods will is for you
than leave him as quick as possible as he is a liar but worse yet , a leader "

In the states where you can carry a concealed weapon , what are the laws
surely there are prcedents set here ....

I couldn't agree more. I've been in the states where you can legally carry a handgun and have never felt safer in public. The reason is just what you said an armed society is a polite society. I had a guy step on my shoes in a bar and Vegas on night and he took a step back looked me in the face and apologized sincerely. I've never had that happen in Lethbridge. Most of the time there someone shoves you, spills a drink on you and thinks it's your fault.