8 Year old shoots self in head at gun show with Uzi

[Albertadiver]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/10/27/boy.shoots.himself.ap/index.html

WESTFIELD, Massachusetts (AP) -- An 8-year-old boy died after accidentally shooting himself in the head while firing an Uzi submachine gun under adult supervision at a gun fair.


An 8-year-old shot and killed himself with an Uzi submachine gun like the weapon shown here.

The boy lost control of the weapon while firing it Sunday at the Machine Gun Shoot and Firearms Expo at the Westfield Sportsman's Club, Police Lt. Lawrence Valliere said.

The boy was with a certified instructor and "was shooting the weapon down range when the force of the weapon made it travel up and back toward his head, where he suffered the injury," a police statement said. Police called it a "self-inflicted accidental shooting."

The victim was taken to Baystate Medical Center where he died. His name was not released.

Although the death appears to be an accident, police and the Hampden district attorney's office were investigating, officials said.

The club said on its Web site that the event, run in conjunction with C.O.P Firearms and Training, is "all legal and fun." People will be allowed to fire weapons at vehicles, pumpkins and other targets, it said.

Officials with the private club and the firearms group could not be reached for comment. A message left on a club answering machine was not returned. The C.O.P. group's machine clicked off without taking a message.

The sportsman's club was founded in 1949 and describes itself on its Web site as an organization that promotes "the interest of legal sport with rod, gun, and bow and arrow, both directly and through training."

It has eight firing ranges as well as archery and fishing facilities located on 375 acres in Westfield, about 100 miles west of Boston.


*********

Who in thier right mind would let an 8yr old shoot an UZI? Yet another reason why those who own or use firearms are painted in a bad light. Horrible

[Walleyes]

There is so much wrong with this I won't even touch it !!!!

Its just to bad when young ones have to pay for the stupidity of elders... All I can say is WTF.

[jasonburrows]

Gotta wonder about those yanks sometimes, 8 year old? UZI 9mm?????
Certified instructor at 8 years old???????????????????????? WTF!

[Eyeswideshut]

Its such a tragedy when these types of things happen,

[Jamie]

You know, I have my son starting to shoot right now.
Its one bullet in the gun. (the rest are in my pocket!)If the good folks who put on this demonstration would have had that rule (For the little guys) this would not have been a problem.
Once again this was not the guns fault.. I would wrap it up to improper supervision by both the parents and the instructors.

My god what a way to lose a child, or to have that happen in your presence.

I am not sure if I could go on if something like that happened.

Jamie

[sparky660]

As much as some of us complain about gun regulations(me included) it shows that in some circumsatnces strict laws can save lives. An 8 year old shooting a fully automatic is just plain stupidity.

[alacringa]

The club said on its Web site that the event, run in conjunction with C.O.P Firearms and Training, is "all legal and fun."

What a freakin' comment to make. Not only do we give an eight-year old kid an uzi, but it's "all fun" when he dies from injuries sustained while firing it?
This kind of poop infuriates me.

[Kutenay]

This kind of thing is WHY I, for one, and after 50+ years of shooting, a great deal of "professional training" and several accidental discharges WITHOUT any injuries or serious property damage, am quite concerned about the recent and growing fascination with "black guns" among so many younger and novice shooters.

The gunstore in Vancouver, where I have been a VERY active customer for over 25 yrs., has become SO "black gun" oriented that I no longer feel comfortable there and now am taking my business elsewhere. I have seen dangerous and deliberate mishandling of pistols by staff there and am not interested in getting shot.

The problem is, IMHO, due to a weak society in which "freedom" and irresponsiblity are mistaken for each other and the mass media is allowed to make huge profits by depicting misuse of guns while continually slagging hunting. The whole concept of wanting to own guns made only for killing other humans while not owning even ONE hunting gun is simply foreign to me.....and is only too common here in Vancouver, especially among certain ethno-cultural groups.

I was allowed to start shooting at age 12, in the Junior Sportsman Programme at my junior high, imagine that NOW, also in RCSCC Hampton Grey, VC, DSC. and with one of myn uncles on our property. He was a RCN vet of WWII, served in four invasions as an Oerlikon gunner aboard HMCS Prince David and know how to handle a gun.

I honestly would NOT start a kid shooting until he is 12 and would also use the one cartridge per time rule. But, what is "cool" usually wins in contemporary society and thus we see tragedies like this. Wonder what Wendie will have to say about this?

[gitrdun]

Too stupid.....no comment :D

[Elk Hunter 55]

Gentlemen,

While this incident is tragic, it should also be noted that the only reason that it got national or international attention was because it is inherently an anti-gun story.

You will never hear any pro-gun story from the liberal media, ever. :mad3:

While it's not fair, we gun owners must go out of our way to show that we are responsible citizens and try to prevent this kind of tragedy in the future.

Elk Hunter

[jasonburrows]

My boy is 7 and just got his first 22, single shot Crickett, one shot at a time, bullets in my pocket, the lockout button (key required) pushed the minute done shooting, me by his side coaching proper handling and safety practices the whole time, I don't walk away until the gun is locked out, it is amazing how fast he picked up on safe gun handling and really "grows up" the minute he gets his hands on the rifle, and actually a pretty good shot, got his first (squirrell a couple weeks back. There is no way I would let him take it out alone for a few years yet, Some kids "Mature" alot faster than others but how much could that poor kid have learned being one year older than my son? UNBELEAVABLE someone would let an 8 year old fire an UZI, I fired one when I was 16 and could barely hold onto it.

[Jester]

This is just a freak accident and I grieve for the parents,they must be going through hell right now...:(

[rugatika]

While I feel terrible for the parents and family and the child, this kid should in no way have been shooting an Uzi. Just not sure what the hell this parent was thinking. Not an exclusive problem to the gun community though...how many times have we heard about 8 year olds getting killed on quads?

I guess it;s hard for parents to say no to their kids or something these days. Is it any wonder we are getting more and more of our freedoms taken away when so many people so flagrantly disregard (as Kutenay pointed out) the responsibility part of the equation. Freedom and responsibility go hand in hand. Too bad the responsible people have to have their freedoms taken away because of the actions of the people that cannot comprehend the possible (or even likely) consequences of their lack of responsibility.

No worries...if Obama gets in I don't think we'll have to worry about gun problems in the states anymore.

[wollybugger]

wow my wife was pi$$ed when I got my boy (8yrs old) a pelet gun . cant imagine how those pepole feel, so sad

[huntinstuff]

Gentlemen,

While this incident is tragic, it should also be noted that the only reason that it got national or international attention was because it is inherently an anti-gun story.

You will never hear any pro-gun story from the liberal media, ever. :mad3:

While it's not fair, we gun owners must go out of our way to show that we are responsible citizens and try to prevent this kind of tragedy in the future.

Elk Hunter

x10.................

[Walleyes]

Gentlemen,

While this incident is tragic, it should also be noted that the only reason that it got national or international attention was because it is inherently an anti-gun story.

You will never hear any pro-gun story from the liberal media, ever. :mad3:

While it's not fair, we gun owners must go out of our way to show that we are responsible citizens and try to prevent this kind of tragedy in the future.

Elk Hunter


Well first of all yes there is all kinds of positive storys out there,i.e. hunting
magazines, gun magazines, wild t.v., outdoor shows on national channels and the such so its not all negative other people than just us wacth these shows.

As far as these people getting any positive coverage,, sorry they don't deserve it not even close. As a fact they should pull any licenese's they have and the instructor's should be charged with negligence !!!!

[Rusty P. Bucket]

Bah.

Idiots kill themselves and their kids in cars every day and nobody blinks an eye. The only reason this one got any press is because a gun was involved, and liberals are afraid of guns, especially the scary looking sport-utility guns.

Look for the usual suspects to spin this as some kind of earth shattering calamity and hype the tar out of it to sell copy. Get a bloody grip, people.
:mad2:

[Albertahog]

IT is truely a sad accident and from the way i read it it's just that a accident do you think for one min.That anyone could of forseen what was going to happen "I THINK NOT" not even the certified instructor or the parent that must of gave consent to shoot the gun but it dosent say that in the story.If they Knew it was going to happen they would of stoped it wouldnt you think.

It is a legal event from what i read it is unfortunate what happen maybe its time time rethink the age where one can pick up a gun and shoot it in event's like that yahh i am sure they would tell me where to go with a idea like that u.s.a has there own laws like it or not.
I for one dont like the idea of 12 year olds hunting here in alberta just a little to young for me just my 2 cent.
Yes i know you do gooders teaching your kid's with your ,single shot ,bb gun etc.saying it wont happen to your kid-kids truth is accident's happen i dont care where you live .

[Walleyes]

IT is truely a sad accident and from the way i read it it's just that a accident do you think for one min.That anyone could of forseen what was going to happen "I THINK NOT" not even the certified instructor or the parent that must of gave consent to shoot the gun but it dosent say that .If they Knew it was going to happen they would of stoped it wouldnt you think.



No, no, no this is so far from being an accident it ain't even funny.. First of all most accidents are preventable this one is so preventable,, this my freinds is negligence in the first degree !!!!

[Rigg dogg]

Alberta Hog, you don't like the idea of a 12yr old hunting but you think it's OK for an 8yr old to shoot an Uzi???
Any 12 yr old that is out hunting is going to be under adult supervision as well.

[Okotokian]

My boy is 7... There is no way I would let him take it out alone for a few years yet,.

Uh, for about another 5 years, no? Needs at least a Minor's licence.
Actually, I was surprised that the Firarms act doesn't mention any required supervision for a kid with a Minor's Licence. Is that correct?

[300 wsm]

8 yrs old shooting a uzi with more than one shot in it ******ed poor guy WTF is wrong with people thats just not safe

[Pioneer2]

Anyone remember the AB kid that shot his dad's .44 mag DA revolver for the first and last time? Fully loaded cylinder to top it off.First round at the target second round inadvertantly fires under the chin during recoil.Totally avoidable with a little common sense.......................Sad deal all the way around...................Harold

[Battery]

Uh, for about another 5 years, no? Needs at least a Minor's licence.
Actually, I was surprised that the Firarms act doesn't mention any required supervision for a kid with a Minor's Licence. Is that correct?


i think i know what you mean and if i answer wrong to this i apologize. But any 12 year old with a minor FAC must be within communication distance (being able to hear the adult CLEARLY not just mumbles) of the adult with the FAC at any time while hunting, now if the 12 year old didnt have the FAC then he must be withtin arms length of the adult who has the FAC.

And this story is tragic, but do they really think an 8 year old can handle a machine gun? thats rediculous, they shoulda started him on a pistol and seen how much recoil that has before they go on to a machine gun thats obviously going to recoil if you hold the trigger. Some adults are so stupid, im only 18 and i would of walked out of that gun show seeing an 8 year old shoot an uzi. People need to learn to be more responsible.

[Okotokian]

i think i know what you mean and if i answer wrong to this i apologize. But any 12 year old with a minor FAC must be within communication distance (being able to hear the adult CLEARLY not just mumbles) of the adult with the FAC at any time while hunting, now if the 12 year old didnt have the FAC then he must be withtin arms length of the adult who has the FAC.
.

Not sure about that one. I've found nothing in the act or the fact sheet about supervision of a minor (12 or over) with a Minor's Licence. Here is what the fact sheet says about kids who DON'T have a Minor's Licence:

"Without a minor’s licence, the minor may still use firearms of any class providing they are under the direct and immediate supervision of someone who is licensed to possess that class of firearm. This generally means that the licensed person must be close enough to them to take immediate action to prevent any unsafe or illegal use of the firearm."
So even then "arms length" isn't specifically cited (and we have had discussions of what this means on this board).

The fact sheet says minors with a licence can "borrow firearms" (because they can't be registered to them) and even acquire ammunition. That sounds like being on your own to me. Now it DOES say that the firearms officer "MAY" put conditions of supervision on the licence, but it doesn't say they have to.

[Battery]

hmm well i took my FAC course this summer and according to the instructors and the fish and wildlife guy who came in, it said all minors with a license can be within communication distance until they are 18, and all minors without one must be one arms length away, i could be wrong though thats just what i was told while taking the course, even when i took my hunters training i was told this too. but again i could be wrong and i would go by what is written rather than what i have heard too so i dont know.

[tth_12032]

I am not sure I disagree with a law allowing kids to shoot firearms because as many of you fathers pointed out, with strict supervision and instruction it teaches youth about responsibility and discipline. A childs ability will vary so the instructor needs to start small with the kid and work their way up, no "here's an uzi, give er a try". But from this story we can't really tell what happened. We need to put many precautions in place but there also has to be a line drawn, the ultimate precaution would be eliminate all guns, right? And I am not going there...

My thoughts are with this 8 yr old boy's family.

[Jeromeo]

Wow, got to love the mentality of some of those americans. An 8 year old is a grade 3 student. That's a small child. WTF is a child doing shooting a centrefire rifle period?? Get him shooting some rimfire first. Plain stupidity on the parents fault.
Unfortunately, in this day in age, there is no survival of the fittest so we are left with millions of morons walking the planet.:mad2:

[Albertahog]

No, no, no this is so far from being an accident it ain't even funny.. First of all most accidents are preventable this one is so preventable,, this my freinds is negligence in the first degree !!!!negligence in the first degree !!!! for what not forseeing into the future and yes as you put it "MOST ACCIDENTS ARE PREVENTABLE" How do you pick them :rolleyes:and this little story isnt telling the rest of the story i am sure

Alberta Hog, you don't like the idea of a 12yr old hunting but you think it's OK for an 8yr old to shoot an Uzi???
Any 12 yr old that is out hunting is going to be under adult supervision as well. rigg Dogg no i dont like the idea a 12yr old hunting with a gun dont take it personal they still can hunt and no i dont think its ok for a 8 yr old to shoot a uzi never say it was ok give your head a shake :mad:{ well you say any 12yr old that is out hunting is going to be under adult supervision }

Fact is i am sure this 8 yr old had supervision and yet a accident happen sad story but cant be helped no matter what we say or do it will not bring back the little 8 yr old.my 2 cent:wave:

[Walleyes]

negligence in the first degree !!!! for what not forseeing into the future and yes as you put it "MOST ACCIDENTS ARE PREVENTABLE" How do you pick them and this little story isnt telling the rest of the story i am sure

So you honestly can't see where the negligence is in this situation ??? that worries me big time !!!! And yah I got no problem picking the preventable accidents from the not preventable ones,, its not really that difficult of a task.. As far as not knowing the whole story,, there's not much else to know,, an uzi was placed in the hands of an 8 year old,, thats "wrong" END OF STORY...

[Rigg dogg]

mm

[FisherPotch]

an Uzi was placed in the hands of an 8 year old,, thats "wrong" END OF STORY...


X2 that purdy much sums up the negligence right there. You would have to be a ******* idiot to think an Uzi has anyplace in the hands of an 8 year old. my 2 cent :wave: :evilgrin:.

I put all fault at whomever put the gun in the kids hands. Too bad it was the kid whom suffered from that person’s negligence. My condolences to the family.

[Albertahog]

So you honestly can't see where the negligence is in this situation ??? that worries me big time !!!! And yah I got no problem picking the preventable accidents from the not preventable ones,, its not really that difficult of a task.. As far as not knowing the whole story,, there's not much else to know,, an uzi was placed in the hands of an 8 year old,, thats "wrong" END OF STORY...

YAH ok Walleyes what ever you see it your way i see it mine .You seem to know so much :o my question is how my other young kid's at that "legal shoot" shot that gun or any gun for that matter befor that sad incident.

And yah I got no problem picking the preventable accidents from the not preventable ones,, its not really that difficult of a task..WOW I GUESS THAT MAKES YOU SPECIAL GOOD LUCK WITH THAT.:ashamed::rolleyes:

[Okotokian]

Bah.

Idiots kill themselves and their kids in cars every day and nobody blinks an eye. The only reason this one got any press is because a gun was involved, and liberals are afraid of guns, especially the scary looking sport-utility guns.

Look for the usual suspects to spin this as some kind of earth shattering calamity and hype the tar out of it to sell copy. Get a bloody grip, people.
:mad2:

Oh please. When a local kid gets killed in an auto accident I read about that in the local press too. And there have been a zillion instances of government regulation to stop those sorts of deaths... seatbelt legislation, crash worthiness, airbags, speed limits, newly proposed legislation on cell phone use, safer road construction, licences and graduated licences... they even have a... gasp... car registry ;)

There are plenty of gun deaths that never get more than a few lines of print outside the local paper. This one is just so tragic, preventable, and stupid to even the untrained eye that it gets some national play. I think that if a father let his 8 year old drive the car and it resulted in a fatal crash that would be getting some news play as well.

This instance and the various WEM gunrange shootings just shows how useless the claim of "qualified supervision" is if they don't exercise proper judgement. If the shooter is physically or mentally incompetent to handle the weapon (8 year old with automatic weapon), careless, or has ill-intent, no amount supervision is likely to save the day.

[Walleyes]

YAH ok Walleyes what ever you see it your way i see it mine .You seem to know so much :o my question is how my other young kid's at that "legal shoot" shot that gun or any gun for that matter befor that sad incident.

WOW I GUESS THAT MAKES YOU SPECIAL GOOD LUCK WITH THAT.:ashamed::rolleyes:


No I'm not special at all A.B.hog I just have no problem seeing the obvious,, to bad you have to turn this into another personel attack thread,, but that is your style,, this thread is done for me,,, thx A.B.hog...

[uglyelk2]

Well looks like the State is investigating charges.

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hl-VtQImXVuBfNXTpNMvOgFOxj2wD943T5LG1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8p5eAZ7b5AY&feature=related

This is a tragic event. Feel sorry for all who knew the lad.


I’m surprised at the feeding frenzy most are having over this. Everyone is quick to play Monday morning quarterback on this site. Guess I will too!

An uzi is a pea shooter. It has little recoil.

I don’t think many of us would claim a 9mm kicks.

The action of a full auto machine pistol absorbs much of the recoil. Just like semi auto rifles the recycling of gasses to work the action reduces the full recoil of the round being discharged.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6BV8P0nNas&feature=related

Yup they still push back and the muzzle jumps. Look there is a small child shooting one in the video and he doesn’t kill himself. Maybe someone taught him how to hold it? Go figure! I suspect the child died at the range because he was not properly instructed. Therewill be lawsuits over this.

The anti’s will have a field day with this.

[uglyelk2]

Would I let my son fire one at 8?

No way he was two small and immature.

By 10, I wouldn't have had a problem with it, he had put on some weight and he had already proven he could handle the .45 competently.

[Okotokian]

An uzi is a pea shooter. It has little recoil.

I don’t think many of us would claim a 9mm kicks.

.

Well for you or me, yes. Obviously not for the 8 year old in question.

A gun-savvy parent may well know their kid's capabilities and train him competently over time. Someone at a gun show or gun range has no idea about the person into who's hands he's putting a lethal weapon. It's just nuts to do so, a total gamble.

[2430M]

An uzi is a pea shooter. It has little recoil.


How many full auto's have you shot? I shoot one about 3 times a year when I'm at the DFW Gun Range. The only auto I find that "rises" faster than an uzi is the Thompson. I will admit the first time I shot one I was glad the range officer was behind me with his hand on my shoulder. More rise than I ever would have imagined!!!


As far as the age of the kid, I will leave that to his parents to deal/live with. Not my call at all. but I have been on a shooting line with some youngster before, a bit scary.

[Albertahog]

No I'm not special at all A.B.hog I just have no problem seeing the obvious,, to bad you have to turn this into another personel attack thread,, but that is your style,, this thread is done for me,,, thx A.B.hog...
another personal attack thread thats a easy way out :cry::confused :you should look at yout own style frist and your welcome This thread is done for me also.

[Jeromeo]

An uzi is a pea shooter. It has little recoil.

I don’t think many of us would claim a 9mm kicks.

The action of a full auto machine pistol absorbs much of the recoil. Just like semi auto rifles the recycling of gasses to work the action reduces the full recoil of the round being discharged.


I'm sorry when was the last time you shot a 9mm or an uzi for that matter? They do kick. It's not exactly a rimfire but it does have recoil. Go fire one and keep in mind this child was probably 50 lbs.

[uglyelk2]

I find these forums very informative but I don’t post a lot because of all the keyboard commandos starting flame wars. This is a discussion forum, we offer our opinion. Take it or leave it, offer a response but don’t get personal….Think that’s how things are supposed to work in most of these internet forums. But they rarely do.


So on this thread I get a couple of interesting responses.

How many full auto's have you shot?

I kind of ignored this as I took it as a rhetorical question. Surely you intended it this way other wise your challenging my level of experience on the topic. I’ve claimed no expertise but it’s still kind of rude mate. It’s like saying you don’t know what the “f” you talking about. Not a very productive method of attempting to engage someone in discussion.

It may be more effective to explain what you disagree with and offer a counter point.

However it appears I’m getting a similar response in another post so I’ll answer your question, 2430M.

I’ve not had a heck of a lot of trigger time on full autos in the grand scheme of things.

First one was a 30 inch gun mounted on a Centurion tank. I guess that doesn’t count because they were mounted on 51 tons of steel…there was zero recoil.

Spent a few years shooting 9 mm sterling smg’s in the military.

Humped the FNC2 farther than any man should and I don’t miss having all those rounds hanging off my chest.

After I left the military there were some sks rifles modified to full auto that I played with. Poor mans AK, trick is to score the banana clips and drum mags. (And no I do not own any illegal weapons nor do promote it)


And there was a day with my buddies GAP.

So yes as you suspect not a lot of experience, But after x number of years and well over 10,000 rounds on automatic weapons ( nothing really because they add up quick) I feel rather comfortable saying 9mm smg’s are pop guns. (My experience / option)

So 2430M take my opinion with a grain of salt, I’m claiming no expert status here!






As far as the age of the kid, I will leave that to his parents to deal/live with. Not my call at all. But I have been on a shooting line with some youngster before, a bit scary. I agree, I think it’s the parent’s call. And I’ve been on the range with some adult military types who have scared the crap out of me. Bottom line is if we hand someone a firearm we have a responsibility to ensure they handle it correctly.


I'm sorry when was the last time you shot a 9mm or an uzi for that matter? They do kick. It's not exactly a rimfire but it does have recoil. Go fire one and keep in mind this child was probably 50 lbs.You are a sorry something dude! Just hacking on yeah Billy! When was the last time I shot 9mm….it’s been a while.

1) it’s hunting season the sidearms are on the back burner.

2) I have little value for the 9mm my wee son and 95 lb wife burn most of them off.

Long story short , It’s been about 3 weeks, put about 250 rounds down range. But spend most of my small arms time of the 40 or the 357 but I still remember what the wee ones feel like Jeromeo. I also remember what they feel like coming put of the barrel of a sub machine gun. Is that okay ?

Fifty pound eight year olds…Hmmm my kids just turned 13 and 16…But I think my 13 year old son was a wee bit larger than 50 pounds at 8. He’s 165 at the moment. Think he was 85 pounds in grade three.. Either your blowing smoke under our kilt about child weights…or your clan is polluting the gene pool. Babies are 8-10 pounds at birth, if they are only 5 babies large at eight years…I suspect they will not make it. Babies need to grow to survive. Your entire species might not make it…and that might be a good thing. With the rest of the humanoid species getting significantly larger I’m not sure if there’s a nitch wee folks…they didn’t make it in Ireland , I suspect they won’t make it here either!


Back to the debate,

Can a wee lad shoot a 9mmm uzi…absolutely if someone trained him. JMHO But hell I wouldn’t turn the poor little bugger out in the back yard with the mower without some proper direction either.

Why did this kid die…he was a kid without supervision. A never ever…pop ran for the camera and his instructor from the rental company was a 16 year old kid. Yeah let’s let kids teach kids how to shoot. Bet you he got all kinds of details before he died!


The original story showed a picture of a full size uzi. Definitely easier to control than the micro Uzi the kid died with.

Machine pistols…like GAP’ Micro Uzi’s are a waste of lead I my opinion….very hard to control…..smg’s…more controllable but still just produce a lead curtain that might hit something. Bottom line, they are not 22’s they are not center fire rifles. They are firearms and their fore dangerous if those handling then have not been trained in their use..

What blows my mind is the reponse this story receives on these forums. It’s very different than the response on uzi forums.

The uzi guys are pondering what was wrong with the RSO on site and the training. The Alberta outdoorsman forums sound like a bunch of anti gun nuts from Toronto. Man bad nature good….machine gun bad hunter good. The liberal machine has been far more effective selling their dogma than any of us suspected.

[Albertadiver]

Well, I started this thread because I was saddened by the death of an eight year old child.

Nonetheless, it seems to spiral into a thread of personal insults. If the one who had started the thread had the ability to close it I would be doing that.

Folks made points, issues were discussed, why do people on the internet always have to be in the right? (Don't answer that, I'm hoping this thread just falls off into the archives...)

[Bang Drop]

I won't bother quoting UglyElk2's post since that would make this one rather long, but in essence I agree with you.

The fact remains that any firearm, regardless of size, regardless of whether it is one shot or 10, regardless of whether it is fully automatic or not, is inherently dangerous in the hands of an 8 year old child. Proper training and supervision is required for anyone that age.

Kutenay wrote:
This kind of thing is WHY I, for one, and after 50+ years of shooting, a great deal of "professional training" and several accidental discharges WITHOUT any injuries or serious property damage, am quite concerned about the recent and growing fascination with "black guns" among so many younger and novice shooters.


The funny thing is, many of those so-called black guns have the identical action to them as hunting rifles, shoot the same calibers, etc. In some cases the gun is actually identical to a hunting rifle but has been painted black and had a larger capacity (pinned), curved magazine inserted into them. There is no difference in what a "black" gun can do versus a hunting rifle. They can only have 5 rounds like a hunting rifle, they may be pump, bolt, or semi-auto just like a hunting rifle. The only difference is how they look.

If the government alllowed so called "black guns" to be used for hunting, which for the record they could very ligitimately be used, there wouldn't be an issue. Just because the government and media would have you believe that a "black gun" is more evil than any other gun that doesn't mean you have to swallow that garbage. Believing that just starts you down the slippery slope to allowing more and more types of guns to be banned until your single shot cooey is gone too.

I honestly would NOT start a kid shooting until he is 12 and would also use the one cartridge per time rule. But, what is "cool" usually wins in contemporary society and thus we see tragedies like this. Wonder what Wendie will have to say about this?

I shoot competitively against several 12 year olds. They are safer at handling guns than many of the middle-aged and older gentleman who compete. They're also already a better shot than most. While there are many 12 year olds I would not let handle a gun, there are also many who are mature and responsible enough that I would have zero issue with it. It all comes down to proper training and supervision.

For the record, in regards to the 8 year old who was killed - his father was a moron for letting his kid try it and his kid paid the ultimate price. That has nothing to do with the gun, gun laws, or whether it was a black gun or a hunting gun. Unfortunately we can't ban stupidity.

[The Bit Runner.]

All i can say is WOW,What happened to kids learning how to shoot a 22 first
one bullet at a time.This story is very disturbing.