There were 200 plus onsite fatalities in Alberta last year

[drhu22]

Originally Posted by mtnluvr

Things are getting to the point that "safety" has nothing to do with safety at all. "Safety" programs have become a way for employers and big business to limit liability. I own a trucking company with under 20 employees and I just finished revising my safety program so I could work "safely" under a lot of the big corporations. My manual went from about 35 pages of actual pertinent information to over 200 pages of excruciatingly dry reading. Policies on everything from where to put litter to how to safely inspect and climb a ladder. Sorry guys but the safety aspect of these programs is ancient history.

I've always suspected that was the case... I see safety rules
'relaxed' routinely.

[mtnluvr]

Sureshot, it is great to hear from a safety man that has real world, hands on experience. I am sure you are able to get the respect of your co workers because you can see the tangible applications of your policies and identify risks based on your experience. What makes me cringe is the issues that I must address to qualify for COR, Complyworks, PICS, ISN and whatever revolutionary safety program pops up next. I am all for hazard assessments, tailgate meetings and anything that actually facilitates an environment where my guys come home every night but it is becoming a cash grab wherein safety has simply become big business. Notice the first blank you must fill in to qualify for these safety programs is the credit card info.

[sureshot]

Originally Posted by mtnluvr

Sureshot, it is great to hear from a safety man that has real world, hands on experience. I am sure you are able to get the respect of your co workers because you can see the tangible applications of your policies and identify risks based on your experience. What makes me cringe is the issues that I must address to qualify for COR, Complyworks, PICS, ISN and whatever revolutionary safety program pops up next. I am all for hazard assessments, tailgate meetings and anything that actually facilitates an environment where my guys come home every night but it is becoming a cash grab wherein safety has simply become big business. Notice the first blank you must fill in to qualify for these safety programs is the credit card info.

Yeah it's crazy all the paperwork we have to do, most of it could be done away with. As regards to COR that's all it is, do you have that paperwork do you have this paperwork. I agree it's becoming a big cash grab. I had to put a safety pre- qual pakage together for shell it filled a whole 4" binder, it was stupid. When I was doing my courses for my NCSO I just shook my head at some of these people that were going into safety, I sure wouldn't of wanted them as my safety officer.

[diggerrigger]

Last year I was in a good safety mtg where we looks at all the names of those who had passed from workplace [WCB ] related deaths . the 200 you see is tragic but more than 75% of the deaths listed are related to chemical exposure and those that have died are in their 60s to 80s . Work related _ yes but not what you would initially think .

[sinawalli]

Originally Posted by petew

We have a lot in common. I also have worked this country east to west, north to south and overseas. I spent many years with a white hat in senior management positions. But those were the days when a supers hand shake was as good as gold, and honour was abundant. The safety guy was the working man's friend, not his enemy trying to take his families pay cheque away on a stupid power trip.
Today I often wonder what would happen if these safety guys were injured. Would the crew run to help, or turn their back and walk away and pretend they never saw or heard anything. If these same people went off the road on the way home , would the guys stop to help, or pretend they didn't know who it was.
I know the answer .

Exactly! I know the answer too, and I bet it's the same as yours!

[rugatika]

The SAFETY-Industrial complex is out of control. When I have to worry about some schmo from the government fining me for not wearing a hard hat when I'm walking across a field in the prairie or a cutline in the bush...things have gone toooo far.

This is the same thing we have seen in so many other fields, when a new "division" or "occupation" is created or flooded. Human Resources, accounting, law, safety etc. They insert themselves into the corporate world and start demanding/making regulations that ensure they and all their cohorts have work for the next 300 years. BahHumbug!

The really terrible thing is the big companies are OK with it because they know it puts the squeeze on the little guy to compete with them when they have to have their own safety divisions. It's easy for a company with 3000 employees to hire a safety guy, come up with a program etc, but when you want to go from 9 to 12 employees it can be a real pain.

[sikwhiskey]

Originally Posted by rugatika

The SAFETY-Industrial complex is out of control. When I have to worry about some schmo from the government fining me for not wearing a hard hat when I'm walking across a field in the prairie or a cutline in the bush...things have gone toooo far.

This is the same thing we have seen in so many other fields, when a new "division" or "occupation" is created or flooded. Human Resources, accounting, law, safety etc. They insert themselves into the corporate world and start demanding/making regulations that ensure they and all their cohorts have work for the next 300 years. BahHumbug!

The really terrible thing is the big companies are OK with it because they know it puts the squeeze on the little guy to compete with them when they have to have their own safety divisions. It's easy for a company with 3000 employees to hire a safety guy, come up with a program etc, but when you want to go from 9 to 12 employees it can be a real pain.

Same thing with fire retarded coveralls. I have to wear Poisoned clothing for fear of getting burned?....... Fire Retardent agents's are bad, very bad for people's health...........how many lives have they saved? None, the Safety Companies making this crap have made very large profits in Canada on the fear mongering / its for your own good BS. Mean while how much toxic crap gets introdced into our body's, water and food supply? Not only is it in our clothing, but bedding, furniture, construction materials. Absolute insanity.
Here is a post I started awhile ago........didnt get a single reply.
http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=201962

[sureshot]

Originally Posted by sinawalli

Exactly! I know the answer too, and I bet it's the same as yours!

You obviously didn't read my post.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by rugatika

Just my opinion, but I think people are too rushed. Big push from up top to make sure all the safety paperwork is filled out, "...but hurry up, we got X amount of work to do and only Y amount of time."

Might be, but I suspect part of the problem is that with such growth and a push to find staff, we have many employees with less experience or even qualifications than in the past. Gone are the days when 90% of the crew are experienced long-timers who know what they're doing, have seen pretty much every situation, and look out for each other. In our company most of the work groups that have been together for many years have the lowest incident rates.

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

Might be, but I suspect part of the problem is that with such growth and a push to find staff, we have many employees with less experience or even qualifications than in the past. Gone are the days when 90% of the crew are experienced long-timers who know what they're doing, have seen pretty much every situation, and look out for each other. In our company most of the work groups that have been together for many years have the lowest incident rates.

True enough, lots of green guys running around, and I suspect lots of people have gotten hired because they could spell their name. (or close enough)

[Roughneck12]

I would like to apologize for my post. When I read the title for some reason I thought it was about driving.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by Roughneck12

I would like to apologize for my post. When I read the title for some reason I thought it was about driving.

Posted before reading? Join the very large club (I'm a member). No worries.

[Roughneck12]

Thanks.

[Bigwoodsman]

Originally Posted by rugatika

The SAFETY-Industrial complex is out of control. When I have to worry about some schmo from the government fining me for not wearing a hard hat when I'm walking across a field in the prairie or a cutline in the bush...things have gone toooo far.

This is the same thing we have seen in so many other fields, when a new "division" or "occupation" is created or flooded. Human Resources, accounting, law, safety etc. They insert themselves into the corporate world and start demanding/making regulations that ensure they and all their cohorts have work for the next 300 years. BahHumbug!

The really terrible thing is the big companies are OK with it because they know it puts the squeeze on the little guy to compete with them when they have to have their own safety divisions. It's easy for a company with 3000 employees to hire a safety guy, come up with a program etc, but when you want to go from 9 to 12 employees it can be a real pain.

This is exactly why the safety program we wrote with our employee's works so well for us. Granted we are not oil field based or regulated. However we set up some parameters and let our employee's tell us what works for them, when and where certain PPE is required or not required. Then we make them live with in their directives to us. When they are not in compliance with their own rules, they then know and understand they will be disciplined.


We never rule with an iron fist and say this is the way it is going to be. When hazard controls are necessary it is a control developed and implemented by committee, everyone has equal say and of course equal responsibility.

Our employees are involved in our Safety Program much easier to enforce when they have developed it and are willing to use it to their benefit.

BW

[sureshot]

Originally Posted by Bigwoodsman

This is exactly why the safety program we wrote with our employee's works so well for us. Granted we are not oil field based or regulated. However we set up some parameters and let our employee's tell us what works for them, when and where certain PPE is required or not required. Then we make them live with in their directives to us. When they are not in compliance with their own rules, they then know and understand they will be disciplined.


We never rule with an iron fist and say this is the way it is going to be. When hazard controls are necessary it is a control developed and implemented by committee, everyone has equal say and of course equal responsibility.

Our employees are involved in our Safety Program much easier to enforce when they have developed it and are willing to use it to their benefit.

BW

This right here is how it should be done.

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by Bigwoodsman

This is exactly why the safety program we wrote with our employee's works so well for us. Granted we are not oil field based or regulated. However we set up some parameters and let our employee's tell us what works for them, when and where certain PPE is required or not required. Then we make them live with in their directives to us. When they are not in compliance with their own rules, they then know and understand they will be disciplined.


We never rule with an iron fist and say this is the way it is going to be. When hazard controls are necessary it is a control developed and implemented by committee, everyone has equal say and of course equal responsibility.

Our employees are involved in our Safety Program much easier to enforce when they have developed it and are willing to use it to their benefit.

BW

Almost sounds sensible.

[chasingtail]

Originally Posted by sikwhiskey

Same thing with fire retarded coveralls. I have to wear Poisoned clothing for fear of getting burned?....... Fire Retardent agents's are bad, very bad for people's health...........how many lives have they saved? None, the Safety Companies making this crap have made very large profits in Canada on the fear mongering / its for your own good BS. Mean while how much toxic crap gets introdced into our body's, water and food supply? Not only is it in our clothing, but bedding, furniture, construction materials. Absolute insanity.
Here is a post I started awhile ago........didnt get a single reply.
http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showthread.php?t=201962

I don't like paying $250 to poison myself either, so buy the $40 coveralls and sew the "FR" symbol from your old coveralls onto them, no one is the wiser. Not sure how to avoid it at home though.
Also If you can, always sign a fake name on those safety meetings, I usually just put a squiggle.

Safety Hands are just like lawmakers, always coming up with new bs to justify there jobs. The Shell safety hands are a real piece of work, just sitting in your truck on location doing paper work they will write you up if your seat belts off. Lots of good people won't work on Shell's locations because of them.

[M.C. Gusto]

Originally Posted by Bigwoodsman

I manage a large freight outfit in Edmonton. 3 years ago the owners asked me to get involved with Health and Safety. I formed a committee of supervisors and foremen, and together we developed a H&S program. Prior to this we were experiencing 3.7 lost time accidents every month. Over the past 3 years we have had 1 lost time claim period! This claim was successfully transferred 100 percent to the party responsible for the injury

What I did was make the staff write the program, tweaked it so that everyone was satisfied then hold them accountable. No grey areas, it's black and white. This way when policies or procedures aren't followed they are held accountable. Weekly Tool Box meetings aren't optional and unless you are on vacation you better attend and sign the minutes. If not your file notes a missed meeting. 3 unexcused meeting equals 3 days off no pay.



The key is accountability from the top down. Our WCB premiums are down over 200 percent since this was implemented. I am relentless in safety and will not blink when it comes to safety. Creating the Safety Culture is the biggest hurdle, but it can be down as long as you are unwavering.

We have our program audited every year by a third party and consistently score marks that are good but I always strive to do better.

Safety First and its start with YOU!

BW

Great post, great example on how to do things the right way, save money through wcb claims and insurance, and most importantly keep workers safe.

[rugatika]

Originally Posted by chasingtail

I don't like paying $250 to poison myself either, so buy the $40 coveralls and sew the "FR" symbol from your old coveralls onto them, no one is the wiser. Not sure how to avoid it at home though.
Also If you can, always sign a fake name on those safety meetings, I usually just put a squiggle.

Safety Hands are just like lawmakers, always coming up with new bs to justify there jobs. The Shell safety hands are a real piece of work, just sitting in your truck on location doing paper work they will write you up if your seat belts off. Lots of good people won't work on Shell's locations because of them.

My boss knows I won't set foot on Shell or Conoco sites. (I have over 20 years in the patch without a single lost time incident). I am about to add a couple more to my list too. Those companies get the green guys.

There's too many great companies and great guys in the field to work for to have to put up with those guys.

[HyperMOA]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

Might be, but I suspect part of the problem is that with such growth and a push to find staff, we have many employees with less experience or even qualifications than in the past. Gone are the days when 90% of the crew are experienced long-timers who know what they're doing, have seen pretty much every situation, and look out for each other. In our company most of the work groups that have been together for many years have the lowest incident rates.

All of the "green" workers are a result of the last 10 years of "safety culture". Some of these guys are 10 veterans, but still green as can be, as they are no longer allowed to perform their duties due to company policies. These policies are usually referred to as legislation by these under-handed HSE personnel. Many trades only get work done by bending, breaking, or flat-out ignoring all of the ridiculous blanket policies laid out before them.

[sureshot]

Originally Posted by HyperMOA

All of the "green" workers are a result of the last 10 years of "safety culture". Some of these guys are 10 veterans, but still green as can be, as they are no longer allowed to perform their duties due to company policies. These policies are usually referred to as legislation by these under-handed HSE personnel. Many trades only get work done by bending, breaking, or flat-out ignoring all of the ridiculous blanket policies laid out before them.

So you are saying that all safety people are under handed? As I've said a lot of the paper work is bs, but has to be in place just to keep your COR. As far as green guys we all had to start somewhere, we were all green at one time.

[petew]

Don't let the apprentice do anything that might hurt him. That's great in 4 years he is a Journeyman and expected to do tasks safe practices kept him from doing when he was supervised. Now on his own and no Idea how to do his job. real safe isn't it.

Now if you want a career change just take a safety course , Bingo you got a job, probably starting as safety on a Major shutdown in a refinery. I am probably getting ahead of myself , because these people don't know what that big complex with all the shiny pipes is called or what it does, but they have pumped gas before. And hey it pays good too. No other occupation lets you supervise people when you don't even know what they do or how they do it, and the names of the tools they use. Ok the most of them recognise a screwdriver and a hammer.
Now Suzie is tired of baking so she gets free training because this is a non traditional occupation, , and she gets to wear a cool hardhat with lots of stickers, and the latest safety garb hanging from it. She gets a cool clipboard that looks real official, . The only thing she supplies is Work Boots, Frequently PINK, and an attitude.
Retired military make great safety guys too, No background at all in the industry, but they did wear boots, so that must be worth something . They did spend time outside too, even if it was digging a fox hole or a latrine.

So if industry was realy serious , they would use people that at least understand the concept of construction, and the rules would be sensible and workable.
I noted the FR clothing comment above. Nomex is a type of material that is proven effective, however it is expensive. That is why the Clients use it, and the Contractors get Cotton soaked in Chemicals , that are cheap. They have a limited life , however the life only ends when they are torn beyond repair and patching. Trades are not worth the proper Nomex material in their coveralls.

[sillyak]

[The Cook]

Two times in the last 15 years I refused to do a job because I felt it was unsafe, both times I was hauled up on the carpet and written up for disobedience

[HyperMOA]

Originally Posted by sureshot

So you are saying that all safety people are under handed? As I've said a lot of the paper work is bs, but has to be in place just to keep your COR. As far as green guys we all had to start somewhere, we were all green at one time.

No, I did not say that. I said, the safety officials who guise a policy as legislation are under-handed.

[JamesB]

My son was crushed by a truck at work. The reason was because of low level management complacency not lack of safety rules. He had three dually axles cross his body, something the safety inspector told me she had not seen someone survive.
The thing that stinks about the system is that the victim cannot sue their employer for negligence. And if the employer is found negligent and fined by OH&S the victim gets nothing. There is no provision for pain and suffering and WCB provides less than the wages before the accident. In the end my son is seeing a loss of his time, loss of earning power, associated costs not covered and no ability to claim any of the costs from anyone.

[smith88]

Originally Posted by The Cook

Two times in the last 15 years I refused to do a job because I felt it was unsafe, both times I was hauled up on the carpet and written up for disobedience

Go to the labour board cause that is illegal.

[sureshot]

4 deaths in a week.



But we don't need safety right Petew. Give your head a shake.

[HyperMOA]

How could there possibly be 4 deaths in a week. Every stupid policy that could ever be dreamed up has been implemented. Every Alberta worker is bullet-proof. Maybe the safety industry has taken the ability of the working man away, and forced them to work mindlessly and follow blanket policies to the point where the average worker is nothing more than a lemming. More deaths will come from this "safety culture". Don't worry though, we will just take more abilities away from the worker, that will solve the problem.

More safety?!?!?! Give your head a shake against a brick wall.

[sureshot]

Originally Posted by HyperMOA

How could there possibly be 4 deaths in a week. Every stupid policy that could ever be dreamed up has been implemented. Every Alberta worker is bullet-proof. Maybe the safety industry has taken the ability of the working man away, and forced them to work mindlessly and follow blanket policies to the point where the average worker is nothing more than a lemming. More deaths will come from this "safety culture". Don't worry though, we will just take more abilities away from the worker, that will solve the problem.

More safety?!?!?! Give your head a shake against a brick wall.

I never said more safety, we need safety but from people that have experience the field, people that have actually done the job before, Even though I'm an NCSO I wouldn't apply for a job in the electrical field as my experience is in trucking and heavy equipment.

And yes there was 4 deaths in a week.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...week-1.2852824