Wolf Poisoning

[Bushleague]

Originally Posted by Salavee

On the surface that seems to make a lot of sense. What, if anything would be
a negative to that approach?

One negative I can think of is that it will probably only work once on any given wolf, I've never heard of a dog getting parvo twice. Another is that nobody could really guess what percentage of the wolves will die of it, I've had several dogs survive parvo without any real medical care and know of many more. The fellow who told me about it said it killed wolves pretty efficiently so maybe it hits them harder, maybe not.

So to me, given what little I know, it seems like wolves could be infected with far more success than they could be poisoned. Getting a few wolves to sniff dog poo and then pass along the virus seems far easyer to do than to get a significant number of them to ingest poison. The downside is that I don't think anyone could accurately predict how effective its going to be. Personally, I greatly doubt that parvo can completely eradicate whole wolf packs, despite my sources enthusiastic report, otherwise it most likely would have already happened in agricultural areas. It would probably be more like a selective cull, and what percentage it would actually cull is tough to guess at.

[Torkdiesel]

Originally Posted by Talking moose

That’s very interesting. Only problem I see with this is with poison, when you get to the desired number of wolves you simply stop the poison. How will they stop the parvo when the goal number is reached? Or will parvo die off on its own?

I’m guessing simply by the nature of wolves to range far and wide they all wouldn’t get it.
Although before going down this route I’d likely just pick pouson, the effects seem more final immediately, with less suffering!

I agree something must be done, but I’m far from a sadistic person

[Spruster]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

That's what I've heard. I read a report about a study done in Saskatchewan where most of the Black Bears in one area were removed, as I understand it it was some sort of island type habitat, anyway the Bears were removed, killed I assume, and the Moose population exploded in subsequent years.

It was sort of the same with the Rabies eradication program, at least in the Peace River district. Foxes were the bigger concern as they were far more plentiful and lived closer to human development and so were a greater threat to people and livestock which I understand were the main concerns.
I remember no talk of predator control to enhance ungulate populations.

It wouldn't have made sense to most back then. Ungulate populations were far higher then they are today and there were many times fewer hunters.
I can recall hearing of hunting seasons lasting half the year and more then one tag issued for many species, including Moose.

We can look back now and wonder why those folks did what they did, but it was very different back then.
Population dynamics was very poorly understood, many including government officials thought there would be no end to the plentiful wildlife.
The long term impact of over harvesting, the use of poisons, and human development was not known or only partially understood.

Think about it, they were still hand cranking their cars and flying stick and canvas airplanes. Our hospitals were not much better then butcher shops back then and many thought animals were little more then unfeeling automatons.

What we understand today would seem like fantasy to most back then.
And yet, we know very little.

Sure it sounds like common sense to eradicate Wolves so humans will have more hunting opportunities. But like you point out, Wolves are not the only issue in managing ungulate populations.

There is also the issue of dwindling habitat, disease, and parasites.

I'm not saying we should not be killing Wolves. I believe the Wolf population is too high and needs to be reduced. But I do not agree that it makes sense to use strychnine under any circumstances.
I've seen the results of that first hand. Yes it did almost eliminate Wolves but it did as much if not more to many other species.

I don't have a solution, I don't think anyone does.
But those who would argue that one must agree with total eradication, or offer a better solution or keep their mouths shut, are in a word, bullies.

There is no place in this discussion for bullies.

Bullies , nice word of the times , you think. I never implied anything to you . If you have no solutions , that's fine . My position is to use poison in certain areas and in a controlled environment . There is no time and place for indecision . Question ? what happens to our caribou when the wolves eat them all ? You still on the fence . Again people with no answer's , leave questions ..

[Drewski Canuck]

"Paquet has long argued snares are the most inhumane, legally allowed traps in use, even used by the provincial government to kill wolves in the name of protecting caribou, which have suffered as a result of industrial development.

“Will this ever end?” said Paquet, who is an adjunct professor of biology and associate professor of environmental design at the University of Calgary

“In this case, it’s especially offensive because dying by slow strangulation is such a horrific way to die and undeniably inhumane.”"

From all information I have, wolves and coyotes caught in snares panic resulting in strangulation within minutes, as the cable locks only tighten more.

The alternative would be a foot hold trap which holds the animal to suffer in the trap, for a couple of days before being shot by the trapper. However, this Biology Professor would simply look the other way on this fact.

Yes there are too many wolves. Yes Park wolves use more than just the National Park as range. And yes, taking the breeding Alpha Female will alow another female to become the Alpha Female of the pack in mating season.

As for Poisoning wolves, over introduced viruses that cannot be controlled in nature from mutation and transfer to other animals, or natural immunity in the target animal, I would prefer the route of poison for effective control of the wolf population in Alberta.

Drewski

[KID COLT OUTLAW]

is there not a canine poison that uses sugar substitute. when i was on vancouver island 20 years ago ,if you brought in a wolf carcass to any rod and gun club they would pay you $200.00

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by KID COLT OUTLAW

is there not a canine poison that uses sugar substitute. when i was on vancouver island 20 years ago ,if you brought in a wolf carcass to any rod and gun club they would pay you $200.00

Workshop I attended suggested xylitol, an artificial sweetener found in mints and gums was extremely toxic to canines. Keep your dog away from these.

Grizz

[walking buffalo]

Originally Posted by Bushleague

Ya know, an old rancher once told me how to thin wolves efficiently, not sure how everyone feels about this particular method but here goes... you give them Parvo by placing feces from a Parvo infected dog in conspicuous places where the wolves will investigate. Once one wolf gets it, parvo goes through the pack, and reportedly leaves far less survivors among wolves than it does with dogs.

Personally I think the idea has merit, I hunt and trap in places that are far from anywhere that a domestic dog might be walked, there are not even any coyotes that far back anymore because the wolves will not tolerate them. So it seems like Parvo would really only affect the targeted species, with little chance of any "bycatch" when this method is used, mindful of the location. Sure parvo can be a nasty business but with care I would think it is a better option than poison.

So now all we need to do is find a sympathetic vet, and get them to bag us up some parvo-poo.

Going to need a Big bag of poo!


Researchers in Minnesota gave it a fling.
https://pubs.er.usgs.gov/publication/5222634



I still think a gift of baleen to the Indians for traditional use wouldn't hurt (unless you're a wolf)….

[sage 13]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Going to need a Big bag of poo!


Researchers in Minnesota gave it a fling.
https://pubs.er.usgs.gov/publication/5222634



I still think a gift of baleen to the Indians for traditional use wouldn't hurt (unless you're a wolf)….

or any other animal that ingests it not much different then poison.
Pretty sick way of killing something, the people mentioning it are not wrapped right either and hopefully are under authoritys radar.

[Spruster]

Originally Posted by sage 13

or any other animal that ingests it not much different then poison.
Pretty sick way of killing something, the people mentioning it are not wrapped right either and hopefully are under authoritys radar.

So , give us the answer to control wolves and protect caribou. You don't have an answer , just whine and complain . What the hell is so hard about that ??? anyone notice there's no anti's on here .. LIKE SAVE THE WOLF … You wanna why ? They are stuck and have no Answers . other than Poison

when the caribou are gone can we call you ??

[sage 13]

Originally Posted by Spruster

So , give us the answer to control wolves and protect caribou. You don't have an answer , just whine and complain . What the hell is so hard about that ??? anyone notice there's no anti's on here .. LIKE SAVE THE WOLF … You wanna why ? They are stuck and have no Answers . other than Poison

when the caribou are gone can we call you ??

kind of sounds like your the one doing the whining and complaining.
So your only trying to protect caribou?

[MooseRiverTrapper]

Originally Posted by sage 13

kind of sounds like your the one doing the whining and complaining.
So your only trying to protect caribou?

And what are you doing here?

[Spruster]

Originally Posted by sage 13

kind of sounds like your the one doing the whining and complaining.
So your only trying to protect caribou?

Is that not enough ??? I think you should let pops talk

[marky_mark]

Best kind of wolf

[sage 13]

Originally Posted by Spruster

Is that not enough ??? I think you should let pops talk

No theres deer elk moose, sheep goats wolverine bears martins etc etc all sorts of wildlife out there. Find it strange your only concerned about caribou.

[marky_mark]

Originally Posted by sage 13

No theres deer elk moose, sheep goats wolverine bears martins etc etc all sorts of wildlife out there. Find it strange your only concerned about caribou.

The caribou in Alberta are in rough shape
They need help
All ungulates would do better with less wolves

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by Drewski Canuck

"Paquet has long argued snares are the most inhumane, legally allowed traps in use, even used by the provincial government to kill wolves in the name of protecting caribou, which have suffered as a result of industrial development.

Unfortunately education has become the new deity. Problem is, many of those supposed experts gained all their knowledge from books, and often those books were written by people who had never seen or even heard a Wolf.

Humane and inhumane are concepts that do not exist in a Wolf's thinking.

Is strangulation any worse then being eaten alive. That is what wolves often do, eat things while they are still alive. Often, deliberately avoiding killing large animals as long as possible while they are being eaten.
It keeps the victim from freezing sold before it can be fully consumed.

Naturally immediate an painless death appeals to us humans, we don't like to see anything suffer, unless one is a psychopath.
But in the real world, (not man made) life is unsympathetic. Many creatures face slow painful death by starvation, disease, injury, and predation.

I'm not saying we should not seek the quickest and least painful means of killing animals. Just that it should not be the only consideration.

And we need to stop taking our direction from educated wanna bees.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by walking buffalo

Going to need a Big bag of poo!


Researchers in Minnesota gave it a fling.
https://pubs.er.usgs.gov/publication/5222634



I still think a gift of baleen to the Indians for traditional use wouldn't hurt (unless you're a wolf)….

I've never heard of biological control being used on large animals, but I have heard of it working well on insects.

I like the idea but I suspect it has and probably is being researched.
Would be nice if it did work. Without side effects to other species.

Most diseases are self limiting. When the populations drops below a certain threshold the disease dies out. Like anything living, it needs a ready food supply to thrive. When it runs low on food it dies.

[KegRiver]

Often, what sounds like an easy solution, turns out to be anything but.

The uninformed may think simply encouraging hunters to shoot wolves whenever possible, may sound like it should do the job.

My experience suggests it's not that simple. We have had a number of Wolf hunt outfitters operating in this area for several years now.
These people spend half the year doing nothing but hunting wolves. And yet, we still have an overpopulation of wolves.
I know of three such outfitters within a fifty mile radius, and a dozen or more very experienced trappers who target wolves, plus nearly every farmer in the area shoots any wolf he or she sees and yet there does not seem to be any reduction in the wolf population.

Even the government's poisoning efforts have been less then effective from what I've read.


I worked as a county trapper for a while. I took more then 300 beaver one summer working for the county, it had little effect on the population.
That's the way it is. Animals evolved to increase in numbers so long as there is more then enough food to supply the present population.

Maybe a few thousand, paid, full time wolf hunters would get the desired results. Maybe a bounty would help, maybe there is a biological control that would work.

But I don't see the government spending the needed dollars to make any of it happen. Dead wolves do not increase votes.

As for me, my health isn't good enough for me to spend the necessary time tramping the forests around here for me to make any difference at all.
A walk to the end of my driveway is about all I can handle these days.

It's not that I don't want to participate. I simply can't, and it bothers me more than any of you could comprehend.
For more then fifty years I was an avid, and very active, trapper, hunter, and outdoorsman.

If some want to call that complaining, then I think most would agree, I have earned the right to do so. I paid my dues. I put in my time.
I am not sitting on the side lines complaining because I like to do so, but because it is all I have left that I can do..

[Big Grey Wolf]

Keg, the 8000km trapline with 170 trained experienced trappers set up to protect the farming areas of Alberta from rabies worked to trim wolves back to a sustainable level. They estimated more than 5000 wolf kill, but may have over estimated the wolves that could not count at the kill sites.
Perhaps your trapper father was one of the wolf control team.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf

Keg, the 8000km trapline with 170 trained experienced trappers set up to protect the farming areas of Alberta from rabies worked to trim wolves back to a sustainable level. They estimated more than 5000 wolf kill, but may have over estimated the wolves that could not count at the kill sites.
Perhaps your trapper father was one of the wolf control team.

I heard that hunting did work well in the south, (developed areas) but it did not and will not work here. There is simply too much hard to reach territory for wolves to hide in.

Yes my dad was one of those recruited to participate in the rabies elimination program, but not in any general predator, or wolf reduction plan.
This despite the fact that dad was reputed to be the best wolf trapper in the Peace River area.

To the best of my knowledge, there was no predator reduction program in this area. I do know that dad talked of seeing herds of Deer along the river that he described as being like herds of cattle.

Big game was so plentiful here that I doubt anyone even thought of predator control measures. Local farmers did make an effort to control Coyote and Fox populations to protect their livestock but I am not aware of any government effort or support in this.

Just a note, I remember counting 23 Moose within sight of our home, on one sunny afternoon mid winter, around 1964.

Today, from the same location, one is not likely to see more then ten in a whole year.

[Oldan Grumpi]

When I was a kid in the early '60s, the Alberta Agriculture field agent (I don't recall their official title) in every small town had a gallon jar of strychnine in his office. All you had to do was ask, and he'd dole you out a couple of cupfuls of little white cubes. Wicked stuff, you sure had to be careful.

Poisoning every moose gut pile was standard operating procedure. Get a moose today, and get 8 or 10 free wolves by morning. Most of them died with their noses still on the gut pile. (You were allowed 2 moose in those days, either 2 bulls or 1 bull and 1 cow. Between the bunch of us, that was a lot of gut piles - but there were also literally herds of moose to choose from.)

There was an awful lot of by kill, mostly ravens and magpies, but we sure killed a lot of wolves too. We skinned everything, so it wasn't wasted, and all of our dads had traplines so it was pretty well above board. We were just real careful skinning, and we always burned the carcasses. It only took a speck of that stuff to turn you inside out.

[MooseRiverTrapper]

Originally Posted by Oldan Grumpi

When I was a kid in the early '60s, the Alberta Agriculture field agent (I don't recall their official title) in every small town had a gallon jar of strychnine in his office. All you had to do was ask, and he'd dole you out a couple of cupfuls of little white cubes. Wicked stuff, you sure had to be careful.

Poisoning every moose gut pile was standard operating procedure. Get a moose today, and get 8 or 10 free wolves by morning. Most of them died with their noses still on the gut pile. (You were allowed 2 moose in those days, either 2 bulls or 1 bull and 1 cow. Between the bunch of us, that was a lot of gut piles - but there were also literally herds of moose to choose from.)

There was an awful lot of by kill, mostly ravens and magpies, but we sure killed a lot of wolves too. We skinned everything, so it wasn't wasted, and all of our dads had traplines so it was pretty well above board. We were just real careful skinning, and we always burned the carcasses. It only took a speck of that stuff to turn you inside out.

Great story. A lost art form. Too many on here can’t see the big picture. Can’t see beyond the whiskeyjack and the magpie.

[Jetboatn]

Much needed. Populations are out of control.

[Spruster]

Originally Posted by Jetboatn

Much needed. Populations are out of control.

Yes .. let the poison , drop forever helli , trapper and hunter . Not much here from the tree hugger. hhmmmm , wonder why .

[Bushrat]

Death by poison, its no crueler than the way they die naturally. Do people think when wolves and other animals are sick, starving, infested by parasites or disease, freezing or simply to old to live any longer that they spend their final days, months or years in a nice warm bed, are issued pain killers and sedatives, spoon fed, surrounded and comforted by loving caring families?

[Spruster]

If there's 8000 woofs in Alberta. lets' take that number to about 20 . all agree and maybe keep some In
zoo's

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

Death by poison, its no crueler than the way they die naturally.

You think!



Have you ever heard of a natural death resulting in broken bones?
It's common in a strychnine death. This poison causes convulsions so violent that leg bones are commonly broken by the convulsion alone.

My dad told me he saw one wolf do a back flip six feet into the air when the poison kicked in. It was the last time dad ever used the stuff.

He knew strychnine caused a violent death but he'd never actually seen it happen until that day. Once was enough for him and dad was not a sensitive man. He was old school tough. I've seen him pick live coals off the floor and toss them back into the heater.
The man didn't even tear up when his favorite son died of exposure. At least not that he ever let anyone see.
He even cut off one of his own fingers once. It was pretty much done for anyway so he finished the job and went on with his day like it was the most normal thing to do.

But seeing one wolf die from that poison cured him of ever using it again. And he hated wolves.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by Oldan Grumpi

When I was a kid in the early '60s, the Alberta Agriculture field agent (I don't recall their official title) in every small town had a gallon jar of strychnine in his office. All you had to do was ask, and he'd dole you out a couple of cupfuls of little white cubes. Wicked stuff, you sure had to be careful.

Poisoning every moose gut pile was standard operating procedure. Get a moose today, and get 8 or 10 free wolves by morning. Most of them died with their noses still on the gut pile. (You were allowed 2 moose in those days, either 2 bulls or 1 bull and 1 cow. Between the bunch of us, that was a lot of gut piles - but there were also literally herds of moose to choose from.)

There was an awful lot of by kill, mostly ravens and magpies, but we sure killed a lot of wolves too. We skinned everything, so it wasn't wasted, and all of our dads had traplines so it was pretty well above board. We were just real careful skinning, and we always burned the carcasses. It only took a speck of that stuff to turn you inside out.

Thank you for the memories. I remember a lot the same, but not the jar full of strychnine.
We received it in a cardboard can, kinda like a very short wide baking soda can. The top and bottom were tin, the sides, cardboard, and it was pain cardboard brown with a white label on the lid.
The poison was in small white cubes, like miniature sugar cubes, about 1/8 the size of a sugar cube.

One cube in a tablespoon of hard baking lard was all one needed to do in one wolf. And you are right, one had to be very careful handling the carcass.
One cut finger touch the flesh of the poisoned critter and you get one very sick trapper.

Burning was how I was taught to dispose of the carcass as well. It was the surest way to prevent other critters from getting poisoned by that carcass.

People who think it's no big deal have no idea just how nasty this stuff is.
I have no issues with the proper use of poisons like sodium cyanide or Compound 1080.
But strychnine is in a class all by itself for good reason.

Our ancestors did not fully understand the consequences of it's use, just as they didn't with DDT, thalidomide, asbestos, and PCBs.

We need to understand that strychnine belongs among the top four worst toxins ever used by humans.

We now know enough about such chemicals, or should, for it to be incumbent on us to never use chemicals for any reason.

[Spruster]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

Thank you for the memories. I remember a lot the same, but not the jar full of strychnine.
We received it in a cardboard can, kinda like a very short wide baking soda can. The top and bottom were tin, the sides, cardboard, and it was pain cardboard brown with a white label on the lid.
The poison was in small white cubes, like miniature sugar cubes, about 1/8 the size of a sugar cube.

One cube in a tablespoon of hard baking lard was all one needed to do in one wolf. And you are right, one had to be very careful handling the carcass.
One cut finger touch the flesh of the poisoned critter and you get one very sick trapper.

Burning was how I was taught to dispose of the carcass as well. It was the surest way to prevent other critters from getting poisoned by that carcass.I wish you wold shut up.really

People who think it's no big deal have no idea just how nasty this stuff is.
I have no issues with the proper use of poisons like sodium cyanide or Compound 1080.
But strychnine is in a class all by itself for good reason.

Our ancestors did not fully understand the consequences of it's use, just as they didn't with DDT, thalidomide, asbestos, and PCBs.

We need to understand that strychnine belongs among the top four worst toxins ever used by humans.

We now know enough about such chemicals, or should, for it to be incumbent on us to never use chemicals for any reason.

poison them over, over and over by the thousands , give up your stupid dumb ass crusade ,pls go buy some house raid...shut up already

[JD848]

Originally Posted by Spruster

poison them over, over and over by the thousands , give up your stupid dumb ass crusade ,pls go buy some house raid...shut up already

Have a bit of respect for others if it's in you specially your elders,he or anyone else can have there say on how they feel about this topic.

This is not cool baby boy talking to anyone like this,your just another loud mouth behind a keyboard.