Oil lease access?

I am trying to figure this one out on their website and the governments but haven't had luck. Figure some guys on here may be more familiar with this issue than i am (i have not hunted on public land in oil/gas areas all that much). If i was in the wrong a lot of other hunters would also be so i thought i'd post the story as well.

I had a run in with a certain oil company employee on public land south of Hinton. We had been hunting for the afternoon in a large meadow we accessed off a road which also lead to a compressor (marked only with a land location). Just as we returned to the truck i heard talking on a loudspeaker sort of a system and recognized the report a poacher number. As we had not harvested anything, or fired a shot all day i was a bit worried. Anyway, as we put our gear into the truck the guy hollered at us and said we were not allowed within 300 metres of oil leases. I went up to his truck as i was not sure what he meant and he said we were trespassing as the road is also part of the lease. He then went on to say we could be fined $200 000 as we drove over unmarked buried pipelines on the road in, (which he drove in on in a bigger truck than i have). Anyway, he made a few comments about oil field gear not working with bullet holes in it and i was pretty shocked after the whole confrontation. I double checked the entire area for any signs indicating limited access and found none. There are no gates in the area and the only signs are on the main forestry road (about 20 year old signs) simply saying its a private road and not maintained year round, use at own risk. Anyway, its a popular access road for hunters in the area so now I'm wondering if everyone's been hunting illegally in there over the past years (i know guys have been in there the past three minimum).

Now i thought i understood parking on leases was not allowed due to issues when pressure is released but as i was parked off the edge of the lease and hiked in along the edge i figured i'd be safe (no signs on the lease either). Is there legislation speaking about this issue? Otherwise is there maps available explaining where these leases are and what the access limitations are? When i hunted bears further north i talked to dozens of operators along the roads and none ever mentioned anything about a 300 metre buffer, most told us where they saw some bears hanging out and what time of day to go check. Anyway, if anyone can point me in the right direction for information i'd appreciate it. And the road in question has existed for a long time, i believe it was originally an in block road, not sure if that matters.

Thanks for any input.

[Chung66]

There is nothing in the Public Lands Act that would support what the operator had to say. If it was me, I would complain the company. The company name would be on the lease location sign and the phone number you can google it. Their public relations or surface land department would know the operator.
In the pipeline act it states that pipelines must be marked. 99% of the time they are not. If you are driving over an unmarked pipeline, then it is their fault.
I wouldn't worry about the pipeline, they burry them the same depth in agriculture areas. Farmers drive tractors over them all year and there are no problems.
My guess it the guy was a bully or tired of running into hunters in the fall.

[honda450]

Yup I think ya just ran into a cranky operator. The operator where I hunt stops by my camp and tells me where the critters are.

[dxt08]

i have heard that you are not allowed to hunt within 300m of a well site

[Mike_W]

Oil companies rights are under the ground nothing above!!

[Ice Fishing Maniac]

As for buried pipeline facilities, the fellow should re-read the Pipeline Act and maybe do the Advanced Level - Ground Disturbance Course. If his truck is that big, he shouldnt of drove over it either. For the general public..nobody would know. I believe its anything 1/2 ton and under. If its heavier you need a Crossing Agreement. As for the depth buried....on the lease sites, pipelines maybe shallower.

As for parking on the lease site...has to do with safety...especially if an H2S oil site.

Public has rights to access the roads..if you are in a marked company truck...but hunting, they can allow no access since you did not request access.

As mentioned, the operator was just cranky...most are helpful and fellow hunters.

[jip911]

Further 2 this conversation...
What is the true story behind the "private road" signs that seem to be popping up more and more... Some read "....road not maintained, use at own risk..." and others say "...NO ACCESS UNLESS BY PERMIT...CALL XXX-XXXX FOR PERMIT..." Can one legaly travel these roads? Can they prevent access?

Another thing I often questioned is the locked gates along the Forestry Trunk Road (FTR)... Why are locked gates so common along the FTR??? Do they own the road??? Can one walk/ATV around them?? I noticed many have had there locks shot off and the gates left open...

Where can someone get more information into who owns what, and what rights if any I have to access this land?

Thanks
J

Thanks guys, gave me a few more ideas to look into. I am confident i did nothing illegal and was simply subject to a grouchy anti hunter type. I will be trying to contact the appropriate individuals to clarify the situation and hopefully ensure the guy doesn't wreck another hunters afternoon.

Good hunting everyone.

[rugatika]

Sounds like there must be a nice buck or something in the area the operator had scoped out.

Generally speaking those private road signs only apply to commercial users. I believe the public has free reign to use these roads as long as they are 1 ton or under. Pipelines under roads are built up to sustain much heavier traffic than 1 tons even...across a field or pipeline right of way maybe not...depends.

The locked gate things may be from wildlife agreements with the province. The oil company is allowed to put roads in as long as they keep them locked to keep public out for sensitive ecosystems etc.

Maybe someone else can add more info.

That operator sounds like a real jerk by the way.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by Mike_W

Oil companies rights are under the ground nothing above!!

HUH??????.....wonder why they're called "lease roads????"

[sparky660]

I was under the impression that if the oil company built the road to the lease that it was under their control who has access to use it. No different than the lease where the wellhead is located. That is why alot of the lease access road in the Grande cache area have security shacks. Maybe I'm wrong.

[hal53]

Originally Posted by sparky660

I was under the impression that if the oil company built the road to the lease that it was under their control who has access to use it. No different than the lease where the wellhead is located. That is why alot of the lease access road in the Grande cache area have security shacks. Maybe I'm wrong.

you're right...90-120' access road into a 400' by 400' lease

[IR_mike]

Originally Posted by sparky660

That is why alot of the lease access road in the Grande cache area have security shacks. Maybe I'm wrong.

I think those shacks are only present at access during the drilling and serviceing of sour wells...Then again I could also be wrong.

[stephen189]

Chung, pipelines can be buried at any depth, even fully exposed at times. Crossing agreements are required at all times when crossing buried facilities with 3/4 ton and larger trucks.

Mike, you are completely wrong, most remote oilfield roads are privately built and maintained and are not for public use. Company representatives have the right to ask you to leave and notify the RCMP if you do not comply. Producers and pipelines do have exclusive rights to the lease site boundaries.

Chung, go ahead and call the pipeline or producer head office or emergency telephone number complaining about being asked to leave private property that you have no prior permission to access, the rep will most likely be more than happy to tell you that you do not have the right to be on that road, especially after you tell them about the argument you just had with their employee. The operator was most likely not wanting a conflict with an armed man in a remote location, and it is a safety concern for field workers when hunters are in the area.

You also cannot park in a lease site without prior permission.

The one common theme is........ASK FOR PERMISSION.

Get an LSD and call the producer in the area and ask to speak with a supervisor about access. I don't see how this is any different from asking a landowner for permission. Do not assume all land and roads are public domain, and if a "private road" sign is posted, feel free to assume its not your private road.

[sparky660]

Thanks for the confirmation stephen.

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by stephen189

Chung, pipelines can be buried at any depth, even fully exposed at times. Crossing agreements are required at all times when crossing buried facilities with 3/4 ton and larger trucks.

Mike, you are completely wrong, most remote oilfield roads are privately built and maintained and are not for public use. Company representatives have the right to ask you to leave and notify the RCMP if you do not comply. Producers and pipelines do have exclusive rights to the lease site boundaries.

Chung, go ahead and call the pipeline or producer head office or emergency telephone number complaining about being asked to leave private property that you have no prior permission to access, the rep will most likely be more than happy to tell you that you do not have the right to be on that road, especially after you tell them about the argument you just had with their employee. The operator was most likely not wanting a conflict with an armed man in a remote location, and it is a safety concern for field workers when hunters are in the area.

You also cannot park in a lease site without prior permission.

The one common theme is........ASK FOR PERMISSION.

Get an LSD and call the producer in the area and ask to speak with a supervisor about access. I don't see how this is any different from asking a landowner for permission. Do not assume all land and roads are public domain, and if a "private road" sign is posted, feel free to assume its not your private road.

They expect me to call them, even if I'm just going to drive a few fence posts, across their lease. The pipe, incidentally, is about 8 ft. down.
Grizz

[mulecrazy]

Like others have said. These oil lease roads generally are built and maintained by the oil companies. They have no reason to actually let you in there. If they want to lock every gate that is their right and sometimes is very justified. I know penn west has had oodles of troubles with things going missing during hunting season (fire extinguishers, shovel, etc.) sometimes even stuff that was bolted down. Sour sites are very dangerous and should not be approached without a personal gas monitor. The question about the locked gates along the forestry trunk road is probably due to the fact that it is all sour gas in that area and they do it to protect the public as much as their assets. Anyone who works in the oil/gas production side can tell you stories about bullet holes in seperator buildings, MCC buildings, methanol tanks. It is surprising that with the big push for safety in the patch they are not cracking down on this more.

[Walleyes]

Originally Posted by mulecrazy

Like others have said. These oil lease roads generally are built and maintained by the oil companies. They have no reason to actually let you in there. If they want to lock every gate that is their right and sometimes is very justified. I know penn west has had oodles of troubles with things going missing during hunting season (fire extinguishers, shovel, etc.) sometimes even stuff that was bolted down. Sour sites are very dangerous and should not be approached without a personal gas monitor. The question about the locked gates along the forestry trunk road is probably due to the fact that it is all sour gas in that area and they do it to protect the public as much as their assets. Anyone who works in the oil/gas production side can tell you stories about bullet holes in seperator buildings, MCC buildings, methanol tanks. It is surprising that with the big push for safety in the patch they are not cracking down on this more.

No sorry mulecrazy,, oil companies do not hold any right to keep the private user off of a road and as a fact they can not legally keep you off of a road on public land. They can keep you away from their compressor or well site but must fence it off if this is required. If you encounter a locked gate on an access road you can insist they remove the lock if they don't you have every right to get in touch with the proper authorities and have it removed. The fact that they have stuff stolen from their sites is the risk they take. I personally remove these types of locks without asking. These companies are on public land they do not own it all they have is an agreement to use it same as all tax payers. Do not be bullied or fooled by what some may tell you. Trust me on this one I work for a major company and deal with these issues almost daily.

Thanks for a bit of an explanation from someone in the industry Walleyes.

Interesting to hear so many different takes on the issue, i expected more of a clearcut answer. I have no issue with closures in the genuine interest of public safety or wildlife management but i do find it odd that i can be accused of trespassing on public land when there are no signs, no gates, and no information available on the Internet indicating closures (i went through the Alberta Government site and several web pages for oil/gas companies that operate in the area, nothings turned up). Anyway, appreciate all the thought guys put into this, a few different angles to think about. The 300 metre rule the guy mentioned is something i cannot find anywhere and something i would think would be widely publicized if actually true.

[mulecrazy]

Originally Posted by Walleyes

No sorry mulecrazy,, oil companies do not hold any right to keep the private user off of a road and as a fact they can not legally keep you off of a road on public land. They can keep you away from their compressor or well site but must fence it off if this is required. If you encounter a locked gate on an access road you can insist they remove the lock if they don't you have every right to get in touch with the proper authorities and have it removed. The fact that they have stuff stolen from their sites is the risk they take. I personally remove these types of locks without asking. These companies are on public land they do not own it all they have is an agreement to use it same as all tax payers. Do not be bullied or fooled by what some may tell you. Trust me on this one I work for a major company and deal with these issues almost daily.

Not saying they can keep you off of public land. But IMO if they have a private road that they built, they have the right to restrict access. I will have to look into the legalities on that though for sure. seems odd that they can't lock up their trails. I am not talking about major roads though. Just the off shoot ones that go to a single well or compressor.

[bearbuster]

Jip,
Alot of the gates on the forestry are locked as per SRD not the oil companies. As of this spring the gates were ordered locked by the Government, with fines being issued everytime the gate was found open. I believe this has more to do with the politics/Y2Y mentallity, because the loggers are/ have been behind the gates. And it is not all the gates but certain ones

[Wulfespirit]

Originally Posted by mulecrazy

Not saying they can keep you off of public land. But IMO if they have a private road that they built, they have the right to restrict access. I will have to look into the legalities on that though for sure. seems odd that they can't lock up their trails. I am not talking about major roads though. Just the off shoot ones that go to a single well or compressor.

And on what land do you believe that road is built on?

Oil/gas/logging companies don't own the 'leased' land. They've simply entered an agreement with the government to harvest resources from it (which sometimes requires building a road on it). It still belongs to the public - period.

[Vindalbakken]

If I own a building and "lease" it out to someone else I no longer have "right of access". The person holding the lease does. Same as the land that has been leased to the oil company - including the road on it.
That said, without any signage or a lock the Petty Trespass Act would "allow" you access until notification otherwise.

[Chung66]

With regards to gated roads, Unless there is a "Ministerial Order" stating access to public is prohibited in some fashion, then you cannot be charged in any way. There are only about 6 of these in Alberta. If the access road is under an LOC (License of Occupation), then gate or no gate you cannot be denied access. Believe me, I as a resource company rep have been through this with Fish and Wildlife and Forestry. With regards to manned gates, the premise is that they don't have to open the gate at your request, but cannot stop you if you proceed with another vehicle. Fish and wildlife cannot charge you with a regulation that does not exist and forestry does not have the will to charge you. If they do the process is as follows.
1st offence - warning letter
2nd offence - another letter requesting representation
3rd - 4th offence - a fine of some sort
To my knowledge there has never been a warning letter sent.
As a member of the public, I would not want to enter a wellsite or installation because of H2S. To me that is common sense.
Right now the government is finalizing legislation (Land Use Framework, SHREM and Integrated Land Use Management) that may affect public use of Leased land. Even to the point of rstricting recreational use of public land.

[Stinky Buffalo]

There is a difference between an operator having genuine concerns and communicating them in a polite and professional manner, versus being confrontational and bullying.

It would stand to reason that oil and gas companies be concerned about the optics of their operations from the public's perspecive. It could very well be that the operator's higher-ups would be interested in hearing about the incident.

[NCC]

Under what regulations do the coal mines keep people off of the mine sites? How about ski resorts?

[CMMahy]

Ski resorts can't and won't keep you off the hill, they just prevent you from using the lifts (that they built, staff, operate, and maintain) without buying a pass. You can hike up and ride down the mountain all day without paying a cent. It's just not as fun
If they wanted to keep people off the mountain, they'd make you pay admission as you come onto the property, not inside the lodge.

[mulecrazy]

Originally Posted by CMMahy

Ski resorts can't and won't keep you off the hill, they just prevent you from using the lifts (that they built, staff, operate, and maintain) without buying a pass. You can hike up and ride down the mountain all day without paying a cent. It's just not as fun
If they wanted to keep people off the mountain, they'd make you pay admission as you come onto the property, not inside the lodge.

Sounds reasonable. What is to stop oil company's from not allowing you to use their roads they build and maintain? How is that any different than the ski lifts? Just like the mountain, you are free to walk around the crown land all you want. Just curious,

[hal53]

Originally Posted by mulecrazy

Sounds reasonable. What is to stop oil company's from not allowing you to use their roads they build and maintain? How is that any different than the ski lifts? Just like the mountain, you are free to walk around the crown land all you want. Just curious,

Key part of your comment, is "that they build and maintain"..yes, they have a lease agreement for access and location, yes, they can restrict that if they choose (most don't)...as they HAVE to maintain it...and yes you are free to walk around all the crown land you want to,...access it from the next cutline on your feet, instead of wrecking the road after 3 days of rain to make it that extra 300 yds....that's where the p****ng matches occur....miles of public land around,,but guys insist they have to travel on "this" 90 ft. of it!!!!!!! because it's "theirs"

[honda450]

Originally Posted by hal53

....miles of public land around,,but guys insist they have to travel on "this" 90 ft. of it!!!!!!! because it's "theirs"

YUP.